HabsWEST Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Many are talking about trading HALAK, and his " perceived value" by other teams: Most likely return: 2nd round pick, or a 3rd line player. Lets take another approach ( eventhaugh Gainey et AL, will not be doing this) First question: HOW much better is PRICE over HALAK? Second question: How Much more could we get from a trade with PRICE vs HALAK? Third question: 5 years from now, who will be the better goalie ? ( total guess)....and impossible to answer The perceived value for PRICE is substantially higher, and teams will offer a premium.... How much better would the HABS be with a " top 3 player" and HALAK in net, vs PRICE in net and a 3rd liner... TOTAL SPECULATION: and assuming he could be signed first, ( NOWAY if he wouldnt be signed) KOVALYCHUK for PRICE, ? or a similiar trade? Could the habs get this type of player this year for PRICE, or has his value started to come down.. IS PRICE another Felix Potvin, Jimmy Waite, Jim Carey....etc...huge potential and early results that soon went out of the league... IS PRICE another Sean Burke, decent keeper, but just above average? IS PRICE another Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Hasek? now, IS HALAK a more secure player to hold on to...does he become another Vokoun? weigh that against his downside vs PRICE, and potential for HABS to obtain a marquis player now? Is HALAK another Howard, Fernandez, good career backups? I always remember 4 years ago to this day BRENT SUTTER CUTTING CAREY PRICE and keeping JUSTIN POGGE and DEVON DUBYNK, ( after Montreal drafts Price 5th overall...and Brent Sutter being credited as saying PRICE needs to be more competitive. ( DECEMBER 2005 ) THE STORY goes: the day of the last cuts, there was an OPTIONAL MORNING PRACTICE, and CAREY PRICE WAS THE ONLY PLAYER THAT DIDNT SHOW UP, AND HE WAS QUOTED AS SAYING HE PREFERS NOT TO PRACTICE DAY OF GAME, for a game later that evening. Or the year after he was drafted PRICE was off to a slow start, and seen that he didnt have to work as hard for TRI CITY because he had been drafted.... There always has been the quotes, from other coaches, and scouts, PRICE biggest problem is his lack of intensity or focus, he has a very " laissez Faire " attitude and is seen at times and misinterpreted as " poor work ethic" and needs to be constantly motivated. I dont know....but these have always persisted, ( the following year Price comes back and is motivated to prove he shouldnt have been cut) and rest is history.. Glimpses show constant lapses in his performances, A coach I once new always asked " Does a leopard ever change his spots" hmmmm.... AFTER HALAK is traded, What becomes of PRICE and his performance.. Clearly a HALAK trade and what the HABS get back will be of less value than retaining HALAK. But more importantly: A PRICE TRADE will substantially garner much greater returns NOW, and with HALAK in net, THAN: the other way around, and the risk factor of PRICE in the future...given past results... BUT AS THEY SAY " the HIGHER THE RISK, THE HIGHER the RETURN" you decide, THAUGHTS? ****Question is, RISK in TRADING or KEEPING PRICE? Probably the single most important factor in the success of this franchise for the NEXT DECADE, and people will look back on this....PRICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRADED while his value was HIGH, or BEST TRADE GAINEY EVER MADE was NOT TRADING PRICE....***** Edited December 17, 2009 by HabsWEST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafikz Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Trade both of them and get Lecavalier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 IS PRICE another Felix Potvin, Jimmy Waite, Jim Carey....etc...huge potential and early results that soon went out of the league... IS PRICE another Sean Burke, decent keeper, but just above average? Yeah, let's completely ignore the possibility that Price can be an excellent starter or even a star goalie down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 It will never happen. Thank God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Yeah, let's completely ignore the possibility that Price can be an excellent starter or even a star goalie down the road. Wow... to not even include it as an option... Just wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I agree with Fanpuck. Where is the option of Price becoming elite like Roy, Brodeur or Luongo? All three of those guys struggle from time to time and let in bad goals. How many times did Roy get scored on from outside the blueline? Too many to count! Price is our cornerstone, our franchise player. He is outright dominant at times. In terms of high end potential Price is miles ahead of Halak. Price plays better and better as the season progresses even in the face of seeing 40 plus pucks per night. We need to keep him and let him develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The more I read that first post the more ridiculous it gets. The whole thing reads with such an obvious bias... it's written as if it's already preordained that Price will fall, but the other GMs don't know it yet. And Kovalchuk for Price! So Price will suck, but no other GMs know it yet, so let's get a franchise player for him before they realize it. If this were my site, I'd ban this guy. This is perhaps the worst post I have ever read on this site. jackp makes better arguments against Price than this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HabsWEST Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 