Shu Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 This could be connected to the NBC thread but i think it deserves its own thread. The stats are amazing, the NHL wasn't made for the US Link #1 Link #2 thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 No big surprise, the NHL marketing plan is worthless. They have great commercials but only air them during hockey games, advertising the sport to people already watching it. They have two of the most marketable players since Mario and Wayne in Sid and Alex, but they aren't pumping those two up as much as possible. With their poor marketing, it's a wonder US fans even know the lockout is over. With proper marketing and a good strategy, they won't have to worry about low TV ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mils Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 It's a niche sport in the states, we all know this. It doesn't get any respect on ESPN (the only U.S. source of sports information), so it's doomed to not have overwhelming national appeal. Hopefully Nashville moves back to Canada (Hamilton) and the NHL expands IN CANADA, because the U.S. hockey market is already pretty well saturated. Unfortunately, it's mostly the NHL's fault that the sport didn't eclipse basketball when it had the chance. For explanation on that, re-read Fanpuck's posst, he nailed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Does it need to be a niche sport? Nope. But it will be until Bettman leaves. The following things need to change: 1. As mentioned already, advertise outside of games. Spend a little money and put some ads during Sunday Night Football and NBC primetime shows. Heck, try to advertise during Sportscenter. 2. Go back to ESPN. As much as I like Versus and the fact that they actually care about hockey, it's not good for the sport to have them on there. I'm lucky enough to get Versus as part of my basic cable, but most people don't. ESPN may treat hockey like crap, but the only way that people are gonna know hockey even exists come playoff time is to have it on ESPN. 3. Get rid of the instigator rule and stop discourage fighting. Bettman always talks about how fighting hurts them bring in a US audience. Bull freaking crap. Let's see here: In baseball fans love it when guys rush the mound and when managers go nuts arguing a call. In football, players try and knock the crap out of the ball carrier. In NASCAR, lots of people watch only in anticipation of crashes. The more violent UFC has surpassed boxing in popularity. I'd care to bet that if you poll the people in a US hockey arena, at least 80% would say they want to see at least one fight. 4. This one I've also mentioned, but make Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin household names. Put them in commericials. Get them sponsorship ads. Put them on cereal boxes. These two are extremely talented and marketable players, use them to help the league. I know that I've only seen Ovechikin play a few times, but I always look forward to seeing him off the ice, he's hilarious. That was the highlight of the awards show last year, when they interviewed these two. And then at the draft, they let Alex announce Washington's pick and everyone loved it. Market these two to non-hockey fans. 5. Stop even thinking of expanding. There are 24 US teams and still nobody is watching. What is getting more US teams going to do? Nothing. All it would do is allow roster spots for more AHL quailty players to water down the talent in the league, making for a less exciting game. The Cup has been won by three straight sun belt teams, let that sink in. Those three teams along with Nashville have all seen increased attendance since before the lockout. Let these teams take seed and grow a fan base. That should be what the NHL concentrates on at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 I heard that the Food Network's "Build a Better Burger" beat out game 4 in ratings. Now that's pathetic. Don Cherry is right. More Rock 'em is needed but it's too late. This is what I think of when I imagine Bettman trying to explain this: Homer: I saw you pouring your heart and soul into this business and getting nowhere. I saw you desperately trying to cram one more salty treat into America's already bloated snack hole. So I did what I could. I did what any loving husband would do! I reached out to some violent mobsters. Translated: Bettman: I saw you pouring your heart and soul into this business and getting nowhere. I saw you desperately trying to cram one more sport entertainment into America's already bloated sports & television world. So I did what I could. I did what any loving commissioner would do! I reached out to change and expand the game. And, it's so true, "America's already bloated sports & television world" is hard to break into and they've gone about this ALL WRONG! At least us fans can watch "Build a Better Burger" this summer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PasTrep03 Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 The TV ratings in the US are awful, and definitly were during the finals this year, but there's a reason. Ottawa vs. Anaheim is a very lame matchup, especially in the US. Here you have a northern Canadian team, and a team from Calfiornia. Not exactly a hugely exciting matchup. Put something in there like Detroit vs. Toronto, or Chicago vs. Montreal (ooh, now there's a good one ) or basically anything involving the NY Rangers, and you'll get people watching. The finals the past few years have been pretty lame duck matchups. Calgary vs. Tampa? Edmonton vs. Carolina? Ottawa vs. Anaheim? Bleh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 And, it's so true, "America's already bloated sports & television world" is hard to break into and they've gone about this ALL WRONG! You mean break back into it. Back in 1993 when Bettman took over, the NHL was about on par with the NBA, and some thought it might actually surpass it. The NBA was reeling after Jordan's first retirement, Bird's retirement, and Magic's HIV and subsequent retirement. They had just lost their three