JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 This is how big teams get their big players. Why do you think Pittsburgh are so good right now? Because they finished last almost every season since 2002. How do you want to get big time players by finishing 15th every seasons? You'll always get the 15th best player available... The problem in Montréal is : Nobody wants to see us finishing in the bottom ranking. If that happens, everyone will scream for a change of GM, Coach, goaler, top forwards, even Youpie will have to go. So the team never upgraded, never won any cup since a decade, never finished at the very end of the ranking and everybody is happy because it's hot to watch hockey game at spring. Results : no big draft pick (maybe except Carey Price... we'll see...) in 2000, no Heatley, no Gaborik but a Marcel Hossa, in 2001 no Kovalchuck, no Spezza but a Komisarek (not so bad there), in 2002 no Nash, no Bouwmeester but a Chris Higgins (not so bad there too but...) in 2003 no Staal, no Fleury but a Kots, in 2004 no Ovechkin, no Malkin but a Chipchura, in 2005 thanks there was a lottery but no 3 tickets no chance for Crosby or J. Johnson, same for 2k6 no E. Johnson, no J. Staal, no Teows but Fisher... We NEED to finish in the last spots to upgrade. NOBODY will help us to upgrade by trading big players in Montréal for our 15th draft picks On the other hand, no cup won since a decade = less chances to see a UFA of quality sign here in Montreal because he feels this is our year... How do you feel about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Successful teams aren't built solely off 1st round draft picks. There are some players that dominate this league now were lower draft picks. Also, If we give up, and try for 30th, what kind of message does this send our young players? That we want to develop a fine tradition of losing? You've got a point, but there's gotta be another way. And there will be. :hlogo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Successful teams aren't built solely off 1st round draft picks. There are some players that dominate this league now were lower draft picks. Also, If we give up, and try for 30th, what kind of message does this send our young players? That we want to develop a fine tradition of losing? You've got a point, but there's gotta be another way. And there will be. :hlogo: Sabres are the team i'd want the Habs to be. But i dont see how we will become dominant as the Sabres, even in 2k9... Almost every others good teams, maybe not Nashville, have all-stars players in their lineup. Who is the last all-stars player we had? Yes Patrick Roy. and ooops we won 2 cups with him... Don't come and say Koivu is that star or even Kovy or Markov. Markov is not Lidstrom or Coffey. As i see it, when will we get a player such as Sakic, Lecavalier or Crosby ? And HOW ? A trade? Would you trade as a GM Lecavalier for somebody in our team? We have nothing to give. UFA? Do we have the money? Do the UFAs want to play here in Montreal? You'll say last year, Carolina and Edmonton didn't have so much big players. I'll say yes, but Carolina are a bunch of lucky and gross players who crash the net (even the goaltenders) and score crap shit goals. And Edmonton were on fire with, specially, Pronger (who's better than anyone in our team INCLUDING Markov. Talking about leadership and skills, these 2 teams were full of both. Here we got not much leadership and not much skills. Edited February 15, 2007 by JoeLassister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quebecois Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Almost every others good teams, maybe not Nashville, have all-stars players in their lineup. Who is the last all-stars player we had? Yes Patrick Roy. and ooops we won 2 cups with him... Don't come and say Koivu is that star or even Kovy or Markov. Markov is not Lidstrom or Coffey. Yeah we gotta be like Detroit, they are loaded with top flight draft picks... Ooops: Zetterberg, 210th overall Datsyuk 171 overall Holmstrom 257 Overall Lidstrom 53rd overall Its not when you draft, its how you draft. Sure its easy to look at Pittsburgh, but: 1. they got lucky and won the Crosby lottery, that is a generational talent that rarely comes along 2. Malkin was a can't miss 2nd overall selection Columbus has drafted 4th, 8th, 1st, 4th, 8th, 6th and 6th and look where its got them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Great Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Successful teams aren't built solely off 1st round draft picks. There are some players that dominate this league now were lower draft picks. Also, If we give up, and try for 30th, what kind of message does this send our young players? That we want to develop a fine tradition of losing? You've got a point, but