The more I read that first post the more ridiculous it gets. The whole thing reads with such an obvious bias... it's written as if it's already preordained that Price will fall, but the other GMs don't know it yet. And Kovalchuk for Price! So Price will suck, but no other GMs know it yet, so let's get a franchise player for him before they realize it. If this were my site, I'd ban this guy. This is perhaps the worst post I have ever read on this site. jackp makes better arguments against Price than this! WOW, relax people....Read my POST: DIDNT I SAY this would never happen....and what did I post in BOLD...just another point of reference.. I even went back and clarified the analogy, wow.... I am a big PRICE fan....even when he was drafted....so people take it for what its worth, a balanced opinion to the TRADE HALAK and return discussion... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I agree with Fanpuck. Where is the option of Price becoming elite like Roy, Brodeur or Luongo? All three of those guys struggle from time to time and let in bad goals. How many times did Roy get scored on from outside the blueline? Too many to count! Price is our cornerstone, our franchise player. He is outright dominant at times. In terms of high end potential Price is miles ahead of Halak. Price plays better and better as the season progresses even in the face of seeing 40 plus pucks per night. We need to keep him and let him develop. See, the Price lovers can't even read properly or they choose to ignore certain parts of Habswest's msg. He clearly wrote: "IS PRICE another Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Hasek?" Yet some of you maintain that he doesn't even give the option of Price maybe becoming a star? Are some of you illiterate? Or is this being done on purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) See, the Price lovers can't even read properly or they choose to ignore certain parts of Habswest's msg. He clearly wrote: "IS PRICE another Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Hasek?" Yet some of you maintain that he doesn't even give the option of Price maybe becoming a star? Are some of you illiterate? Or is this being done on purpose? I even went back and clarified the analogy, wow.... This post has been edited by HabsWEST: Today, 03:45 PM Are some of you illiterate? Or is this being done on purpose? Edited December 17, 2009 by Trizzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HabsWEST Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 On my reply, I added the analogy....refer my second post, and mentioned I added.. The point of the topic is not PRICE vs HALAK but an offset discussion to trades and values, More important....I BALANCED it at end in BOLD, GAINEY's Best trade maybe not Trading PRICE.... Please read the post for its worth, and not bashing Price or Halak... But simply everyday decisions a GM has to make in improving his team while making calculated risks and forming opionions of future potentials of players and how they realize that potential.. DRAFTING, TRADING....etc.... Lets not get carried away here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 See, the Price lovers can't even read properly or they choose to ignore certain parts of Habswest's msg. He clearly wrote: "IS PRICE another Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Hasek?" Yet some of you maintain that he doesn't even give the option of Price maybe becoming a star? Are some of you illiterate? Or is this being done on purpose? Give me a break. Have you ever read anything I've ever written about Price? I've always been brutally honest about Price and while I do not dislike Price, I am far from a Price lover. As Habswest mentioned and Trizzak quoted for you, the phrase about Price becoming another Roy, Brodeur, or Hasak was NOT there when he initially posted. You are the one who is not reading this thread properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 jackp...you need to tone it down a little. sometimes it looks like your attacking people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The more I read that first post the more ridiculous it gets. The whole thing reads with such an obvious bias... it's written as if it's already preordained that Price will fall, but the other GMs don't know it yet. And Kovalchuk for Price! So Price will suck, but no other GMs know it yet, so let's get a franchise player for him before they realize it. If this were my site, I'd ban this guy. This is perhaps the worst post I have ever read on this site. jackp makes better arguments against Price than this! I surely believe that you would ban him. You Price lovers don't take criticism too well. And you propagandize oh so well. "Jackp makes better arguments against Price than this!" Of course the childishly simple insinuation here is that my arguments against Price are ridiculous. Or I suppose the same can be said for my complaints about Gainey. What was Price's save % during the playoffs? .875 or something like that. And where is the team now under Gainey's tutelage? Out of the playoffs and sinking fast. Oh, I know, it's the injuries.... but wait, haven't the other teams had lots of injuries too? "The emperor has no clothes... the emperor has no clothes." (I'm hoping that many of you are literate enough to get the allusion.) Habswest made an interesting post. This may surprise you, but even *I* don't want Price (or Halak) traded at this point. Too much of a risk to the *team.