Montreal vs. Nashville | December 21th, 2013 | 1900 EST

[nihilz]

For the record, I said "think about trading him or not re-signing him."

I also think he could well interest a contender at the deadline, and could well waive his NTC in order to have another shot at a Cup; but I understand the counter-arguments that, first, we ourselves don't want to sell at the deadline, and second, that he's the captain and this (supposedly) gives him untouchable status.

My point was just that we should be looking to start next season without Gio and, hopefully, with a top-9 FW with size to replace him. Call me crazy, but that hardly seems like an insanely ambitious general managing agenda.

I couldn't agree more. I was thinking this going into this season. I think I brought it up a few times as I felt it a serious issue. The emergence of Gallagher last season had to come at the expense of either DD or Gionta entering this season. Like you said, not out of dislike but for the balance of the roster. Especially in dealing with the top 6.

Funny, I brought up AK46 yesterday on a separate thread. Funny thing about the situation is that teams probably know he's only coming back to play with the Habs. If he gets claimed what would they expect to show up into their locker room.. lmao.. Imagine AK mid flight gets a call from his agent whom tells him to redirect to Phoenix or Calgary. He'll just go home. lol

I see the AK thing like this. Fresh start. No AK27 or SK74. New youthful roster. Team core and leadership intact. Less expectation. Andrei at 28 a lil wiser and mature? Might be the perfect storm.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Presuming the Habs could get Kostitsyn out of his contract, he'd have to pass through waivers before he could join the team since he isn't on Montreal's reserve list. If he's signing a reasonable contract, there's a good chance someone claims him.

Something i'd like to add is that Kostitsyn only has 8 goals in 36 games in the KHL this year and he's in the prime of his career. I would rather keep him over Bourque, if there was an either/or, but he's all done in the NHL. I don't know if anyone reads DGB on Grantland, but this year's free agency market is the worst it's been in a long time (like the last few years) and without many trade avenues available, this team is most likely going to stay the same.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Might as well convince Ryan O'Byrne to come back to Montreal while we're at it. All that untapped potential. We'll have a big untapped potential party!

[Lovett's Magnatones]

To expound on the UFA statement, the following (minus Callahan, who will be resigned) is what we're looking at as an upgrade at RW for Gionta next season.

Gaborik
Jagr
Bertuzzi
Boyes
Hemsky
Vrbata
Downie
Setoguchi
Stempniak

Not the most promising bunch. None of these guys, unless we take a flyer on Gaborik, are first line RWs, and none add the mix of skill and grit we need.

For me, Vrbata makes the most sense out of that bunch. He only makes 3 million now, so he might be looking to cash in on the last big contract of his career.

[nihilz]

Might as well convince Ryan O'Byrne to come back to Montreal while we're at it. All that untapped potential. We'll have a big untapped potential party!

literally made me laugh

[Machine of Loving Grace]

literally made me laugh

Maybe, if we bring back all of our untapped potential players now, maybe they'll become the superstars we thought they'd become?

I don't know how anyone could watch Rene Bourque doing an Andrei Kostitsyn impression at the same price and would say, "Oh yeah, we need another one of those."

[nihilz]

Maybe, if we bring back all of our untapped potential players now, maybe they'll become the superstars we thought they'd become?

I don't know how anyone could watch Rene Bourque doing an Andrei Kostitsyn impression at the same price and would say, "Oh yeah, we need another one of those."

Interesting comparison. Although I think AK is way more potent offensively. Bourque really only excelled playing along side Iginla. Like Cheechoo and Joe. Imo, AK got shipped off before this roster was legitimate, or approaching so. Better risk reward than Briere at 38, imo and a bigger individual threat than Bourque has ever been. Bourque=Kostitsyn in consistency, though, I feel ya. That's apparently what happens when Kovalev mentors.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Interesting comparison. Although I think AK is way more potent offensively. Bourque really only excelled playing along side Iginla. Like Cheechoo and Joe. Imo, AK got shipped off before this roster was legitimate, or approaching so. Better risk reward than Briere at 38, imo and a bigger individual threat than Bourque has ever been. Bourque=Kostitsyn in consistency, though, I feel ya. That's apparently what happens when Kovalev mentors.

Why is it that Kostitsyn is this terrible victim of Alex Kovalev while Tomas Plekanec was latched onto Kovalev for the same amount of time and developed into a completely responsible player?

