Trizzak Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Wasn't Drury injured for a big chunk of the year? I don't think drury is worse value then gomez and I can't think of any contact that will be worse then Gomez next year. Drury was paid $7 050 000 for 5 points in 24 games. 1.4 mill per point. It was the worst contract last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Seriously? More crap about Gomez in the Yemelin thread? Every off season thread should just be retitled or merged into a "I hate Gomez" thread. I guess when there's no Price/Halak, this is what we get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 A lot of this particular round of Gomez talk stems from analysis of the cap crunch we are likely to face in 2012 when Price et al. are up for new contracts. I expect that people will flip out when I say this, but for my money this is an abstract future problem and should not really inform decision-making today, nor should fans get worked up into knots about it. I say this because of my wider philosophy of cap management, which, as may be familiar by now, is to sign who you want NOW and ruthlessly purge as necessary later (C.f. Chicago, Philly, even Vancouver). Habs29 is absolutely correct that Gomez's production would be easy to replace, so in a way we will be in a good position by next season - able to move heaven and earth to ship him out and toss Eller or Desharnais or some mediocre/cheaper UFA into the vacuum. Meanwhile, keep him around for next season; if he recovers his game, so much the better, because when he is playing well he is a very useful player. In short, his contract is crippling longer-term but not apt to be a franchise-crushing millstone THIS season. I was encouraged to read that Gauthier has been negotiating with Wisniewski. Although the likelihood is that it's just exploratory, this shows that management has its head on straight - not just dismissing options out of hand because of the cap, as some fans tend to do, but willing to diligently explore every avenue to sign and keep the players we need. Conceivably this is even a signal that Gauthier is willing to exceed the cap in the summer and make the murderous choices to get back under it by fall, which is exactly the attitude I support. It's a long shot...but imagine if we had Wiz, Markov, Gorges, PK, AND Emelin, along with Weber and whomever? Holy crow. If Emelin pans out that's a Cup-worthy D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Drury was paid $7 050 000 for 5 points in 24 games. 1.4 mill per point. It was the worst contract last season. You can't cmpare a guy that was injured for the bulk of the season to someone who played for most of the season. A guy with a long term major injury is not going to come back and start putting up points right away. I'm not saying Drury is a good contract, because the GOmez and Drury deals were the start of Sather's insanity in throwing stupid money (REdden, Rosizaal, or whatever his name was), but Drury was at least a leader and isn't the perimeter player that GOmez is and is/was their captain. The only saving grace for Drury is that at least his term is around 2 years less then gomez. Having said that, I think the rangers will probably eat his contract next year as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 A lot of this particular round of Gomez talk stems from analysis of the cap crunch we are likely to face in 2012 when Price et al. are up for new contracts. I expect that people will flip out when I say this, but for my money this is an abstract future problem and should not really inform decision-making today, nor should fans get worked up into knots about it. I say this because of my wider philosophy of cap management, which, as may be familiar by now, is to sign who you want NOW and ruthlessly purge as necessary later (C.f. Chicago, Philly, even Vancouver). Habs29 is absolutely correct that Gomez's production would be easy to replace, so in a way we will be in a good position by next season - able to move heaven and earth to ship him out and toss Eller or Desharnais or some mediocre/cheaper UFA into the vacuum. Meanwhile, keep him around for next season; if he recovers his game, so much the better, because when he is playing well he is a very useful player. In short, his contract is crippling longer-term but not apt to be a franchise-crushing millstone THIS season. I was encouraged to read that Gauthier has been negotiating with Wisniewski. Although the likelihood is that it's just exploratory, this shows that management has its head on straight - not just dismissing options out of hand because of the cap, as some fans tend to do, but willing to diligently explore every avenue to sign and keep the players we need. Conceivably this is even a signal that Gauthier is willing to exceed the cap in the summer and make the murderous choices to get back under it by fall, which is exactly the attitude I support. It's a long shot...but imagine if we had Wiz, Markov, Gorges, PK, AND Emelin, along with Weber and whomever? Holy crow. If Emelin pans out that's a Cup-worthy D. Which is why I want Gomez gone next year!! Look at the canucks D, they have every pairing with a strong puck moving D man, great balance of physicality and offensive ability on their blue-line. If we could have the following pairings: Markov-Emelin Subban-Gorges Wiz-Weber We could have Gill as the 7th D and if Diaz shows he can make the jump from