Goaltending style vs. goalie coach?

[REV-G]

I'm not sure if this is a legitimate question or not but I thought I'd throw it out there to chew on something other than turkey this Thanksgiving Monday. I'm wondering about Carey Price's goaltending style. I may be wrong on this but I seem to remember that when I watched Carey at the World Junior Championships win gold I seem to recollect that he was more of a stand up goalie. I've noticed now, and I heard at least one hockey analyst observe after the opening night loss to Toronto that Price was going down early. I like Carey Price and I hope he does well. He played really well against Pittsburgh in their second game and I guess if he has a great season this question is unnecessary. But I wonder if they have tried to change his style. I thought Halak stood up a little more and a little longer than Price last year, and I wondered then if going down too soon and too often was a problem, although that's just a fan's observation and I could be wrong. I think I've noticed that there are too many times when he goes down early and just tries to block most of the net and hope the puck hits him. Obviously if he's being screened he has no other choice, but I'm not talking about those times. I can't remember at exactly what point Montreal changed their goalie coach and brought in Pierre Groulx, but I wonder if this has contributed to any of Carey's struggles. So the question is, has Carey Price's style been changed and if so has this helped or hurt him?

[dlbalr]

His style was changed, Melanson is a pure butterfly coach which is who Price worked with up to the beginning of last season when Groulx was brought in (to answer that question). I think it has hurt him personally as he can use his size to his advantage as a stand-up goalie. It should be noted that Auld is also a big goalie, I wonder if Groulx may change his approach now that he has two of the taller goalies in the league now. Auld might be able to work with Price on that as well since he's apparently a good guy in the room.

[nikohab]

I'm not sure if this is a legitimate question or not but I thought I'd throw it out there to chew on something other than turkey this Thanksgiving Monday. I'm wondering about Carey Price's goaltending style. I may be wrong on this but I seem to remember that when I watched Carey at the World Junior Championships win gold I seem to recollect that he was more of a stand up goalie. I've noticed now, and I heard at least one hockey analyst observe after the opening night loss to Toronto that Price was going down early. I like Carey Price and I hope he does well. He played really well against Pittsburgh in their second game and I guess if he has a great season this question is unnecessary. But I wonder if they have tried to change his style. I thought Halak stood up a little more and a little longer than Price last year, and I wondered then if going down too soon and too often was a problem, although that's just a fan's observation and I could be wrong. I think I've noticed that there are too many times when he goes down early and just tries to block most of the net and hope the puck hits him. Obviously if he's being screened he has no other choice, but I'm not talking about those times. I can't remember at exactly what point Montreal changed their goalie coach and brought in Pierre Groulx, but I wonder if this has contributed to any of Carey's struggles. So the question is, has Carey Price's style been changed and if so has this helped or hurt him?

Randy Tieman with the Team 990 had a great interview with the legend goaltender Billy Smith. He stated that although Carey Price is a huge goalie he moves very dynamic and moves very quick but often goes down to quickly. Everyone would like to see Price stay more on his feet but that change will require more time to adjust to. Billy Smith also noted that the major obstacle with Price is his temper and it will take more time to mature. Don Cherry on 'coaches corner' said that Price won't make it in montreal. Man would I like to prove that Bully wrong again, some day soon I hope.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't pretend to be an expert on these technical aspects of the game (in fact, I found Brobin and BTH's discussion about the V-H move that led to Gomez's GWG last game fascinating because I hadn't considered it). It seems clear, though, that Price came to the NHL with a highly successful style that Melanson nevertheless decided to fiddle with. When he first came up, you *never* saw Price flail around; in fact, he hardly seemed to move at all, so sound was his positional game. But over the last two seasons he's had to make a lot more spectacular/reflex saves because he's not playing the same way. Indeed, I like the Price I've seen so far this season; he seems much calmer in the net. So maybe he's finding a nice balance.

There's a wider issue here - the massive overcoaching of both teams and individuals in pro sports. The ultimate expression of this insanity, to me, was Tiger Woods's attempt a few years back to 'reconstruct' a swing that had allowed him to absolutely dominate the golf field. The result was a year's worth of mediocre performances, as he struggled to adjust to the new swing, followed by a stabilization that did not see him noticeably more dominant than he had been before. The whole exercise was a case of theory trumping common sense. As Bob Dylan says, when you got a lot of knives and forks, ya gotta cut something; when you have a whole phalax of coaches and 'experts' hovering over atheletes, you're going to have those atheletes treated as test subjects for the coach's pet theories, regardless of whether that makes any sense.

