The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Kessel is a consistent PPG player - he's done that for four years running. Kovalev was not that when he played with us; and he was complete disaster for two of four seasons in Montreal, bringing nothing but psychodrama. At least Kessel is reliably productive. I totally get the idea that Kessel is not a 'team concept' guy. Like I said before, IF his teammates are willing to carry him as a 'special case' - a gifted player to whom the normal rules don't apply - then there's no reason you can't win with a guy like that. If, by contrast, his teammates resent the special treatment and take their cue from him, then you should trade him, because you'll never win with that. The Lafleur parallel is interesting, although Guy Lafleur was a much more conscientious player than Kessel, which is why he is an all-time great and Kessel is not. Nevertheless, Flower always used to f**k up coaching drills because he could not follow a set play. The coaches would just put up with it. He was also an unhealthy party animal in a way that today's NHL would define as a "problem." And as Dryden's Game makes pretty clear, he definitely was a player apart on that team - a well-liked teammate, but definitely the golden child whose specialness everyone acknowledged. Ideally, Kessel would be an added ingredient to a fundamentally strong team, putting them over the top with his deadly offence. Toronto's problem is that they're trying to build a team around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I guess I should have written that a little better. On the ice, he really reminds me of lafleur. The blinding speed down the right side followed by a goal, pass, or brilliant chance. Also the lack of defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Kessel has 10% of the talent lafleur did. Guy was a generational player who for 6 years was one of the top 3 or 4 players in the game. The Habs did not have a set PP because lafleur was an artist that would create, based on what the opposition gave him. Team success and winning came first with Guy. He never dogged it in practice and pit extra time in practice on his own. Guy's problem was he was a heavy smoker and was a product of the disco 70's when fitness training wasn't where it is today. Kessel seems like such a moron that I doubt if he could spell win or team and I think he has the same opinion of practice as Ivereman - although again having 10% of his talent. A better comparable for Kessel is Pierre larouche. Talented goal scorer who was lazy and got by on his natural talent alone, and despite being a repeat 50 goal man, wouldn't be considered among the top 20 players of his generation. There is a reason why Kessel was the last player picked in the all-star game a few years back and will probably be among the last 5 or 6 this year. Kessel is a consistent PPG player - he's done that for four years running. Kovalev was not that when he played with us; and he was complete disaster for two of four seasons in Montreal, bringing nothing but psychodrama. At least Kessel is reliably productive. I totally get the idea that Kessel is not a 'team concept' guy. Like I said before, IF his teammates are willing to carry him as a 'special case' - a gifted player to whom the normal rules don't apply - then there's no reason you can't win with a guy like that. If, by contrast, his teammates resent the special treatment and take their cue from him, then you should trade him, because you'll never win with that. The Lafleur parallel is interesting, although Guy Lafleur was a much more conscientious player than Kessel, which is why he is an all-time great and Kessel is not. Nevertheless, Flower always used to f**k up coaching drills because he could not follow a set play. The coaches would just put up with it. He was also an unhealthy party animal in a way that today's NHL would define as a "problem." And as Dryden's Game makes pretty clear, he definitely was a player apart on that team - a well-liked teammate, but definitely the golden child whose specialness everyone acknowledged. Ideally, Kessel would be an added ingredient to a fundamentally strong team, putting them over the top with his deadly offence. Toronto's problem is that they're trying to build a team around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Kessel is a consistent PPG player - he's done that for four years running. Kovalev was not that when he played with us; and he was complete disaster for two of four seasons in Montreal, bringing nothing but psychodrama. At least Kessel is reliably productive. I totally get the idea that Kessel is not a 'team concept' guy. Like I said before, IF his teammates are willing to carry him as a 'special case' - a gifted player to whom the normal rules don't apply - then there's no reason you can't win with a guy like that. If, by contrast, his teammates resent the special treatment and take their cue from him, then you should trade him, because you'll never win with that. The Lafleur parallel is interesting, although Guy Lafleur was a much more conscientious player than Kessel, which is why he is an all-time great and Kessel is not. Nevertheless, Flower always used to f**k up coaching drills because he could not follow a set play. The coaches would just put up with it. He was also an unhealthy party animal in a way that today's NHL would define as a "problem." And as Dryden's Game makes pretty clear, he definitely was a player apart on that team - a well-liked teammate, but definitely the golden child whose specialness everyone acknowledged. Ideally, Kessel would be an added ingredient to a fundamentally strong team, putting them over the top with his deadly offence. Toronto's problem is that they're trying to build a team around him. yeah I can agree with all that. I definitely agree with there is no building a team around him. As to Lafleur Kessel should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Guy was one of kind all time great, who instincts are what set him apart from everyone and was probably why he didn't follow drills so good. He was 2 steps ahead all the time. It truly is too bad that he didn't look after himself better, he had more to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bostonhabs Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 If kessel was on this team and patches on the other kessel would be a lot better the patches. Hands down kessel is better with puck. He is not built to play like a power forward. Patches is and doesnt play like one. He is finally starting to hit again but he is no captain or should ever be. Does anyone here think patrick kane sucks? I wouldnt trade patches for kessel either based on money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I guess I should have written that a little better. On the ice, he really reminds me of lafleur. The blinding speed down the right side followed by a goal, pass, or brilliant chance. Also the lack of defense. Guy could and did back check with the best of them. Stole countless pucks off the opposition in the defensive zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Top five in scoring in three years. Ppg average. 