most notable players within a span of two years, bringing down all the notability the league garnered with the Bulls' three-peat. The NHL, at that time, was having its best US success yet. The league's most well-known players were doing wonders for the league. The Penguins had just won two Cups under Mario and Wayne Gretzky had just made to the finals with a West Coast team. Then, Bettman happened. His first season as Commissioner was played without a CBA in place and one of his first acts was to break tradition and dump the names of the divisions and conferences. The season itself was a success, with the popular Rangers winning the Cup on Messier's famous guarantee. However, as a result of no CBA, the league had a lockout that canceled half the next season. Things have been down hill ever since in terms of the sport's popularity. Ottawa vs. Anaheim is a very lame matchup, especially in the US. Here you have a northern Canadian team, and a team from Calfiornia. Not exactly a hugely exciting matchup. Put something in there like Detroit vs. Toronto, or Chicago vs. Montreal (ooh, now there's a good one ) or basically anything involving the NY Rangers, and you'll get people watching. I never understood that line of reasoning. Why would the average Joe be more likely to watch New York or Chicago than Anaheim? I've never understood why anyone would be more willing to watch a high profile city's team play than a lower profile city's team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PasTrep03 Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 I never understood that line of reasoning. Why would the average Joe be more likely to watch New York or Chicago than Anaheim? I've never understood why anyone would be more willing to watch a high profile city's team play than a lower profile city's team. I guess it's because I'm a fan of an Original 6 team is why I think that way. I don't know, I just find the teams with long history about them more interesting then teams based off a Disney kids movie. Maybe the average person might not find it interesting. Thing is, a final featuring teams like that hasn't happened in a long time. The last Original 6 team in the finals was Detroit, and their opponent was a "low market" team like Carolina, and the last 3 finals have all featured that too. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 It's not just us. http://deadspin.com/sports/duan/apparently...sses-267490.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chips Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 It's not just us. http://deadspin.com/sports/duan/apparently...sses-267490.php I'm confused about this too. I was underthe impression that the NBA was a big deal for the US market. Low rates in the NBA could be a sign of worse things to come. The US economy is slowing down and this maybe translating in the major league sporting numbers. I wonder how baseball is fairing this year, from attendance to viewer ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Nascar ratings are also down. TV in general has ratings going down. If you also ask most "average" people, or even just a casual fan, most will also add this: Shorten the season. Most people wonder why hockey carries into June. The season (including playoffs) should be done before Memorial Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Great Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Here's what I'd do after my imposed Armageddon Eastern Conference Buffalo New Jersey Ottawa Pittsburgh New York Toronto Montreal Boston Philadelphia Washington Hartford Quebec City Toronto Montreal Ottawa Quebec Boston Hartford New York Buffalo New Jersey Philadelphia Pittsburgh Washington Western Conference Detroit Vancouver Hamilton Dallas Minnesota Calgary Colorado St-Louis Edmonton Chicago Los Angeles Winnipeg St-Louis Detroit Hamilton Chicago Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Winnipeg Colorado Minnesota Dallas Los Angeles Like I said this would be my 'restart'. NHL would go back to regional (minus the col-min-dallas-la they just don't fit anywhere) rivalries. Regionalism NHL has to downsize 24 teams. Nascar ratings are also down. TV in general has ratings going down. If you also ask most "average" people, or even just a casual fan, most will also add this: Shorten the season. Most people wonder why hockey carries into June. The season (including playoffs) should be done before Memorial Day. I disagree. The reason why nobody knows anything about hockey anymore is because expansion has caused teams the average person on the street has never heard of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_faerie87 Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Here's what I'd do after my imposed Armageddon Eastern Conference Buffalo New Jersey Ottawa Pittsburgh New York Toronto Montreal Boston Philadelphia Washington Hartford Quebec City Toronto Montreal Ottawa Quebec Boston Hartford New York Buffalo New Jersey Philadelphia Pittsburgh Washington Western Conference Detroit Vancouver Hamilton Dallas Minnesota Calgary Colorado St-Louis Edmonton Chicago Los Angeles Winnipeg St-Louis Detroit Hamilton Chicago Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Winnipeg Colorado Minnesota Dallas Los Angeles Like I said this would be my 'restart'. NHL would go back to regional (minus the col-min-dallas-la they just don't fit anywhere) rivalries. Regionalism NHL has to downsize 24 teams. Tampa Bay, Carolina and Anaheim will all stay. The league is not going to move/get rid of a modern Cup-winning franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Great Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Tampa Bay, Carolina and Anaheim will all stay. The league is not going to move/get rid of a modern Cup-winning franchise. And give me a real reason why they should stay? which LA team do you want to go? Kings or Ducks? Your stuck in Gary Bettman world. Its not working. Hell I'd chop the Devils up and they've won all the cups. Screw modern cup wins. I'm talking about sustainability in the NHL. Like it or not those teams are the loose fat teams that