Bourque only excelled playing alongside Iginla? He was able to score 27 goals due to that. Kostitsyn, with Kovalev, scored 26. Afterwards he was a 15-20 goal scorer and that's it. Bourque can at least use an injury excuse for some of his lackluster years.

Nobody seems to remember Kostitsyn throwing checks then slowing completely down afterwards, or giving up on plays when he couldn't skate through three players like Kovalev, or thinking being defensive was reaching your stick out at a player you're supposed to be covering like that's gonna stop positioning. They only remember the hand full of big hits, the pretty wristers and his occasionally strong board work.

Plekanec played 30 games more than Andrei Kostitsyn between 09-10 and 11-12 and scored 13 more goals but for some reason, Plek is never treated like a goal scorer and Kostistyn is this unfortunate victim of Alex Kovalev. Andrei will get a million excuses from Habs fans when the fact was, he was a player with high potential that never met it because he didn't have the brain for it. Simply put.

[nihilz]

Interesting comparisson. Kovy to Iggy. So its safe to assume that AK would have scored 32-34 goals along side Iggy?

Lets not forget the team was a $h!t show with cliques. Leadership was torn. He'd be coming back an addition to a new core with youth and vigor. New management, new coaching staff. Kostitsyn-Galchenyuk-Gallagher makes me giddy. If it doesn't, you have a short memory. Alas, like I said before, it'll never happen. Vrbata would definitely be first on my list.

And, Plek. Is a stud. As underrated as Vrbata and frankly should be the next captain. Plek is a solid #2 center and the ultimate #3. I'd love to see the list of wingers he's played with over the years while still being consistent to or exceeding expectations offensively. He definitely took more from Koivu's presence and probably a lil' vice-versa as well.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Interesting comparisson. Kovy to Iggy. So its safe to assume that AK would have scored 32-34 goals along side Iggy?

Lets not forget the team was a $h!t show with cliques. Leadership was torn. He'd be coming back an addition to a new core with youth and vigor. New management, new coaching staff. Kostitsyn-Galchenyuk-Gallagher makes me giddy. If it doesn't, you have a short memory. Alas, like I said before, it'll never happen. Vrbata would definitely be first on my list.

And, Plek. Is a stud. As underrated as Vrbata and frankly should be the next captain. Plek is a solid #2 center and the ultimate #3. I'd love to see the list of wingers he's played with over the years while still being consistent to or exceeding expectations offensively.

I agree about Kostitsyn getting the short end of the stick , he should be in the NHL and is the victim of xenophobia. But as far as reacquiring him, we need another Pacioretty not another Bourque. If there's one thing we don't need ,it's another middling 2nd/3rd liner to join the circus of mediocrity, benchings and line juggling. It would be nice to get Vrbata, but with the UFA crop coming up I expect Gionta to be resigned, or the position to be filled by Bournival, and the lines to be reorganized.

[hab29RETIRED]

I'd move Pleks, but not Markov. Markov is going to be the veteran presence on the D we need with the number of young D-man we have in the pipeline. If we can sign him for 3 years at under $6M, i'd do that wouldn't hesitation ($5.5M would be ideal), but i think people are forgetting that Chelios played until he was around 47 years old - despite Savard being concerned about his knee almost 20 years before that!

I don't think we are in a position to be shooting for the stars Cucumber, that's just it. If treading water is what we are doing, and it looks like that is what Bergevin is doing, to determine our course of action sooner to the deadline. If the plan is to continue a rebuild with contending a couple years away, and for future years being the goal, then maybe it is time to trade Plekanec, and Markov too, to get a young player/package to maybe change the character, and size for the top 6, and the team in general for that matter. Maybe put his stamp on the team, by trading veterans for the future team built to a purpose, that Bergevin chooses.

Just saying it might be the plan, not endorsing a belief we should trade Thomas Plekanec....or Markov, I like them both and they are great players, but I do think Eller will be a great player inside of two years, and will be able to fill that role, and we have PK as our new #1 D-man, there is no doubt in my mind that he will win more Norris trophies.

I would not trade Eller, Patcioretty, or Subban, Gallagher, Galchenyuk or Price, the true young core of this team for anyone but all veterans are fair game if the return is high.... and since it is a rebuild, we already have a great young core.