* This doesn't take away from the fact that the post itself was original and creative and, more importantly, *fair.* It did not deserve the rain of s--t that came down upon it. But Kozed in a much earlier post commented on the small-mindedness that infects some members of this forum. "Don't like someone's post? Well ban him of course." That's the mentality of some here. Sad... really sad. Give me a break. Have you ever read anything I've ever written about Price? I've always been brutally honest about Price and while I do not dislike Price, I am far from a Price lover. As Habswest mentioned and Trizzak quoted for you, the phrase about Price becoming another Roy, Brodeur, or Hasak was NOT there when he initially posted. You are the one who is not reading this thread properly. And just how am I supposed to know what part of the post was added later on in an edit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 jackp...you need to tone it down a little. sometimes it looks like your attacking people. I *am* attacking some - those who attacked HabWest for an original and creative post. Did you ask *those* to tone down their attacks? If there's anything I can't stomach, it's someone being attacked personally for having an opinion. HabWest was seriously put down, in case you missed it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 And just how am I supposed to know what part of the post was added later on in an edit? By extrapolating from the posts that followed it what needed to be edited in? Or you could just assume we are a bunch of illiterates instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HabsWEST Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) I *am* attacking some - those who attacked HabWest for an original and creative post. Did you ask *those* to tone down their attacks? If there's anything I can't stomach, it's someone being attacked personally for having an opinion. HabWest was seriously put down, in case you missed it... Thanks jackp.....I am not taking it personally, just repeating the intent of my post to look at the overall picture and another side to all this trade talk of HALAK... As mentioned on post, the loss of trading HALAK is greater than the gain we get back, MOST LIKELY. The POST itself states the value of PRICE, its implicit in my post.... AND I started the post ( by saying....." .....this will never happen....") AND ENDED IT : BUT AS THEY SAY " the HIGHER THE RISK, THE HIGHER the RETURN" you decide, THAUGHTS? ****Question is, RISK in TRADING or KEEPING PRICE? Probably the single most important factor in the success of this franchise for the NEXT DECADE, and people will look back on this....PRICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRADED while his value was HIGH, or BEST TRADE GAINEY EVER MADE was NOT TRADING PRICE....***** Interesting how people choose to pick apart what they wish.... YES , I went back and added the sentence about " PRICE being BRODEUR, ROY...etc... to make it obvious.... Lets not jump to conclusions or get defensive,.... Instead of being reactive and jumping on and off the bandwagon....lets be proactive, look at the overall good...And what makes most sense for the club.. If any asset the team has, brings back enormous amount of assets for overall good, I dont care who that is, any asset is dispensible..... Cheers all. Keep on posting....everyone has their opinion... " THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX" Edited December 17, 2009 by HabsWEST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 And just how am I supposed to know what part of the post was added later on in an edit? Perhaps by reading the thread? Trizzak spelled it out very nicely, since you didn't comprehend the first time. At the very least, you could question us about it before attacking us and calling us illiterate. If I weren't trying to be a bit more lenient lately, I would have given you a formal warning for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Please read the post for its worth, and not bashing Price or Halak... The edit saves it. Thank you for that. It changes the tone of the post from what it came off as" "Price is destined to fail, trade him while we still have Halak" Now the question is a bit more clear... Is the team better off trading Price for better assets and going with Halak as their #1? I think not, for a myriad of reasons. I think the goalie market is shit to begin with, and there isn't much demand for them - even potential franchise players. I also think a player like Price is something to build a team around rather than build from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 By extrapolating from the posts that followed it what needed to be edited in? Or you could just assume we are a bunch of illiterates instead. Good point. I apologize... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HabsWEST Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) The edit saves it. Thank you for that. It changes the tone of the post from what it came off as" "Price is destined to fail, trade him while we still have Halak" Now the question is a bit more clear... Is the team better off trading Price for better assets and going with Halak as their #1? I think not, for a myriad of reasons. I think the goalie market is shit to begin with, and there isn't much demand for them - even potential franchise players. I also think a player like Price is something to build a team around rather than build from. Thanks, and Exactly my point, of why are we trading HALAK ( other than some humanitarian favour for HALAK ), any trade we get for HALAK, will not be in the best interest of the CLUB at this point in time, unless Gainey pulls some magic.. Quite simply, HALAK is the insurance policy , atleast for 1 more year until UFA Why now, wait until after the OLYMPICS, where HALAK is the pencilled in starter for SLOVAKIA...and he brings his worth up ( or down)... We can guess the future, none of us knows in 5 years from now who will be better, HALAK or PRICE...we are talking about potential here....Halak was a low pick, and thus foreseen as less valuable, and PRICE has pedigree and top pick, thus more on the " no trade" franchise player list... But at some time one has to look at overall good, and again, as my last statement in bold says....THE TRADE of PRICE, or the NO TRADE of PRICE, may be the best one he ever makes.... This team is handcuffed in anumber of ways for the next 2 years... the right moves, right draftpicks, and right trades...will dictate the future of this club for 10 years....obviously Lets think overall picture and good of this club that we are all long time loyal fans of!! Edited December 17, 2009 by HabsWEST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Perhaps by reading the thread? Trizzak spelled it out very nicely, since you didn't comprehend the first time. At the very least, you could question us about it before attacking us and calling us illiterate. If I weren't trying to be a bit more lenient lately, I would have given you a formal warning for that. So I can be called an idiot. Or "off my meds" and that's okay? Did those posters get a formal warning? (Both of those have happened in the past year BTW). Since I'm assuming this is your forum, I'd really like to get an answer here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 So I can be called an idiot. Or "off my meds" and that's okay? Did those posters get a formal warning? (Both of those have happened in the past year BTW). Since I'm assuming this is your forum, I'd really like to get an answer here. Mods can't read every single post, stuff gets missed. I did see the "off your meds" comment, and also saw that it was a joke based on another of your comments. I do recall you calling another user's post idiotic, and gloating in the fact that you were getting away with calling him an idiot by not doing it directly. What in the world would make you think this is my forum? I am quite clearly just a moderator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Mods can't read every single post, stuff gets missed. I did see the "off your meds" comment, and also saw that it was a joke based on another of your comments. I do recall you calling another user's post idiotic, and gloating in the fact that you were getting away with calling him an idiot by not doing it directly. What in the world would make you think this is my forum? I am quite clearly just a moderator. Did you miss this one also? "Jack, with all do respect, my 4 year old debates better than you do." That one was posted today. Or was this one a joke also? Maybe I'm missing something here but equating one's debating skills to a 4 year old is the same as calling someone illiterate, wouldn't you say? And posting *publicly* that you almost gave someone a formal warning, is the same as actually giving them a formal warning, wouldn't you say that's so also? I do recall you calling another user's post idiotic, and gloating in the fact that you were getting away with calling him an idiot by not doing it directly. I don't recall this at all. Can you direct me to the post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I surely believe that you would ban him. You Price lovers don't take criticism too well. And you propagandize oh so well. "Jackp makes better arguments against Price than this!" Of course the childishly simple insinuation here is that my arguments against Price are ridiculous. Or I suppose the same can be said for my complaints about Gainey. Well let me be clear, without childish insinuation (which was meant as facetious insinuation), I find your crusade against Price to be amusing. I think you nitpick, I think you look for things to criticize, and I think you react in a kneejerk fashion to his mistakes. In much the same way that Sir Boagalott jumps at any opportunity to bring up his theory of why NCAA players shouldn't be priority draft picks, you appear to bring up a hate-on for Price at any given time, whether he deserves it or not. It weakens your overall argument when you harp on it - and you do harp on it. Numerous times this season, Price's play has not been a determinate factor in a loss, but there was a jackp post, throwing Price out the window. It's tiresome. Boring. Irritating. Annoying. Any fair points you may make about Price get lost in what basically amounts to Anti-Price spam posts More and more it seems like your sole purpose for being here is to spread an anti-Price agenda, and you criticize me for propaganda? Because I'm willing to let a 22 year old goaltender make a few mistakes during his development? I am no Price Lover. I'm certainly no Halak Hater. I just trust that greater hockey minds than my own have a better bead on the skill ceilings of these players than I and (most especially) you do. So no insinuation here: I think your arguments against Price are ridiculous. Bringing up the playoff save percentage of a 22 year old? I think I read before that you're a teacher. If that's true, I don't see how you can write off development so easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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