there's gotta be another way. And there will be. :hlogo: Pittsburgh Penguins sure have been that way but then again They've basically won the lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) This is how big teams get their big players. Why do you think Pittsburgh are so good right now? Because they finished last almost every season since 2002. How do you want to get big time players by finishing 15th every seasons? You'll always get the 15th best player available... The problem in Montréal is : Nobody wants to see us finishing in the bottom ranking. If that happens, everyone will scream for a change of GM, Coach, goaler, top forwards, even Youpie will have to go. So the team never upgraded, never won any cup since a decade, never finished at the very end of the ranking and everybody is happy because it's hot to watch hockey game at spring. Results : no big draft pick (maybe except Carey Price... we'll see...) in 2000, no Heatley, no Gaborik but a Marcel Hossa, in 2001 no Kovalchuck, no Spezza but a Komisarek (not so bad there), in 2002 no Nash, no Bouwmeester but a Chris Higgins (not so bad there too but...) in 2003 no Staal, no Fleury but a Kots, in 2004 no Ovechkin, no Malkin but a Chipchura, in 2005 thanks there was a lottery but no 3 tickets no chance for Crosby or J. Johnson, same for 2k6 no E. Johnson, no J. Staal, no Teows but Fisher... We NEED to finish in the last spots to upgrade. NOBODY will help us to upgrade by trading big players in Montréal for our 15th draft picks On the other hand, no cup won since a decade = less chances to see a UFA of quality sign here in Montreal because he feels this is our year... How do you feel about that? Sure the last 7-8 years have yielded studs at 1st overall, but you need great trades, great free agent signings and great scouting to win the cup. All 3 are integral. Take a look at the last 5 stanley cup winners. Other than the Avs/Nordiques they have not relied on tanking to get them top picks. The Wings and Devils are head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to homegrown development and it shows in their results! 2006 Champions - Carolina Hurricanes Other than Eric Staal the rest came through trades, late picks and Free Agent signings. Ladd was 4th overall but did not exactly make our break their run 2nd Overall - Eric Staal 4th Overall - Andrew Ladd 25th Overall - Cam Ward 75th Overall - Erik Cole 91st Overal - Josef Vasicek 97th Overall - Nic Wallin 2004 Champions - Tampa Bay Lightning Lecavlier was the first overall pick but Brad Richards was stolen in the 3rd round, St. Louis was signed as a Free Agent and Boyle and Khabibulin were acquired through good trades 1st Overall - Vincent Lecavlier 179th Overall - Pavel Kubina 64th Overall Brad Richards 2003 Champions - New Jersey Devils If you want a team the proves your theory wrong here is the team. Even though they got Niedermayer at 3rd overall it came from a trade with Toronto for Tom Kurvers. All the rest of their impact players were drafted after number 20. Look at the players the Devils drafted and turned into other assets over the last 15 years: (Brain Rolston/Jason Smith/Sergei Brylin/Stephane Yelle/Brendan Morrison/SHELDON SOURAY/Steve Sullivan/Alyn McCauley/Chris Mason/Willie Mitchell/Mike Commodore. All of these players drafted after the first round. The only high pick they had that led to Stanley Cup glory was Shanahan in 87 at #2 which ended up netting them Scott Stevens. 3rd Overall - Scott Niedermayer 20th Overall - Martin Brodeur 27th Overall - Scott Gomez 49th Overall - Colin White 51st Overall - Patrick Elias 82nd Overall - Brain Gionta 2002 Champions - Detroit RedWings Once again superb drafting in later rounds and a different system in whcih they could spend money shaped this franchise...not tanking and getting a high pick. The other high pick that benefitted them was Keith Primeau at #3 who was traded for Shanahan. 4th Overall - Steve Yzerman 53rd Overall - Nik Lidstrom 74th Overall - Sergei Fedorov 59th Overall - Mathieu Dandenault 171st Overall - Pavel Datsyuk 210th Overall - Henrik Zetterberg 2001 Champions - Colorado Avalanche You have to go to the Quebec Nordiques and their futility to prove tanking or stinking helped build a winner. 1 Mats Sundin 1 Owen Nolan 1 Eric Lindros Those picks helped shape the team in that they acquired Forsberg/Ozolinsh/Claude Lemieux through those players, but they also made some great picks among their core and trades....I don't have to bring up the Patrick Roy fleecing. 