1 point behind Ovechkin in three years. If this is not a model of consistency, I don't know what is. He is elite. There is just no other way of saying it. If Ovechkin Stamkos, Crosby are elite, so is he. His numbers do not lie. I still say he reminds me of guy. I love the way kessel plays. Super exciting. We haveny had a Kessel since Lafleur. Don't kid yourselves. I would take kessel any day on my team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Top five in scoring in three years. Ppg average. 1 point behind Ovechkin in three years. If this is not a model of consistency, I don't know what is. He is elite. There is just no other way of saying it. If Ovechkin Stamkos, Crosby are elite, so is he. His numbers do not lie. I still say he reminds me of guy. I love the way kessel plays. Super exciting. We haveny had a Kessel since Lafleur. Don't kid yourselves. I would take kessel any day on my team. yes but because of the cap you can only have a couple of 9 million dollar players.......and while kessel is good there are a lot of guys i would take over phil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 yes but because of the cap you can only have a couple of 9 million dollar players.......and while kessel is good there are a lot of guys i would take over phil. ya for sure. Paccioretty is better because of the contract. Also I am not saying kessel is as good as lafleur was. Just his style of play reminds me of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Top five in scoring in three years. Ppg average. 1 point behind Ovechkin in three years. If this is not a model of consistency, I don't know what is. He is elite. There is just no other way of saying it. If Ovechkin Stamkos, Crosby are elite, so is he. His numbers do not lie. I still say he reminds me of guy. I love the way kessel plays. Super exciting. We haveny had a Kessel since Lafleur. Don't kid yourselves. I would take kessel any day on my team. I never said I wouldn't have Kessel on the team. The question was which one would you take. I don't like kessel as a player, but he has great skill. Of course there is also the fact we can't afford him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Enough of the kessel Lafleur comparisons! Guy scored more points than every player in the league what 4 times. Guy scored like crazy yet set always set up more goal than he scored every year. He was voted mvp by the players. Con smythe. Phil kessel never did any of that and never will. No gm would have even considered trading Guy for two first rounders at any time in his career. Now the guy is a good sniper, who by the way while his team is currently struggling has disappeared and scored 1 goal in 15 games. None at even strength. Guy Lafleur....please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Kessel shouldn't ever, ever, ever be mentioned in the same conversation as LaFleur... now you stop that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If there were fines on this board, mentioning those two players in the same sentence would be a large one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I said it earlier in the the thread when pillsbury Kessel was mentioned in the same breath as Lafleur. Not a comparable. Lafleur's comparables are Greztzky, Lemieux, Dionne, the rocket. In other words the top 2 or 3 players of any generation. Kessel's comparables are lazy talented bums like Pierre Larouche. And even there, at least lazy Pierre won a cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree with you with everything except for the comment lafleur wouldn't be traded for draft picks. Rumour had it that Montreal offered lafleur and Robinson to Pittsburgh to try and draft Lemieux. Enough of the kessel Lafleur comparisons! Guy scored more points than every player in the league what 4 times. Guy scored like crazy yet set always set up more goal than he scored every year. He was voted mvp by the players. Con smythe. Phil kessel never did any of that and never will. No gm would have even considered trading Guy for two first rounders at any time in his career. Now the guy is a good sniper, who by the way while his team is currently struggling has disappeared and scored 1 goal in 15 games. None at even strength. Guy Lafleur....please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree with you with everything except for the comment lafleur wouldn't be traded for draft picks. Rumour had it that Montreal offered lafleur and Robinson to Pittsburgh to try and draft Lemieux. Interesting, never heard that one. But then again, Mario drafted in 84, Guy retired in 84 after 13 regular seasons and 13 play off seasons. But for Mario i can understand. I would have thrown in Gainey, Nazlund, and Chelios ..............and they still would have said no. Phil Espo offered his brother Tony (then pitt gm) his entire team for Mario. I said it earlier in the the thread when pillsbury Kessel was mentioned in the same breath as Lafleur. Not a comparable. Lafleur's comparables are Greztzky, Lemieux, Dionne, the rocket. In other words the top 2 or 3 players of any generation. Kessel's comparables are lazy talented bums like Pierre Larouche. And even there, at least lazy Pierre won a cup. well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree with you with everything except for the comment lafleur wouldn't be traded for draft picks. Rumour had it that Montreal offered lafleur and Robinson