Hamilton to the NHL, we have someone else to challenge Weber. In a couple of years, if Weber/Diaz show that they can supplement Wiz, we have a tradeable asset that bring back a return in Wiz. We could potentially have the best D in the league. If we eat Gomez's contract THIS YEAR and find a taker for Spacek and Moen, we would have enough money to resign Wiz, Markov and Gill AND get another BIG centre that could fill the Gomez role or be a 3rd line guy if Eller shows is ready to step up to be a #2 centre. This would ALSO leave enough money to sign a guy like Jagr to a one year deal. This flexibility is NOT going to be there next year when Subban, Price and potentially Eller are due raises. Forwards could potentially be: Cammy-Pleks-Jagr Gionta-Eller-MaxPac AK46-Laich-Desharnais White-UFA/Hamilton player - Cheap UFA/Hamilton player At this point i really don't care if Gomez does "Break out" to have a 65 point season as has been suggested (if he gets 50 assists and 15 goals playing with MaxPac and Gionta). I'd rather get someone else who is cheaper can give us a reliable 50-55 points AND allow us to address our other holes. We have a window next year to really re-shape our defense AND bring in a one year rental like Jagr while Price and Subban are still cheap. Why not use that window in the upcoming year by getting rid of Gomez now, rather then the following year then when Price and Subban are due raises and we can't bring in the additional rentals like a Jagr I realize Jagr is not the 50 goal, 100 point Jagr of days past, but if he can provide a physical presence like he did during this past WC, score 25-30 goals and 60 points for $4M, I'll take that over Gomez's 65 points playing with Gionta and MaxPac for a $7.2M cap hit any day of the week. Seriously? More crap about Gomez in the Yemelin thread? Every off season thread should just be retitled or merged into a "I hate Gomez" thread. I guess when there's no Price/Halak, this is what we get... Everything we want to do going forward is limited by the anchor that is the useless Scott Gomez and the slow and old Spacek eating away $10.7M from our cap. So whether we are talking about adding a backup goalie, another Defensemen, more forwards, these two HAVE to be part of the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 You can't cmpare a guy that was injured for the bulk of the season to someone who played for most of the season. A guy with a long term major injury is not going to come back and start putting up points right away. I'm not saying Drury is a good contract, because the GOmez and Drury deals were the start of Sather's insanity in throwing stupid money (REdden, Rosizaal, or whatever his name was), but Drury was at least a leader and isn't the perimeter player that GOmez is and is/was their captain. The only saving grace for Drury is that at least his term is around 2 years less then gomez. Having said that, I think the rangers will probably eat his contract next year as well. Well how about a long term comparison then? Since those contracts were signed, Drury has put up 151 points in 264 games - 0.57 points per game. Gomez has put up 225 points in 316 games - 0.71 points per game so... Drury was also a healthy scratch for quite a few games. So really, from a production vs cap hit standpoint, Drury has been more of an anchor than Gomez. The only way Drury's contract is better than Gomez's is, like you said, that it costs less to buy him out on June 15th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Well how about a long term comparison then? Since those contracts were signed, Drury has put up 151 points in 264 games - 0.57 points per game. Gomez has put up 225 points in 316 games - 0.71 points per game so... Drury was also a healthy scratch for quite a few games. So really, from a production vs cap hit standpoint, Drury has been more of an anchor than Gomez. The only way Drury's contract is better than Gomez's is, like you said, that it costs less to buy him out on June 15th. LIke I said both are lousy deals. They are both deals that Sather should have been fired for, instead he also got a chance to sign Redden to another stupid contract. I wouldn't want either on my team, but if i had a gun to my head I would still take Drury over Gomez - only because of the intangibles - Drury plays harder and isn't afraid to go to the net. Having said that I If I'm their GM, both would be sent to the minors next year. I think Drury is washed up and is what TB will face with Lecavalier in the last 3-5 years of his deal. I don't see Drury being bought out, he'll probably also be buried in the minors. This whole ability to bury guys in the minors by the chicago's and NY's of the league kind of defeats the intent on the whole point of the cap doesn't it? Its a loop hole other teams are using, with the money the habs make, they should also take advantage of it while it still exists. Who knows, with the new CBA that will be negotiated at the end of 2012, we may only have to eat Gomez's contract for one year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 This season? Chris Drury. Next season however... Shawn Horcoff. 6 million per. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Wasn't Drury injured for a big chunk of the year? I don't think drury is worse value then gomez and I can't think of any contact that will be worse then Gomez next year. From a term perspective the only worst contracts are Lecavalier, but for the next 4-5 years at least he is a better cap hit than Gomez. The other one from a term perspective is Pronger and that's because he was over 35 when he signed, so hopefully he'll have to retire before the end of his term and the flyers will be stuck with his cap hit. Actually, Lecavalier's cap hit is worse than Gomez, at just over 7.7 million. That doesn't change between now and the end of his deal in 2019-20. And honestly, we all know you want Gomez gone next year. It's now the underlying (if not the) message in upwards of 80% of your posts now. I think the message has gotten across. Not every thread needs to turn into "management has to dump Gomez before next season," even if there isn't a whole lot else to talk about (though so far, there have been a few good topics to discuss what with signings and rumours, plus free agency and the draft coming). It just gets a little tiresome seeing you write the same thing over and over for the most part as when you do mention other stuff, it makes for good discussion generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Which is why I want Gomez gone next year!! Look at the canucks D, they have every pairing with a strong puck moving D man, great balance of physicality and offensive ability on their blue-line. If we could have the following pairings: Markov-Emelin Subban-Gorges Wiz-Weber We could have Gill as the 7th D and if Diaz shows he can make the jump from Hamilton to the NHL, we have someone else to challenge Weber. In a couple of years, if Weber/Diaz show that they can supplement Wiz, we have a tradeable asset that bring back a return in Wiz. We could potentially have the best D in the league. If we eat Gomez's contract THIS YEAR and find a taker for Spacek and Moen, we would have enough money to resign Wiz, Markov and Gill AND get another BIG centre that could fill the Gomez role or be a 3rd line guy if Eller shows is ready to step up to be a #2 centre. This would ALSO leave enough money to sign a guy like Jagr to a one year deal. This flexibility is NOT going to be there next year when Subban, Price and potentially Eller are due raises. Forwards could potentially be: Cammy-Pleks-Jagr Gionta-Eller-MaxPac AK46-Laich-Desharnais White-UFA/Hamilton player - Cheap UFA/Hamilton player At this point i really don't care if Gomez does "Break out" to have a 65 point season as has been suggested (if he gets 50 assists and 15 goals playing with MaxPac and Gionta). I'd rather get someone else who is cheaper can give us a reliable 50-55 points AND allow us to address our other holes. We have a window next year to really re-shape our defense AND bring in a one year rental like Jagr while Price and Subban are still cheap. Why not use that window in the upcoming year by getting rid of Gomez now, rather then the following year then when Price and Subban are due raises and we can't bring in the additional rentals like a Jagr I realize Jagr is not the 50 goal, 100 point Jagr of days past, but if he can provide a physical presence like he did during this past WC, score 25-30 goals and 60 points for $4M, I'll take that over Gomez's 65 points playing with Gionta and MaxPac for a $7.2M cap hit any day of the week. Everything we want to do going forward is limited by the anchor that is the useless Scott Gomez and the slow and old Spacek eating away $10.7M from our cap. So whether we are talking about adding a backup goalie, another Defensemen, more forwards, these two HAVE to be part of the discussion. Ya know what? You make a good case. And if they move Gomez this season, I won't cry about it, that's for sure. However, the lack of any good internal replacement (there might be no surer way of ruining Eller in particular than asking this of him at this stage)along with (perhaps) a desire to be perceived by the room as having been fair to Gomez, as well as his actual take-home salary this season as opposed to next summer when it drops, all lead to a move next summer as being more realistic. This doesn't mean that dumping him know wouldn't be better, though. As for Spacek - his salary is conceivably more digestable for Molson; why has sending him to the minors not been more discussed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 As for Spacek - his salary is conceivably more digestable for Molson; why has sending him to the minors not been more discussed? 35+ contract. He counts against the cap whether he's in Montreal, Hamilton, or retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 35+ contract. He counts against the cap whether he's in Montreal, Hamilton, or retired. Doh, I knew that Clearly my brain has gone into 'Summer Cucumber' mode. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 So is it Alexei Yemelin or Alexei Emelin? Evidently neither, based on the Habs' press release. Now, it's Alexsey Emelin. Perhaps now the mystery has been solved. The Habs have amended their spelling in the press release to Alexei Yemelin, which is what his agent said he preferred. I think finally now we have our answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 As for Spacek - his salary is conceivably more digestable for Molson; why has sending him to the minors not been more discussed? Re-entry waivers could happen. Spacek at a $1.916.667 cap hit is quite attractive to other teams actually. He'd even be a trade asset at the deadline for that kind of cash. Is it smarter for Montreal to pay $2.416.667 against the cap for no one to play (Spacek + Laraque buyout) and still need to sign another player? Or keep Spacek at $3.833.333? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Re-entry waivers could happen. Spacek at a $1.916.667 cap hit is quite attractive to other teams actually. He'd even be a trade asset at the deadline for that kind of cash. Is it smarter for Montreal to pay $2.416.667 against the cap for no one to play (Spacek + Laraque buyout) and still need to sign another player? Or keep Spacek at $3.833.333? A lot depends on how they view Spacek. If they're thinking he's a #6 guy at this point, then it may be smarter to go the re-entry route as they could get a #6 (it'd probably be a young guy like Weber getting more time) cheaper than the ~$1.4 million difference you have listed. If they think he's worth more than that, it probably isn't worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 A lot depends on how they view Spacek. If they're thinking he's a #6 guy at this point, then it may be smarter to go the re-entry route as they could get a #6 (it'd probably be a young guy like Weber getting more time) cheaper than the ~$1.4 million difference you have listed. If they think he's worth more than that, it probably isn't worth it. To me, it's Spacek gone on re-entry to bring back Gill. Gill makes up the difference, but that still leaves a roster spot open for another defenseman, which I consider rather necessary... Markov - Subban Gorges - Emelin Spacek - Weber Diaz ... now Markov gets injured. Who steps up? Hamrlik used to eat those minutes and still produce some offense. I'd rather not have to lean on a sophomore Subban. I think another top 4 defenseman is needed to push Weber to the 7th spot and Diaz to Hamilton. I'm just not comfortable with any long term injury happening to the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 To me, it's Spacek gone on re-entry to bring back Gill. Gill makes up the difference, but that still leaves a roster spot open for another defenseman, which I consider rather necessary... Markov - Subban Gorges - Emelin Spacek - Weber Diaz ... now Markov gets injured. Who steps up? Hamrlik used to eat those minutes and still produce some offense. I'd rather not have to lean on a sophomore Subban. I think another top 4 defenseman is needed to push Weber to the 7th spot and Diaz to Hamilton. I'm just not comfortable with any long term injury happening to the defense. We are stuck with Spacek - he was an over 35 when he signed - there is no getting rid of his cap hit unless we can finding a trading partner that needs to get to the floor that we can induce to take Spacek (i.e. trade our 3rd and Spacek, for somebody's 4th, or our our 4th for somebody's 5th). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 We are stuck with Spacek - he was an over 35 when he signed - there is no getting rid of his cap hit unless we can finding a trading partner that needs to get to the floor that we can induce to take Spacek (i.e. trade our 3rd and Spacek, for somebody's 4th, or our our 4th for somebody's 5th). So re-entry waivers isn't even an option to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 So re-entry waivers isn't even an option to you? Not sure what the rules are with respect to re-enry waivers for over 35, but what would be the point - we would have to pick up half of his salary anyways. I'd rather try and package a draft 4th round pick and get rid of his entire cap hit. We are already still paying out that uselesss piece of crap and bum, Laraque for not playing. Last thing I'd want to do is pay Spacek $1.75M to play for another team. Given that we need to replace him with another Dman anyways. I don't want him back, but I sure the hell don't want to pay close to $2M for him to play for someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Not sure what the rules are with respect to re-enry waivers for over 35, but what would be the point - we would have to pick up half of his salary anyways. I'd rather try and package a draft 4th round pick and get rid of his entire cap hit. We are already still paying out that uselesss piece of crap and bum, Laraque for not playing. Last thing I'd want to do is pay Spacek $1.75M to play for another team. Given that we need to replace him with another Dman anyways. I don't want him back, but I sure the hell don't want to pay close to $2M for him to play for someone else. well not too worry I am pretty sure he will be back, mostly cause we can't get rid of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Not sure what the rules are with respect to re-enry waivers for over 35, but what would be the point - we would have to pick up half of his salary anyways. I'd rather try and package a draft 4th round pick and get rid of his entire cap hit. We are already still paying out that uselesss piece of crap and bum, Laraque for not playing. Last thing I'd want to do is pay Spacek $1.75M to play for another team. Given that we need to replace him with another Dman anyways. I don't want him back, but I sure the hell don't want to pay close to $2M for him to play for someone else. It's not often that it happens (Rolston this year is the one that comes to mind) but the same re-entry rules apply for 35+ guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I know he is a lefty, but does Yemelin play the left side or right side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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