15th Overall - Joe Sakic 22nd Overall - Adam Foote 72nd Overall - Chris Drury 87th Overall - Milan Hejduk 12th Overall - Alex Tanguay It is an excuse to claim that we do not get impact players because we do not suck bad enough. Where was Patrick Roy drafted? Where was Jose Theodore drafted? If you employ good scouts and develop properly from within you can still win a Stanley Cup. How many 1st overall picks turned out to be disasters and the reward for tanking turned out to be: Roman Hamrlik ALexandre Daigle Bryan Berard Chris Phillips Patrik Stefan All excuses. The Senators stunk for 5 years got top 5 picks every year and still have trouble getting through the second round and cannot beat a Toronto team who has been absolutely horrendous in developing homegrown talent. Edited February 15, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Yeah we gotta be like Detroit, they are loaded with top flight draft picks... Ooops: Zetterberg, 210th overall Datsyuk 171 overall Holmstrom 257 Overall Lidstrom 53rd overall Its not when you draft, its how you draft. Sure its easy to look at Pittsburgh, but: 1. they got lucky and won the Crosby lottery, that is a generational talent that rarely comes along 2. Malkin was a can't miss 2nd overall selection Columbus has drafted 4th, 8th, 1st, 4th, 8th, 6th and 6th and look where its got them... I like how 3 of those players are swedes. Swedes are way to underated at the drafts. Say what you want but I would like to say that swedes are the hardest working hockeyplayers in the world. In the swedish league the floaters are allways imports from central-east europe. Forget those easteurope draftpicks and use them on scandinavian Viking warhorses instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mont Royale Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Who is the last all-stars player we had? Yes Patrick Roy. and ooops we won 2 cups with him... Roy was drafted 51st overall. But yeah, great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 The fact of the matter is that Patrick Roy is the only superstar this organization has had since Guy Lafleur. They have had some excellent hockey players, but not game changing players like Lafleur and Roy. Smith, Naslund, Chelios (maybe have been great, but was not in MTL long enough), Muller, Damphousse, Turgeon, Koivu, Dejardins, were all good hockey players but not great ones. I agree with Joe Lassister, that this team definitley could use a 1st of 2nd overall pick to get that superstar, but I don't agree that Montreal should tank just to get it, ala the Ottawa Senators. Just look at the Carolina Hurricanes. Eric Staal turned that organization around. Just like Pittsburgh's last 4 drafts have turned that organization into a potential dynasty, if they add the right parts this trade deadline and offseason, and provided they make the playoffs this year. Unfortunatley for them there windown of opportunity is small since Fleury, Crosby , Malkin and Staal will all eventually have to sign 2nd contracts in the next 3 years with Malkin and Crosby probably getting the league maximums and the team being broken up. I've said for the last 4 years and longer maybe that Montreal has been 1 offensive player (a centre) away from being an excellent team. Since Guy Lafleur they have lacked that consistant scoring threat, that draws the other teams best checkers and allows the other lines more space and time to score goals., ie. the player that makes everyone around them better. Having said that with the drafting in the last 10 years, Montreal has missed alot of opportunites drafting wise to improve this club. They have missed out on the likes of Gomez, Datsyuk, Richards, Bergeron, Frolov, Gagne etc. Guys who were not top 10 picks or not even top 20. But then again 28 other teams missed out on alot of these guys as well. Sometimes 2 or 3 times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Do you really want a first this season? From everything I understand, the quality of the draft keeps sinking lower and lower the closer we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Do you really want a first this season? From everything I understand, the quality of the draft keeps sinking lower and lower the closer we get. 2009 First overall would net you John Tavares! You are either selling the present, or selling the future. Unfortunately, we are caught in the middle somewhere Edited February 15, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Yeah we gotta be like Detroit, they are loaded with top flight draft picks... Ooops: Zetterberg, 210th overall Datsyuk 171 overall Holmstrom 257 Overall Lidstrom 53rd overall Its not when you draft, its how you draft. Sure its easy to look at Pittsburgh, but: 1. they got lucky and won the Crosby lottery, that is a generational talent that rarely comes along 2. Malkin was a can't miss 2nd overall selection Columbus has drafted 4th, 8th, 1st, 4th, 8th, 6th and 6th and look where its got them... Exactly where i wanna go. I can't wait for a 3rd rounder to become a super star for the Canadien. But from