If you read up on Habs' dynasty days, you find player after player saying that when they came up from the minors, they were told to 'play your game' and see what happens. Now all players are viewed as raw materials for coaching interventions.

Back in 01-02 Carbo had served as assistant coach in charge of the PK and the Habs had one of the best PKs in the league. Then Carbo left, so Guy Charron was hired as his replacement. The first thing Charron did was implement a brand new PK system. The result was a plummeting in effectiveness. He couldn't just leave well enough alone, right? And that exemplifies the whole problem. Coaches don't want to just oversee a successful existing arrangement. They want to create that arrangement according to their theories about what a player or team 'should' look like.

What should have happened with Price is that he should have been left alone until his existing style was proven to be a problem. I'm no insider but frankly I doubt that that is what happened. Much more likely is that Melanson assessed Price according to some Theory of Perfect Goaltending and told him, kid, you need to do this and this and this.' And who knows, if it hadn't happened, Price may have had a smoother ride.

Edited October 11, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[saskhab]

I guess it should be pointed out that goaltenders like Price are coached every summer from age 10 on, and once they hit junior, have a stable goaltending coach. Price uses Eli Wilson every summer, and his dad was a goalie, too, so he's had a ton of coaching in his life.

And to think that Price was better with his goaltending style against juniors, and should never have been tinkered with, is incredibly presumptuous. The pro game is faster, the lateral movement required needs to be sharper, the shots are coming at tougher velocity and angles. The players are just that much better... you need to adjust. You can get away with certain things at the junior level by just being that much more talented than the opponent... that luxury does not exist at the professional level.

[Wamsley01]

Price has never been a stand up goalie, he was a hybrid.

Giguere is a butterfly goaltender. He relies on positioning and the belief that if he is in the proper position

that he will block the puck in his butterfly. Miller is a hybrid in that he adjusts to the game and trusts his intellect

to choose the technique he feels is best suited to stop the puck. That means he may use two different techniques

to stop the same type of shot based on the player, not the situation.

In all reality, there isn't much difference between a hybrid goaltender and a butterfly. Hybrid's use 95% of the principles

of a butterfly goaltender. The same footwork, edgework, pushes etc.

Price's greatness has always been his ability to take a huge body and move it powerfully and maintain control. When he

is on the ice his pushes seem effortless, he can move cross crease quickly and efficiently. Terms like economy of movement

always followed him around.

Contrast his movement to that of a large man like Luongo who looks awkward and scrambly because he isn't as great a skater as Price.

Saskhab is 100% correct when he mentions the coaching Price has had through his career.

Goaltender coaches are like hitting coaches, they do not (or they shouldn't) try to remake a style, they need to pick out small technical mistakes

that are being made and try to re-adjust them in order to get the goaltender working at an optimum level.

Price mentioned that one of his issues he worked on over the summer was getting out on his toes and not putting the weight on the heel

of his skates. A small adjustment, but one that could save him a 1/4 of a second in movement.

I don't think any of his struggles are based on his coaches, just adjusting to the best professional league in the world.

[brobin]

+1

Price has never been a stand up goalie, he was a hybrid.

Giguere is a butterfly goaltender. He relies on positioning and the belief that if he is in the proper position

that he will block the puck in his butterfly. Miller is a hybrid in that he adjusts to the game and trusts his intellect

to choose the technique he feels is best suited to stop the puck. That means he may use two different techniques

to stop the same type of shot based on the player, not the situation.

In all reality, there isn't much difference between a hybrid goaltender and a butterfly. Hybrid's use 95% of the principles

of a butterfly goaltender. The same footwork, edgework, pushes etc.

Price's greatness has always been his ability to take a huge body and move it powerfully and maintain control. When he

is on the ice his pushes seem effortless, he can move cross crease quickly and efficiently. Terms like economy of movement

always followed him around.

Contrast his movement to that of a large man like Luongo who looks awkward and scrambly because he isn't as great a skater as Price.

Saskhab is 100% correct when he mentions the coaching Price has had through his career.

Goaltender coaches are like hitting coaches, they do not (or they shouldn't) try to remake a style, they need to pick out small technical mistakes

that are being made and try to re-adjust them in order to get the goaltender working at an optimum level.

