Nilan Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 last summer a number of us were discussing whether Sheldon had sold out, screwed the habs, etc. Think this article clarifies a little bit why he wanted to go back to Alberta. Losing him was a great move in hindsight, but I miss that shot and his willingness to take anyone on.... http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/stor...&id=3220618 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 That's a nice story. I always liked Shelly and was sad to see him go. So were many of the female fans of the Habs. He was just a stand-up guy, he stuck up for his teammates and represented the team well. Having said that, we're in much better shape with Hamrlik taking up that cap-space. As great as Shelly is, he's not worth what we were going to pay him, and him in Edmonton for five years at 5.4 million per season is just another feather in Lowe's cap as the worst GM in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Well, that's the nature of free agency, lots of players want to play in their hometowns and Souray was no exception. Can't really blame him for that. If it came down to dollars and cents, I think Montreal offered more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 him in Edmonton for five years at 5.4 million per season is just another feather in Lowe's cap as the worst GM in the league. Worst GM in the league? Activly trying to make your team better makes you a bad GM? Losing Souray for nothing makes you a shitty GM, sitting on your hands because you don't have the balls to do something makes you a shitty GM. In a few years after this rebuilding period Oilers will be a very talented team and that is when Sourays leadership and contract will really be tested. Right now they wouldnt make the playoffs with a team almost entirely of rookies anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 To this day I wonder if Bob jerked Souray around intentionally. Sure, he made him a sound offer, but only after he'd alienated Souray with a lowball deal. Hamrlik is SOOOOO much better - he has single-handedly stabilized our defence. Sheldon Who, I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) Worst GM in the league? Activly trying to make your team better makes you a bad GM? Losing Souray for nothing makes you a shitty GM, sitting on your hands because you don't have the balls to do something makes you a shitty GM. In a few years after this rebuilding period Oilers will be a very talented team and that is when Sourays leadership and contract will really be tested. Right now they wouldnt make the playoffs with a team almost entirely of rookies anyhow. I think you're the only one on these boards who feels this way. It's clear that almost everyone here is happy that Souray did not re-sign with the habs, Hamrlik does a way better job. Let's not forget that Souray is injury prone. He's already missed something like 1/2 his teams games this season. Alot of help he is to his teammates when he's always injured! Not only is Hamrlik Light years ahead of Souray in terms of defensive awareness, but he has twice as many points as Sheldon this year. Not bad! Edited February 5, 2008 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I thin you're the only one on these boards who feels this way. It's clear that almost everyone here is happy that Souray did not re-sign with the habs, Hamrlik does a way better job. Let's not forget that Souray is injury prone. He's already missed something like 1/2 his teams games this season. Alot of help he is to his teammates when he's always injured! Not only is Hamrlik Light years ahead of Souray in terms of defensive awareness, but he has twice as many points as Sheldon this year. Not bad! Well, the real criticism is that Bob should have dealt Souray at the deadline and gotten an asset back. A fair criticism and a serious one, although I understand Bob's defence, which is that he refused to send the signal to his team that the organization was throwing in the towel on the playoffs. I'm sure the players respect that. (Also, Gainey was likely gambling that a playoff appearance would strengthen his hand in attracting Briere or other high-powered UFA help. Turns out Hamrlik was all we needed ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I thin you're the only one on these boards who feels this way. It's clear that almost everyone here is happy that Souray did not re-sign with the habs, Hamrlik does a way better job. Let's not forget that Souray is injury prone. He's already missed something like 1/2 his teams games this season. Alot of help he is to his teammates when he's always injured! Not only is Hamrlik Light years ahead of Souray in terms of defensive awareness, but he has twice as many points as Sheldon this year. Not bad! You have me wrong, I NEVER wanted Souray to resign with us. All I wanted was to get a decent package for him. A couple prospects or picks would have made me very happy. Everyone knows how terrible Souray was defensivly and he will never change. I am just angry we lost him for nothing. For Edmonton Souray actually will work if he can stay healthy, they desperatly need that veteren leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 You have me wrong, I NEVER wanted Souray to resign with us. All I wanted was to get a decent package for him. A couple prospects or picks would have made me very happy. Everyone knows how terrible Souray was defensivly and he will never change. I am just angry we lost him for nothing. For Edmonton Souray actually will work if he can stay healthy, they desperatly need that veteren leadership. Easier said than done. Last year at this time, half the posters wanted Bob to re-sign Souray, the other half wanted him to trade the guy. It was a lose-lose situation for Bob. If he would have traded him, it would have given a bad signal to the rest of the team, so he dcided to keep