what i see right now, our recents top draft picks with the big team will never be all-stars players and only Grabovski and Price have a chance to do so. Drafting has been the real lack of the Habs so far. People are talking about rebuilding. Fine but we need much than Higgins and Komi to rebuild this team. We have 3 goalers in the system who can potentially play in NHL. Price, Halak and Danis. With Huet and Aebisher on the team it makes 5. Trade one of them to go get 1rst or 2nd overall pick who WANTS to play hockey (not like Daigle or Stefan) and THEN, we will can call this rebuilding the team. I'm tired to see the others teams draft the World Junior all-stars players and let us the members of the 3rd line of team Canada. And if one of them happens to become a 1rst line center or the next Lidstrom FINE. The Canucks were not affraid to move for the Sedin Brothers. Why couldn't we do the same. Because fans will be furious about trading good players like Kots or Perez to improve the team in 4 years... Gotta set the priorities and mine isn't to make the playoffs ; it's to win th Cup soon. But that won't happen til we stop finishing 8th or 7th and get those Higgins and Komi to "rebuild" the team. The fact of the matter is that Patrick Roy is the only superstar this organization has had since Guy Lafleur. They have had some excellent hockey players, but not game changing players like Lafleur and Roy. Smith, Naslund, Chelios (maybe have been great, but was not in MTL long enough), Muller, Damphousse, Turgeon, Koivu, Dejardins, were all good hockey players but not great ones. I agree with Joe Lassister, that this team definitley could use a 1st of 2nd overall pick to get that superstar, but I don't agree that Montreal should tank just to get it, ala the Ottawa Senators. Just look at the Carolina Hurricanes. Eric Staal turned that organization around. Just like Pittsburgh's last 4 drafts have turned that organization into a potential dynasty, if they add the right parts this trade deadline and offseason, and provided they make the playoffs this year. Unfortunatley for them there windown of opportunity is small since Fleury, Crosby , Malkin and Staal will all eventually have to sign 2nd contracts in the next 3 years with Malkin and Crosby probably getting the league maximums and the team being broken up.I've said for the last 4 years and longer maybe that Montreal has been 1 offensive player (a centre) away from being an excellent team. Since Guy Lafleur they have lacked that consistant scoring threat, that draws the other teams best checkers and allows the other lines more space and time to score goals., ie. the player that makes everyone around them better. Having said that with the drafting in the last 10 years, Montreal has missed alot of opportunites drafting wise to improve this club. They have missed out on the likes of Gomez, Datsyuk, Richards, Bergeron, Frolov, Gagne etc. Guys who were not top 10 picks or not even top 20. But then again 28 other teams missed out on alot of these guys as well. Sometimes 2 or 3 times AMEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 2009 First overall would net you John Tavares! You are either selling the present, or selling the future. Unfortunately, we are caught in the middle somewhere Additionally, 2008 brings Jared Staal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 I say we trade to get our franchise player, we will probably pay a steep price but we can then truly build around someone. Candidates could be... - Marleau - Lecavalier - Cammalleri The list could go on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Sure the last 7-8 years have yielded studs at 1st overall, but you need great trades, great free agent signings and great scouting to win the cup. All 3 are integral. How do we get great trade without great players to offer, how do we sign great free agent when the team always makes the playoffs by 1 point or 2, how do we scout great players by choosing 10th or 11th ???? Do you think the 9 first teams will ignore the great player to become that we will draft 10th? Do you think the best UFA will sign a long term contract with a 8th spot team who has 38 reporters surrounded him in the shower? Do you think our best players (who were 8th or 10th overall pick back in the days) worth much than their own value? I say we trade to get our franchise player, we will probably pay a steep price but we can then truly build around someone. Candidates could be... - Marleau - Lecavalier - Cammalleri The list could go on and on. Cammalleri is a player Bob could get right now. But don't name him just under Marleau and Lecavalier please. We just said that Damphousse and Turgeon were nice but not Super Stars, as Cammalleri. Cammalleri would just help the Habs to make the playoffs by