to Pittsburgh to try and draft Lemieux. Montreal originally attempted a Sam Pollock style drafting of him by getting Hartford's first round pick. Except they just didn't get bad enough and Montreal drafted Petr Svoboda instead. Both the Devils and Penguins tanked that season hard. There was also rumours in Hockey News that Montreal offered a package including Patrick Roy to the Quebec Nordiques in 1992 for Eric Lindros but it wasn't as good as the New York and Philadelphia packages. I really wish all that stuff was filmed similar to the 30 for 30 ESPN did about the Marino/Elway draft. Would love all the details on the offers made for Eric Lindros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Montreal originally attempted a Sam Pollock style drafting of him by getting Hartford's first round pick. Except they just didn't get bad enough and Montreal drafted Petr Svoboda instead. Both the Devils and Penguins tanked that season hard. There was also rumours in Hockey News that Montreal offered a package including Patrick Roy to the Quebec Nordiques in 1992 for Eric Lindros but it wasn't as good as the New York and Philadelphia packages. I really wish all that stuff was filmed similar to the 30 for 30 ESPN did about the Marino/Elway draft. Would love all the details on the offers made for Eric Lindros. That Roy rumour is an interesting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Montreal originally attempted a Sam Pollock style drafting of him by getting Hartford's first round pick. Except they just didn't get bad enough and Montreal drafted Petr Svoboda instead. Both the Devils and Penguins tanked that season hard. There was also rumours in Hockey News that Montreal offered a package including Patrick Roy to the Quebec Nordiques in 1992 for Eric Lindros but it wasn't as good as the New York and Philadelphia packages. I really wish all that stuff was filmed similar to the 30 for 30 ESPN did about the Marino/Elway draft. Would love all the details on the offers made for Eric Lindros. Very interesting. Yes it would be very interesting to hear all the offers in the lindros deal. I did hear but dont remember what the rangers offered. I do recall it was not very close to what philly offered. Yes the habs took Svoboda 5th that year. Corson 8th i believe. Richer in the second round. Roy in the third. Nice draft year by Serge. Claude Lemieux go that year too?? Within two years all of them were huge parts of a a stanley cup team. (corson the next year) Habs developed players very well back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 There's no doubt that Kessel is probably more talented then MaxPac, however, his lack of size, work ethic, bad attitude, lousy defensive skills would make me choose MaxPac over Kessel any day of the week. Let's not forget that Max makes about half of what Kessel makes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 There's no doubt that Kessel is probably more talented then MaxPac, however, his lack of size, work ethic, bad attitude, lousy defensive skills would make me choose MaxPac over Kessel any day of the week. Let's not forget that Max makes about half of what Kessel makes! yes and Phils main thing is he can score. Yet max scored two more goals than phil last year while playing 9 less games. also has two more goals than Phil this year, in tow less games. Max can keep up with Phil in bulging the twine........but surpasses him in other parts of his game. Half the salary. Max all the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If Kessel played with Datsyuk ( Lemaire) Paccioretty (Shutt) Weber (Robinson) Doughty (Lapointe) Chara (Savard) and Price (Dryden), I bet he would be a bit better than the fourth highest scoring player in the entire league over the last three years combined. He might even be first.... As I said three times. Lafleur was a multi year art ross winner, hart trophy winner, but in his generation if Dionne or Bossy were playing with the Habs, they would have had all those awards and been revered by us. I basically worshipped Lafleur in my childhood. He was my idol. I did not say that he is as good as lafleur or anything like that, just that the way he skates and moves offensively reminds me of him. His speed down the right side, his passing and shot. His offensive decision making. All elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Montreal originally attempted a Sam Pollock style drafting of him by getting Hartford's first round pick. Except they just didn't get bad enough and Montreal drafted Petr Svoboda instead. Both the Devils and Penguins tanked that season hard. There was also rumours in Hockey News that Montreal offered a package including Patrick Roy to the Quebec Nordiques in 1992 for Eric Lindros but it wasn't as good as the New York and Philadelphia packages. I really wish all that stuff was filmed similar to the 30 for 30 ESPN did about the Marino/Elway draft. Would love all the details on the offers made for Eric Lindros. The lindros deal was one for the ages. from refusing to go to quebec to having the league rule on the final trade. it was simply amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If Kessel played with Datsyuk ( Lemaire) Paccioretty (Shutt) Weber (Robinson) Doughty (Lapointe) Chara (Savard) and Price (Dryden), I bet he would be a bit better than the fourth highest scoring player in the entire league over the last three years combined. He might even be first.... As I said three times. Lafleur was a multi year art ross winner, hart trophy winner, but in his generation if Dionne or Bossy were playing with the Habs, they would have had all those awards and been revered by us. I basically worshipped Lafleur in my childhood. He was my idol. I did not say that he is as good as lafleur or anything like that, just that the way he skates and moves offensively reminds me of him. His speed down the right side, his passing and shot. His offensive decision making. All elite. I get that. The explosive speed down the wing. The shot etc. Apologies for miss interpreting your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Pax has still more upside in him. Kessel has seen his best days already. Not really a tough call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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