him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Worst GM in the league? Activly trying to make your team better makes you a bad GM? Oh yeah, he's the worst in the league. Look what he got back for the captain, heart and soul, and face of the franchise last year. And all because they were maybe half a million per year apart in what they wanted, and now he's resigned with a division rival. Look what they got back for Pronger, one of the best D-men in the league that instantly brought a Cup to Anaheim. Look at the likely top 5 pick they're giving to Anaheim in reportedly the best draft class in years because Lowe was panicking, plus a 2nd and a 3rd rounder later on. San Jose traded Toskala and Bell for that package (although the 3rd is a 4th in that deal), but Lowe thought Dustin Penner is worth it. He's lucky that Buffalo matched his offer and he's not stuck with Vanek for a ridiculous sum. Plus Souray is overpaid for four more years, but that's the least of his blunders. JFJ could have challenged for the title of the worst in the league, but now that he's gone the crown goes to Lowe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The Pronger deal was very fair, especially considering Pronger had publicly asked for a trade and the Smyth trade was fair value though he shouldn't have been traded. But I don't think Hamrlik has really done that much more than Souray did for us. Hamrlik played like a #1 defenceman for the first half of our games so far and then he's been an ordinary player since then, being replaced by Josh Gorges of all people. He really hasn't been the same as he was at the start of the season and I really miss what Souray brought to us, especially when you see our guys getting bullied around by Ryan Hollweg and all the Bruins' goons. I think that Hamrlik has been an upgrade on Souray only because Roman complements the rest of our team whereas our team is good enough offensively to not need a Souray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The Pronger deal was very fair, especially considering Pronger had publicly asked for a trade and the Smyth trade was fair value though he shouldn't have been traded. I don't feel like they got enough out of either of those deals. Maybe he was handcuffed by Pronger publicly asking for a trade, but still the return wasn't that good considering Pronger's stature as one of the top 3-4 D-men in the league. The Smyth trade also seemed a little weak, as most of the other rentals garnered a better return. But I don't think Hamrlik has really done that much more than Souray did for us. Hamrlik played like a #1 defenceman for the first half of our games so far and then he's been an ordinary player since then, being replaced by Josh Gorges of all people. He really hasn't been the same as he was at the start of the season and I really miss what Souray brought to us, especially when you see our guys getting bullied around by Ryan Hollweg and all the Bruins' goons. I think that Hamrlik has been an upgrade on Souray only because Roman complements the rest of our team whereas our team is good enough offensively to not need a Souray. I agree that Hamrlik has been pretty ordinary on the whole for the last month and a half. But we haven't seen the Souray blunders from him. Hamrlik's ordinary defensive work is better than Souray's subpar defensive work. It is really not worth it to have such a highly paid defenseman who isn't very good in his own end. I agree that I miss Souray's presence and character. Gotta love Shelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Oh yeah, he's the worst in the league. Look what he got back for the captain, heart and soul, and face of the franchise last year. And all because they were maybe half a million per year apart in what they wanted, and now he's resigned with a division rival. Look what they got back for Pronger, one of the best D-men in the league that instantly brought a Cup to Anaheim. Look at the likely top 5 pick they're giving to Anaheim in reportedly the best draft class in years because Lowe was panicking, plus a 2nd and a 3rd rounder later on. San Jose traded Toskala and Bell for that package (although the 3rd is a 4th in that deal), but Lowe thought Dustin Penner is worth it. He's lucky that Buffalo matched his offer and he's not stuck with Vanek for a ridiculous sum. Plus Souray is overpaid for four more years, but that's the least of his blunders. JFJ could have challenged for the title of the worst in the league, but now that he's gone the crown goes to Lowe. Smyth wasn't worth that cash, if he was so damn shook up about leaving edmonton he should have accepted a slightly lower offer and gave his team a better chance to sign other talent but he was greedy. The guy is a grinder who sits in front of the net and gets garbage goals, hardly worth 6 million and who knows how long his body will be able to keep it up. Not that big of a loss but they should have traded him for sure but they didn't know at the time. Penner could turn out to be a elite power forward in the league and Anaheims draft choices could flop and not even play in the nhl. We wont know for 3 or 4 years how those deals turn out. Right now Penner is on pace to have another good year. The Pronger thing was covered, he had to be moved no choice. He did move Lupul too soon and that was a mistake and might not have gotten great value for Pronger but hindsight right? He has the courage to put out and offer sheet and you have to respect that. The oilers are loaded with young talent so putting out some picks to get nhl ready players isnt a big deal to them. So they have Souray as their bloated contract, find me a team that doesnt have a big contract they regret! Kovalev was ours last year. In a couple years when the Oilers are developed then we can say whether or not he was a bad GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Smyth wasn't worth that cash, if he was so damn shook up about