finishing 8th or 7th... I trully believe in our chance to make playoffs, and then, who know what can happen? But there is MUCH chances to see the Devils or the Sabres (and this is only in the East) win the Cup this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 2009 First overall would net you John Tavares! You are either selling the present, or selling the future. Unfortunately, we are caught in the middle somewhere If we were in 2008, I'd give Halak, Kovalev, Perezhogin, Locke and our 2009 1rst and 2nd rounds draft picks to see Tavares with a Habs jersey. But this ain't gonna happen until we will decide (and by "we", I mean Bob, Guy, Pierre Boivin, George Gilletts, all the sports reporters, the fans, the trashtalkers on RDS.ca and all the wannabe Gainey of the whole Québec) that we don't only want to make the playoffs, but we want the BEST TEAM of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Cammalleri is a player Bob could get right now. But don't name him just under Marleau and Lecavalier please. We just said that Damphousse and Turgeon were nice but not Super Stars, as Cammalleri. Cammalleri would just help the Habs to make the playoffs by finishing 8th or 7th... I trully believe in our chance to make playoffs, and then, who know what can happen? But there is MUCH chances to see the Devils or the Sabres (and this is only in the East) win the Cup this season. Ack I was thinking Frolov and put Cammalleri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) How do we get great trade without great players to offer, how do we sign great free agent when the team always makes the playoffs by 1 point or 2, how do we scout great players by choosing 10th or 11th ???? Do you think the 9 first teams will ignore the great player to become that we will draft 10th? Do you think the best UFA will sign a long term contract with a 8th spot team who has 38 reporters surrounded him in the shower? Do you think our best players (who were 8th or 10th overall pick back in the days) worth much than their own value? You know how many great players were drafted after #10 in the Draft? I just listed a ton of All-Stars. You know how many terrible players were drafted before #10 in the Draft? The draft is a crap shoot, you are looking back at the Drafts and identifying players after they have blossomed. Hindsight is 20/20. Do you think if they redid the 1984 draft that Patrick Roy would go at number 51? Have you ever heard of Craig Redmond, David Quinn, Trevor Stienburg, Roger Belanger, Dave Pasin? Would you pick Ed Olczyk, Al Iafrate, Shawn Burr, Doug Bodger and JJ Daigneualt ahead of Patrick Roy? All of these players were valued as better picks than Roy in 1984. The Number 1 pick ended up with Mario Lemieux, the number 3 pick was Al Iafrate???? It is not a science. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1984e.html What does making the playoffs have to do with ability to sign Free Agents? It is about money. If you have the money to offer they will come. Unfortunately Montreal has to overpay, but be that as it may, you cannot make mistakes. Samsonov was a mistake, but only a 2 year mistake. The Leafs have just as many reporters in their face as the Habs do and they attract Free Agents. Montreal may be a shitty place to play when you are losing but it is also a great place to play when you are winning. If we had better drafts than we would be a better team. Simple as that. Edited February 15, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ack I was thinking Frolov and put Cammalleri. Would be a VERY nice start... Frolov is one of the most underestimaded players of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Would be a VERY nice start... Frolov is one of the most underestimaded players of the league. Frolov is gradually shaking that image. He has really turned it on and now has 30 goals. It would be nice if San Jose were going to give up either Thornton or Marleau, but its not going to happen. They have money under the cap, several million and will eventually either dump Toskala or Nabokov, creating even more space and allowing them to sign their young guns to long term contracts, Bernier, Cheechoo and Michalek. Thronton is probably more likely of the two to become available if he tanks in the playoffs this year like he always has, but the one two punch of Thornton/ Marleau is hard to trade away. So scratch Marleau Lecavalier is not going anywhere. Feaster has said he will not be the guy who trades away Vinny Lecavalier and Feaster isn't going anywhere anytime soon. This guy is having a career year and is just entering his prime. Richards of the 3 (Vinny, St,Louis (no trade clause) and Richards is the guy that would move but he's untradeable at $7.8 Million a year for 5 years. As for Cammalleri, it has been said by Los