can be trimmed. They'll always be on the cup. So be it. We here in the states tore down the projects that were a massive failure in planning. The NHL needs to do the same to its expansion teams from the 90s. The league must downsize and move teams back to where they would succeed. Where there is support. There is no actual support outside a few fans who go to the arena. That's not real support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_faerie87 Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 And give me a real reason why they should stay? which LA team do you want to go? Kings or Ducks? Your stuck in Gary Bettman world. Its not working. Hell I'd chop the Devils up and they've won all the cups. Screw modern cup wins. I'm talking about sustainability in the NHL. Like it or not those teams are the loose fat teams that can be trimmed. They'll always be on the cup. So be it. We here in the states tore down the projects that were a massive failure in planning. The NHL needs to do the same to its expansion teams from the 90s. The league must downsize and move teams back to where they would succeed. Where there is support. There is no actual support outside a few fans who go to the arena. That's not real support. Last time I checked, Bettman was still running the show, so I guess it's a good sign that I'm stuck in Gary Bettman world. Jokes aside, from my knowledge, Carolina and Tampa Bay are among the most successful southern teams (I would include Nashville too) and they're starting to build up a solid fan base. The only teams I would say who are "on the bubble" would be Phoenix and Florida (maybe Atlanta too, but I don't know much about them). And while I do agree that the league should probably downsize in order to concentrate talent, I'm not so sure if it will happen. I'm not a huge sports fan (aside from hockey), but have any major sports leagues downsized in the past 15-20 years or so? Sports is a business and generally speaking, more teams = more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Great Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Nashville can't sell out games. They've got the worse fan attendance in the NHL. I don't call that 'support'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Great Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Last time I checked, Bettman was still running the show, so I guess it's a good sign that I'm stuck in Gary Bettman world. Jokes aside, from my knowledge, Carolina and Tampa Bay are among the most successful southern teams (I would include Nashville too) and they're starting to build up a solid fan base. The only teams I would say who are "on the bubble" would be Phoenix and Florida (maybe Atlanta too, but I don't know much about them). And while I do agree that the league should probably downsize in order to concentrate talent, I'm not so sure if it will happen. I'm not a huge sports fan (aside from hockey), but have any major sports leagues downsized in the past 15-20 years or so? Sports is a business and generally speaking, more teams = more money. The NBA did sort of when they were all in financial trouble. The NHL has a history of down grading because they grow too big too quickly. There were a ton of teams before the 'original 6' era. But then they all folded or were folded do to financial reasons. And some were 'stanley cup winners'. So to say that just because a franchise that shouldn't exist won a cup they must stay is a funny argument. Nascar is really close to downsizing. CART broke up F1 downsized MLB wanted to dissolve teams and still might NBA has some troubled franchises, they just move them around (always have and always will) NFL has moved teams MLS has dissolved teams but the NFL is profitable. Baseball is kept alive because its the 'national past time' and the NBA is popular now only because of the college game and international viewers from China and around the world. The bubble has burst guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 23rd actually. http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 23rd actually. http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2007 Not to mention the fact that their attendance has increased dramatically the last few years. From 77% to 84% to 89%. Hockey is growing there. And then there is New Jersey, who I always like to bitch about their fan support. Terrible fan support at home, and yet they are the 5th best road draw in the league. and the NBA is popular now only because of the college game and international viewers from China and around the world. The NBA isn't exactly popular. Even with all the hype from ESPN and ABC, game 1 of the series was the third lowest rated finals game in history. And this is a series including one of the most popular and most hyped players in the sport. It's a series basketball fans should be watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 can't help that they are playing their divisional games against the attendance sinkhole that is the Central Division. Outside of Detroit, there really isnt much draw there. Note to Fanpuck - as much as I find the Bluejackets interesting, that sentiment does not seem to be echoed by ticket buyers. The NBA isn't exactly popular. Even with all the hype from ESPN and ABC, game 1 of the series was the third lowest rated finals game in history. And this is a series including one of the most popular and most hyped players in the sport. It's a series basketball fans should be watching. c'mon puck, there is no way that you could expect PTG to know that... it's not like somebody posted a link in the thread pointing out the dismal viewing figures for NBA games... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 can't help that they are playing their divisional games against the attendance sinkhole that is the Central Division. Outside of Detroit, there really isnt much draw there. Note to Fanpuck - as much as I find the Bluejackets interesting, that sentiment does not seem to be echoed by ticket buyers. Speaking of the Central and attendance, I read that the Wings didn't sell out a single playoff game. And they call themselves Hockeytown? And yeah, when Rick Nash isn't kicking ass, there's no reason to pay to watch the Jackets. c'mon puck, there is no way that you could expect PTG to know that... it's not like somebody posted a link in the thread pointing out the dismal viewing figures for NBA games... I disagree with that article. Watching games on TiVo/DVR is awesome. You play around for the first hour while the game is taping and then you skip right through commercials and half time and finish right on time. Or you can pause at halftime, play football for an hour at halftime, come back and do the same thing. Awesomeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_faerie87 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 The NBA did sort of when they were all in financial trouble. The NHL has a history of down grading because they grow too big too quickly. There were a ton of teams before the 'original 6' era. But then they all folded or were folded do to financial reasons. And some were 'stanley cup winners'. So to say that just because a franchise that shouldn't exist won a cup they must stay is a funny argument. Nascar is really close to downsizing. CART broke up F1 downsized MLB wanted to dissolve teams and still might NBA has some troubled franchises, they just move them around (always have and always will) NFL has moved teams MLS has dissolved teams So let's see, only three leagues have gotten rid of teams...and two of them were racing related. I didn't say teams wouldn't get moved, but rather destroyed altogether. Also, I made a point that no "modern-age Stanley Cup winners" have been moved. The economy wasn't stable enough before then to guarantee that a team could stay. Today, this is less of an issue. Not to mention the fact that their attendance has increased dramatically the last few years. From 77% to 84% to 89%. Hockey is growing there. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Great Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Oh NBA is in trouble. But you know what, they have a track record of turning things around. The problem with the NBA is that its been defensive dominated for years. And that's horrible boring basketball. Phoenix and Dallas are the only teams that are actually trying to change that image. Then the other big problem is that LeBron is in Cleveland and the East is pathetic. But the NBA stays in the spotlight because it is hyped to death. NBA has huge issues. NBA cares more about kids in China watching instead of somebody in Louisville. Its been like this for years. But the NBA has a track record of turning it around. NHL has bigger problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chips Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) Ok... so gambling and sports is taboo to talk about but the reality is that everyone gambles on sports and in the US; the nba and basketball in general has a load of gambling around it. SO the way I see it, if we not necessarily encourage it but certainly not prevent it. Gambling on NHL games and promoting it maybe another way of getting some buy in, by the US. A team in Vegas might also provide a good foot hold in that way of thinking. But I am quite confident that if we simply; re-organize and stabilized; allow growth and development to occur in the current markets we can see a long term stable NHL. Furthermore, mini-tourney that either has money attached to it or re-wards to the city or team would also be another angle to promote in the US. The different bowl games in college football is a hit and promotion around it is brilliant. Golf has big cash weekend tourney's that attract loads of media attention and sponsorship dollars; and wow the gambling around those events. So the way I see it; lets modify the already long season to include a regional battle that occurs in four month groupings that gives braggin' rights or a cash reward to the city or team; That kind of marketing and media attention could bring the NHL into the forefront of US ratings and translate into a viable NHL market. OK... I'm not saying modify our current model drastically, but a small adjustment to play regional teams that could play in four months but also include those games towards the total 82 and everyone continues to play inter-conference and battle for the cup as the ultimate reward. It would encourage regional battles that people can related to and allows the US to experience what we in Canada already have with our long standing rivalries.. but this model would help speed up the process. Lets create hype around our league to bring people into the fold. When they get a taste for the rivalry and thrill of enjoying a good game they will be hooked. Anyway, I've probably had too many beer tonight and just needed to speak outta my ass; since I cannot believe whats being discussed on the "yashin in montreal" thread. I think I'm going to go out back and puke now.! Edited June 14, 2007 by Chips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PasTrep03 Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Nashville can't sell out games. They've got the worse fan attendance in the NHL. I don't call that 'support'. I get what you're saying, but Nashville isn't last. St. Louis is last. Still though, I agree. Nashville is a failure hockey market, since their a good team and can't even sell out. The Blues at least used to get pretty good crowds when they were still a decent team. Why doesn't anyone ever mention Washington moving? Of all places that has awful fan support, it's the Capitals. Their fan support during the Cup run in 1998 was a joke, and they've never been had a consistant sellout streak, even when they were good. The city of D.C. also pays no attention to the Capitals at all. The local media is all Redskins, and when it isn't football, it's the Wizards, and if not the Wizards, it's prime time preparing for the Nationals to start (or Expo's is more like it ). D.C. is a horrible hockey market. Move them even before New Jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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