leaving edmonton he should have accepted a slightly lower offer and gave his team a better chance to sign other talent but he was greedy. The guy is a grinder who sits in front of the net and gets garbage goals, hardly worth 6 million and who knows how long his body will be able to keep it up. Not that big of a loss but they should have traded him for sure but they didn't know at the time. Penner could turn out to be a elite power forward in the league and Anaheims draft choices could flop and not even play in the nhl. We wont know for 3 or 4 years how those deals turn out. Right now Penner is on pace to have another good year. The Pronger thing was covered, he had to be moved no choice. He did move Lupul too soon and that was a mistake and might not have gotten great value for Pronger but hindsight right? He has the courage to put out and offer sheet and you have to respect that. The oilers are loaded with young talent so putting out some picks to get nhl ready players isnt a big deal to them. So they have Souray as their bloated contract, find me a team that doesnt have a big contract they regret! Kovalev was ours last year. In a couple years when the Oilers are developed then we can say whether or not he was a bad GM. No, I don't have to respect giving out an offer sheet. It's a bad move unless the player is really worth it. I'm not sure Penner is worth it, and we'll see how these three picks that Anaheim got back turn out. But if the deal was done today I seriously doubt that there are many, if any, GMs who would give up a top 5 pick plus a 2nd and 3rd rounder straight up for Penner. It's bad enough to eat the cap-space on a young unproven player, but losing the picks is a very bad move for the new NHL where you always need cheap young players to compete under the cap. Lowe's just lucky that they're not giving 3 first rounders to Buffalo and having Vanek flounder in Edmonton for 7 million a year. I agree that the Oilers have some good young talent, but this certainly wasn't the season to be breaking the bank. If they had profited from their mediocrity this year with a lottery pick they'd be in much better shape down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) No, I don't have to respect giving out an offer sheet. It's a bad move unless the player is really worth it. I'm not sure Penner is worth it, and we'll see how these three picks that Anaheim got back turn out. But if the deal was done today I seriously doubt that there are many, if any, GMs who would give up a top 5 pick plus a 2nd and 3rd rounder straight up for Penner. It's bad enough to eat the cap-space on a young unproven player, but losing the picks is a very bad move for the new NHL where you always need cheap young players to compete under the cap. Lowe's just lucky that they're not giving 3 first rounders to Buffalo and having Vanek flounder in Edmonton for 7 million a year. I agree that the Oilers have some good young talent, but this certainly wasn't the season to be breaking the bank. If they had profited from their mediocrity this year with a lottery pick they'd be in much better shape down the road. Edmonton is well under the cap and has piles of cheap young talent. If Penner turns out to be an elite power forward like say Bertuzzi before the incident then they will be laughing. A couple picks for a Bertuzzi is a steal. They took the gamble and now we will see if it pans out. You also gotta remember that Edmonton needs high skilled talent to draw in not only investors but fans and other free agents. Kevin Lowe boldly stated that he is unwilling to accept mediocrity with these offer sheets and that is appealing to talented players. This is just a rebuilding time, you know something that the leafs should have done atleast once in the last 40 years. edit: I just found this on another site... Was Kevin stupid when he got Pronger for Brewer, Lynch, Woywitka or Samsonov for reasoner Rollie for a first Tarnstrom for Rita Spacek for Salmelian Lowe has gotten some 1st class talent to join his team through trades so other than getting Huet and Hamrlik I really don't see how much better Gainey has done. Edited February 5, 2008 by OneSharpMarble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I liked Souray, a very entertaining player but his weaknesses were glaring. I wasn't broken up to see him go, mostly was worried about who would fill the hole (always iffy landing a good UFA dman) but Hamrlik does very nicely. You have the same toughness, the point production is offset by all the goals Hamrlik's better D play has prevented and the goal production has been filled by all the other players who stepped up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Edmonton is well under the cap and has piles of cheap young talent. If Penner turns out to be an elite power forward like say Bertuzzi before the incident then they will be laughing. A couple picks for a Bertuzzi is a steal. They took the gamble and now we will see if it pans out. You also gotta remember that Edmonton needs high skilled talent to draw in not only investors but fans and other free agents. Kevin Lowe boldly stated that he is unwilling to accept mediocrity with these offer sheets and that is appealing to talented players. This is just a rebuilding time, you know something that the leafs should have done atleast once in the last 40 years. edit: I just found this on another site... Lowe has gotten some 1st class talent to join his team through trades so other than getting Huet and Hamrlik I really don't see how much better Gainey has done. I guess Lowe maxed out his intelligence in 2006, he did make some key moves that got that team into the playoffs and then they went on a crazy run. But Penner turning into Bertuzzi is about as likely as saying whoever Anaheim drafts, if it's Doughty or Pietrangelo or someone else, will turn out to be a very good player and maybe better than Penner. And then there are the two