Angeles management that he is untouchable, so he's not oging anywhere. Finding that #1 or #2 centre is the hardest thing in the NHL right now. T hey are few and far between. Its easier to trade for a good defensman right now than it is a good centre. THe only two that might become available in the offseason are Pavel Datsyuk and Scott Gomez. Neither will be moved at the deadline because of New Jersey and Detroits runs for the Stanley Cup. Both may be available in the offseason due to salary cap concerns, but both teams may move other players to free up room for these guys. As well, the salary cap is projected to rise almost $4 Million dollars. I really do not see the Habs making a move for a centre simply because none will be a available. None that can help them anyways. The best bet may be to move Souray, Kovalev, Bonk and Rivet for high draft picks and prospects and maybe look at making a deal at the draft to move up the board either this year or next year to try and land either Esposito or Tavares. Fill the spots with Grabovksi, Kostitsyn, and maybe a prospect defensman for now and see how they play. But I think the sad reality is that no moves are going to be made because Gainey doesn't want to give away his youth. The only postive that I can think of, is that Gainey was very quite before is last few deals and then all the sudden trades happened. Gainey seems to be awfully quite right now, and projects to be quieter with him not talking to the media......perhaps another suprise is in store. I will be plesantly suprised if a trade happens and horribly crushed if it doesn't. Edited February 15, 2007 by kaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) You know how many great players were drafted after #10 in the Draft? I just listed a ton of All-Stars. You know how many terrible players were drafted before #10 in the Draft? . Hindsight is 20/20. Do you think if they redid the 1984 draft that Patrick Roy would go at number 51? Have you ever heard of Craig Redmond, David Quinn, Trevor Stienburg, Roger Belanger, Dave Pasin? Would you pick Ed Olczyk, Al Iafrate, Shawn Burr, Doug Bodger and JJ Daigneualt ahead of Patrick Roy? All of these players were valued as better picks than Roy in 1984. The Number 1 pick ended up with Mario Lemieux, the number 3 pick was Al Iafrate???? It is not a science. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1984e.html What does making the playoffs have to do with ability to sign Free Agents? It is about money. If you have the money to offer they will come. Unfortunately Montreal has to overpay, but be that as it may, you cannot make mistakes. Samsonov was a mistake, but only a 2 year mistake. The Leafs have just as many reporters in their face as the Habs do and they attract Free Agents. Montreal may be a shitty place to play when you are losing but it is also a great place to play when you are winning. If we had better drafts than we would be a better team. Simple as that. Blue : you're a nice 36 years old player, let's say Bill Guerin or Marc Recchi. You want to have a chance to win a Stanley Cup before retiring. Where are you gonna sign ? I'm sure not in Montréal. Red : TOTALLY AGREE Strange pink and purple colour : You don't seem to understand my point. I don't care at all about all the picks before a 30th pick who become a superstar. I do understand the draft is sometimes pure luck. But.... Have you ever heard of : Thornton, Marleau, Olli Jokinen, Lecavalier, Legwand, Sedin's, Heatley, Gaborik, Dipietro, Kovalchuck, Spezza, Nash, Boowmeester, Fleury, Staal's, Nathan Horton, Ovechckin, Malkin, Crosby ? These players were all top 3 overall picks back to 1997 http://www.nhl.com/futures/. Now, let's compare them with Jason Ward, Eric Chouinard ( I KNOW FOR GAGNÉ AND GOMEZ), Ron Hainsey, Komisarek (don't forget Kovalchuck and Spezza on this draft), Chris Higgins (i love him), Andrei Kastsitsyn, Chipchura, i'll skip Price, and Fisher. You have a WAY BETTER chance to rebuild your team with top 3 overall than with 10th overall picks. Now, if these 10th or more overall picks become some superstars, we can be happy and claim we have good scouts. Good for Detroit, New Jersey and for the man who said "common boss let's choose Robitaille it's almost midnight". I'm not " looking back at the Drafts and identifying players after they have blossomed" as you said, I'm just saying it worth almost nothing to draft 10th and be eliminated in 1rst playoffs round instead of missing the playoffs and draft Ilya Kovalchuk or won the Crosby Lottery. Bottom line. Edited February 15, 2007 by JoeLassister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Blue : you're a nice 36 years old player, let's say Bill Guerin or Marc Recchi. You want to have a chance to win a Stanley Cup before retiring. Where are you