Price mentioned that one of his issues he worked on over the summer was getting out on his toes and not putting the weight on the heel

of his skates. A small adjustment, but one that could save him a 1/4 of a second in movement.

I don't think any of his struggles are based on his coaches, just adjusting to the best professional league in the world.

[Seb]

Price has never been a stand up goalie, he was a hybrid.

Giguere is a butterfly goaltender. He relies on positioning and the belief that if he is in the proper position

that he will block the puck in his butterfly. Miller is a hybrid in that he adjusts to the game and trusts his intellect

to choose the technique he feels is best suited to stop the puck. That means he may use two different techniques

to stop the same type of shot based on the player, not the situation.

In all reality, there isn't much difference between a hybrid goaltender and a butterfly. Hybrid's use 95% of the principles

of a butterfly goaltender. The same footwork, edgework, pushes etc.

Price's greatness has always been his ability to take a huge body and move it powerfully and maintain control. When he

is on the ice his pushes seem effortless, he can move cross crease quickly and efficiently. Terms like economy of movement

always followed him around.

Contrast his movement to that of a large man like Luongo who looks awkward and scrambly because he isn't as great a skater as Price.

Saskhab is 100% correct when he mentions the coaching Price has had through his career.

Goaltender coaches are like hitting coaches, they do not (or they shouldn't) try to remake a style, they need to pick out small technical mistakes

that are being made and try to re-adjust them in order to get the goaltender working at an optimum level.

Price mentioned that one of his issues he worked on over the summer was getting out on his toes and not putting the weight on the heel

of his skates. A small adjustment, but one that could save him a 1/4 of a second in movement.

I don't think any of his struggles are based on his coaches, just adjusting to the best professional league in the world.

+1

Just to add to that, going down early is usually considered a sign that a goalie is in fact leaning back on his heels.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Not my most popular post! Just to clarify, I'm arguing neither that Price should not be coached nor that he has not been attentively coached since he was a kid. All I'm saying is, given the pervasive culture of over-coaching in pro sports today, I would not be a bit surprised if he got a little 'too much' technical help upon his arrival and that this might be one factor in his apparent shift from a super-composed style to a more erratic one. Anyway, enough out of me. Carry on!

[brobin]

I do think you have a point. I am not sure it is over coaching, so much as ignoring the time it takes for a young goalie to incorporate the large number of small changes needed to adjust to the big leagues. It definitely hurts their confidence and probably has them thinking too much for a while.

The problem for Price was the expectation that he could just jump in as a number one while learning all this stuff. Its a process and most young goalies spend a few years as a backup learning, adjusting, and rebuilding. Much like the goal swing you talked about. (for the record, the reason he changed his swing was because his body couldn't take the abuse his old swing demanded as he aged).

I am hoping that this is the year where Price can incorporate these tweaks without over thinking and just play. I don't want to get ahead our ourselves, but some of those reaction saves Price made against Pitts were the type of thing a goalie who is "playing" pulls off. Good sign!

Not my most popular post! Just to clarify, I'm arguing neither that Price should not be coached nor that he has not been attentively coached since he was a kid. All I'm saying is, given the pervasive culture of over-coaching in pro sports today, I would not be a bit surprised if he got a little 'too much' technical help upon his arrival and that this might be one factor in his apparent shift from a super-composed style to a more erratic one. Anyway, enough out of me. Carry on!

[Wamsley01]

Not my most popular post! Just to clarify, I'm arguing neither that Price should not be coached nor that he has not been attentively coached since he was a kid. All I'm saying is, given the pervasive culture of over-coaching in pro sports today, I would not be a bit surprised if he got a little 'too much' technical help upon his arrival and that this might be one factor in his apparent shift from a super-composed style to a more erratic one. Anyway, enough out of me. Carry on!

The thing about any adjustment is that until you replicate the movement a thousand times in practice it can become distracting when you are thinking about it during a game. If overcoached you will think too much and that hesitation could be the difference between a goal and a save.

So making too many adjustments can definitely a problem, especially if they are the wrong adjustment. I still think the biggest flaw in Price's game over the last 20 months as been work ethic (Self admitted) and anticipation. As his reads improve he seemingly becomes quicker, but it is him anticipating the play and not guessing that is the marked improvement. His anticipation was outstanding against the Pens on Saturday, when coupled with his physical gifts it amounted to a dominant performance.