other picks. Like I said, I doubt many GMs would go for that trade this year. Who knows what they'd do in the future, maybe Penner's game improves significantly, maybe Anaheim drafts an all-star. And Penner's signing didn't change Edmonton's mediocrity. Yeah they're rebuilding now and they've been bad recently which has helped in getting young talent, but keeping top 5 picks is exactly what a rebuilding team should do (like the Leafs should have, I don't know why you brought them up because getting an RFA and giving up picks would be a terrible move for them). Edmonton has cap-space, but you don't just fill that as quickly as you can. You build from within and see which way the cap-space should be used. That's what Gainey has done, and although he's not perfect or the best in the league, he's definitely better than Lowe and you can look at our current situation to attest to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Lowe has gotten some 1st class talent to join his team through trades so other than getting Huet and Hamrlik I really don't see how much better Gainey has done. I'd toss Kovy into the better pick up bin by Gainey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 But I don't think Hamrlik has really done that much more than Souray did for us. Hamrlik played like a #1 defenceman for the first half of our games so far and then he's been an ordinary player since then, being replaced by Josh Gorges of all people. He really hasn't been the same as he was at the start of the season and I really miss what Souray brought to us, especially when you see our guys getting bullied around by Ryan Hollweg and all the Bruins' goons. I think that Hamrlik has been an upgrade on Souray only because Roman complements the rest of our team whereas our team is good enough offensively to not need a Souray. I think you're right about that one. Hamrlik doesn't bring the intangibles that Souray had and he has not been as good as he was during the first part of the year. On the other hand, I loved that Souray was sticking up for his teammates, but he has a bum shoulder and getting into fights usually cost him time on the shelf. I think you're right in that Souray is not as missed because the team has done very well offensively without him, largely thanks to Markov picking up the slack as an offensive blueliner. Still, in the ideal world I would have liked the team to kept have both, but the way Gainey handled the situation was a bit bizarre. First- not trading him, second- screwing around with a lowball offer, and then third - a desperation throw the money at him offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'd toss Kovy into the better pick up bin by Gainey. Yeah last year we'd have all liked to toss him in the bin alright. But now that his game is turned around and he actually gives a damn it is good to have him. Maybe he felt either he stepped it up or he would be moving for the last part of his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm a little confused as to what tangibles Souray brought exactly? A big shot, i agree. other then that he was worthless. Physical play: Hands down Hamrlik, way tougher Fighting: Souray got in a few but he didn't stick up that much, Gorges does more sticking up for his team mates. Hamrlik isn't a fighter Passing: Hamrlik way better Plus Minus: Hamrlik hands down. Souray worst in the league Winning battles: Hamrlik again Leadership: Hamrlik, the numbers don't lie, he leads by example. So I'll take Hamrlik any day of the week over Souray, he was so over rated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAKS-AVENUE Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 To this day I wonder if Bob jerked Souray around intentionally. Sure, he made him a sound offer, but only after he'd alienated Souray with a lowball deal. Hamrlik is SOOOOO much better - he has single-handedly stabilized our defence. Sheldon Who, I say. Whether Bob low balled Souray or not, I'm glad it went down the way it did, and I don't think it was intentional. Gainey offered what he felt Souray was worth and then some because he's a more then fair man. Once Hammer came into the picture I think Bob was hoping Souray would decline or maybe even took the deal off the table. Look how quickly Hammer inked once Souray accepted Edmonton's offer. Not to mention Sheldon's been injured all season.....while we are chasing 1st place. Nice save Bob!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 It sure would have been nice to have one more 1st round pick though eh guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilan Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Physical play: Hands down Hamrlik, way tougher Waaa?? Fighting: Souray got in a few but he didn't stick up that much, Gorges does more sticking up for his team mates. Hamrlik isn't a fighter Waaaa?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm a little confused as to what tangibles Souray brought exactly? A big shot, i agree. other then that he was worthless. Physical play: Hands down Hamrlik, way tougher Fighting: Souray got in a few but he didn't stick up that much, Gorges does more sticking up for his team mates. Hamrlik isn't a fighter Passing: Hamrlik way better Plus Minus: Hamrlik hands down. Souray worst in the league Winning battles: Hamrlik again Leadership: Hamrlik, the numbers don't lie, he leads by example. So I'll take Hamrlik any day of the week over Souray, he was so over rated. That's ridiculous and you know it. How exactly do the "numbers don't lie" as to Hamrlik's leadership?? There's no leadership numbers Souray was the assistant captain, was he not? Oh, but Hamrlik's leadership "numbers" are better? Anyhow - to each his own, but I thought Souray was a better leader and stuck up for his teammates - that's the intangibles I was referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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