gonna sign ? I'm sure not in Montréal. Red : TOTALLY AGREE Strange pink and purple colour : You don't seem to understand my point. I don't care at all about all the picks before a 30th pick who become a superstar. I do understand the draft is sometimes pure luck. But.... Have you ever heard of : Thornton, Marleau, Olli Jokinen, Lecavalier, Legwand, Sedin's, Heatley, Gaborik, Dipietro, Kovalchuck, Spezza, Nash, Boowmeester, Fleury, Staal's, Nathan Horton, Ovechckin, Malkin, Crosby ? These players were all top 3 overall picks back to 1997 http://www.nhl.com/futures/. Now, let's compare them with Jason Ward, Eric Chouinard ( I KNOW FOR GAGNÉ AND GOMEZ), Ron Hainsey, Komisarek (don't forget Kovalchuck and Spezza on this draft), Chris Higgins (i love him), Andrei Kastsitsyn, Chipchura, i'll skip Price, and Fisher. You have a WAY BETTER chance to rebuild your team with top 3 overall than with 10th overall picks. Now, if these 10th or more overall picks become some superstars, we can be happy and claim we have good scouts. Good for Detroit, New Jersey and for the man who said "common boss let's choose Robitaille it's almost midnight". I'm not "The draft is a crap shoot, you are looking back at the Drafts and identifying players after they have blossomed" as you said, I'm just saying it worth almost nothing to draft 10th and be eliminated in 1rst playoffs round instead of missing the playoffs and draft Ilya Kovalchuk or won the Crosby Lottery. Bottom line. Thornton - 0 Cups (playoffs 2 series wins/6 series losses) Marleau - 0 CUps (playoffs 3 series wins/7 series losses) Olli Jokinen - 0 Playoff games Lecavalier - 1 Cup Legwand - 0 Cups (playoffs 0 series wins/2 series losses) Sedin's - 0 Cups (playoffs 1 series wins/5 series losses) Heatley - 0 Cups (playoffs 1 series wins/1 series losses) Gaborik - 0 Cups (playoffs 2 series wins/1 series losses) Dipietro - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Kovalchuck - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Spezza - 0 Cups, (playoffs 1 series wins/2 series losses) Nash - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Boowmeester - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Eric Staal - 1 Cup Nathan Horton - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games I can see how tanking and getting the top players leads to amazing success. Some of these STARS have never even made the playoffs. Tanking and getting high picks is no guarantee of success. Pittsburgh caught a miracle when they drafted Crosby. If Montreal had won that lotto instead we would not even be having this discussion. In the New NHL Pittsburgh has a 4 year window to win or those 4 players are going to eat the cap and they will have to lose 1 or 2 of them. 20 years ago the Pens would be set up for an Oiler type run. Things have changed. We are a borderline team and I would rather rebuild right now, but we do not have players who are so desirable that we can trade them for top picks or players. So we have to hold onto our youth and hope that some turn into stars and some turn into good 2nd liners. If Price becomes a Star and Lats as well then we have to make all the right moves in Free Agent signings. Lecavalier was drafted in 97 and won the Cup 7 years later. So on our time frame we tank next year, get a top 3 and wait another 7 years for Stanley? I think we are closer than that right now. We have one of the highest rated minor league systems in the NHL, all we need is a couple of those to turn into frontline NHLers and we will begin to make some noise. Edited February 15, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Thornton - 0 Cups (playoffs 2 series wins/6 series losses) Marleau - 0 CUps (playoffs 3 series wins/7 series losses) Olli Jokinen - 0 Playoff games Lecavalier - 1 Cup Legwand - 0 Cups (playoffs 0 series wins/2 series losses) Sedin's - 0 Cups (playoffs 1 series wins/5 series losses) Heatley - 0 Cups (playoffs 1 series wins/1 series losses) Gaborik - 0 Cups (playoffs 2 series wins/1 series losses) Dipietro - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Kovalchuck - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Spezza - 0 Cups, (playoffs 1 series wins/2 series losses) Nash - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Boowmeester - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Eric Staal - 1 Cup Nathan Horton - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games I can see how tanking and getting the top players leads to amazing success. Some of these STARS have never even made the playoffs. Tanking and getting high picks is no guarantee of success. Pittsburgh caught a miracle when they drafted Crosby. If Montreal had won that lotto instead we would not even be having this discussion. Normal because every top picks go to worst teams first, then improve the team, just like Pittsburgh and Washington are doing, and maybe, win a cup or two. You have a way better chance to win the Cup by being drafted 27th by the Red Wings and play your rookie season with Lidstrom, Shanahan, Fedorov and Yzerman. What you say makes no sense. On the other hand, this is a team game and it's not Luongo's, Jokinen's and Boowmeester's fault if the Panthers were strugling. A team win a Stanley Cup, not a player. But with better players, you have better chances to win the Cup. And Pittsburgh didn't caugh a miracle to draft Crosby, they were one of the 3 or 4 teams who had 3 tickets in the pot. Why?? because they finished last in the previous seasons. Edited February 15, 2007 by JoeLassister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Normal because every top picks go to worst teams first, then improve the team, just like Pittsburgh and Washington are doing, and maybe, win a cup or two. You have a way better chance to win the Cup by being drafted 27th by the Red Wings and play your rookie season with Lidstrom, Shanahan, Fedorov and Yzerman. What you say makes no sense. On the other hand, this is a team game and it's not Luongo's, Jokinen's and Boowmeester's fault if the Panthers were strugling. A team win a Stanley Cup, not a player. But with better players, you have better chances to win the Cup. And Pittsburgh didn't caugh a miracle to draft Crosby, they were one of the 3 or 4 teams who had 3 tickets in the pot. Why?? because they finished last in the previous seasons. You are saying the way to rebuild is through the draft, with top Draft picks. All those guys are top draft picks, and only 2 of them won the cup. Losing is no guarantee of future success. Tampa Bay did not win the CUp because of Lecavalier. They won the Cup because they drafted Richards/Kubina with value picks, they picked up the MVP off the junk heap as a Free Agent, they traded an average young defenseman Paul Mara for Nikolai Khabibulin, they stole Dan Boyle out from under FLorida's nose. All those other moves were more responsible for the Cup then the Micheal Jordan of hockey. Being handed the top pick does not guarantee a bloody thing. Rob Ramage Doug Wickenheiser Dale Hawerchuk Gord Kluzak Brian Lawton Mario Lemieux Wendel Clark Joe Murphy Pierre Turgeon Mike Modano Mats Sundin Owen Nolan Eric Lindros Roman Hamrlik Alexandre Daigle Ed Jovanovski Bryan Berard Chris Phillips Joe Thornton Vincent Lecavalier Patrik Stefan Rick DiPietro Not many Stanley Cup Champions there with the team that drafted them. Lecavalier/Modano/Mario Lemieux That is over 20 years. 4 championships out of 20 seasons. A 20% success rate. Yep, I am on board. Now take a look at the Conn Smythe winners in the last 20 years and check their average draft position. These were the top 10 Draft choices: Mario Lemiuex, Scott Stevens, Steve Yzerman. You can add Gretzky in there as he would have been a top pick but he was undrafted. Edited February 15, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Kosmos Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 This is how big teams get their big players. Why do you think Pittsburgh are so good right now? Because they finished last almost every season since 2002. How do you want to get big time players by finishing 15th every seasons? You'll always get the 15th best player available... The problem in Montréal is : Nobody wants to see us finishing in the bottom ranking. If that happens, everyone will scream for a change of GM, Coach, goaler, top forwards, even Youpie will have to go. So the team never upgraded, never won any cup since a decade, never finished at the very end of the ranking and everybody is happy because it's hot to watch hockey game at spring. Results : no big draft pick (maybe except Carey Price... we'll see...) in 2000, no Heatley, no Gaborik but a Marcel Hossa, in 2001 no Kovalchuck, no Spezza but a Komisarek (not so bad there), in 2002 no Nash, no Bouwmeester but a Chris Higgins (not so bad there too but...) in 2003 no Staal, no Fleury but a Kots, in 2004 no Ovechkin, no Malkin but a Chipchura, in 2005 thanks there was a lottery but no 3 tickets no chance for Crosby or J. Johnson, same for 2k6 no E. Johnson, no J. Staal, no Teows but Fisher... We NEED to finish in the last spots to upgrade. NOBODY will help us to upgrade by trading big players in Montréal for our 15th draft picks On the other hand, no cup won since a decade = less chances to see a UFA of quality sign here in Montreal because he feels this is our year... How do you feel about that? I'd prefer if the time we finish 30th isn't during a season in which we occupied the 4th pkace in the conference at the half-way point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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