It's all about the timing, it was "all about the future and contending every year" when Bergevin took over, and Plek's value will never be higher, nor will Markov's, for a "rebuilding Habs team".....

Are we a rebuilding team, or are we not?

On the Kosty thing, yeah, I digress....there is nothing to gain there.....

[hab29RETIRED]

I'd move Pleks, because, Eller looks like if he is leaned on, by next year he can be a more physical version of Pleks. From our 6 core veterans (Markov, Pleks, Gorges, Moen, Briere, Gionta). the only one I want back next year is Markov. I think pleks is the only guy who in the right package can land us a top 6 power forward like Kane, without giving up a stud prospects (Beealeau/Tinordi) or key young gun (MaxPac, Galleghar).

I'm a huge Pleks fan. Back when most on this site wanted Pleks run out of town for being a little girl, I was saying we should sign him long term when his value was at the lowest point. He is a hard worker, smart player, but we are deep up the middle right now and too small and lack enough finishers. Unless we make a dumb move like trading MaxPac, we are not going to get another finisher. However, moving maxpac will leave us in the same hole as we are in now. Eller can fill Pleks role. I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to do it tho year.

On the other hand, we need Markov to mentor the long pipeline of young dman we have coming up. Serge Savard made the mistake in the early 90's of not understanding the importance of retaining Robinson, Ludwig, Green, since we had Chelios, Kurvers, Schneider, Desjardins, Svoboda. He than dumped Chelios as well and we went from having one of the best D in the league to going through a revolving door for 20+ years.

Trading Markov could be an option if you are talking rebuild, with Subban on the team, but trading Plek would be a huge mistake. I think he should be the next captain. He is the best skater on the team for the last five years. I stand by that statement until PK is consistent and dominant every game. That's what Plek is. Consistent every game. As I said before, his name should be mentioned with Bergeron, Towes, and Datsyuk. His FO is a bit inconsistent, but that is his only weakness. Our best two way guy since carbo and gainey, but he gets on the scoreboard consistently. Of course I would trade him for the right guy, but he would have to be a huge asset.

[hab29RETIRED]

Something i'd like to add is that Kostitsyn only has 8 goals in 36 games in the KHL this year and he's in the prime of his career. I would rather keep him over Bourque, if there was an either/or, but he's all done in the NHL. I don't know if anyone reads DGB on Grantland, but this year's free agency market is the worst it's been in a long time (like the last few years) and without many trade avenues available, this team is most likely going to stay the same.

If we could bring back AK46 next year for 1 year, $3M, I wouldn't even blink in agreeing to that deal, over having Bourque. At least Ak46 will be physical when he isn't scoring. All Bourque's got going for him when he isn't scoring is a French name, despite not being francophone.

[hab29RETIRED]

To expound on the UFA statement, the following (minus Callahan, who will be resigned) is what we're looking at as an upgrade at RW for Gionta next season.

Gaborik

Jagr

Bertuzzi

Boyes

Hemsky

Vrbata

Downie

Setoguchi

Stempniak

Not the most promising bunch. None of these guys, unless we take a flyer on Gaborik, are first line RWs, and none add the mix of skill and grit we need.

For me, Vrbata makes the most sense out of that bunch. He only makes 3 million now, so he might be looking to cash in on the last big contract of his career.

the only guys i like are Jagr and Gaborik. Jagr is going to get a huge one year deal next year and unless Gaborik was going to take a HUGE pay CUT on a one years deal, i'm not interested.

[hab29RETIRED]

Why is it that Kostitsyn is this terrible victim of Alex Kovalev while Tomas Plekanec was latched onto Kovalev for the same amount of time and developed into a completely responsible player?

Bourque only excelled playing alongside Iginla? He was able to score 27 goals due to that. Kostitsyn, with Kovalev, scored 26. Afterwards he was a 15-20 goal scorer and that's it. Bourque can at least use an injury excuse for some of his lackluster years.

Nobody seems to remember Kostitsyn throwing checks then slowing completely down afterwards, or giving up on plays when he couldn't skate through three players like Kovalev, or thinking being defensive was reaching your stick out at a player you're supposed to be covering like that's gonna stop positioning. They only remember the hand full of big hits, the pretty wristers and his occasionally strong board work.

Plekanec played 30 games more than Andrei Kostitsyn between 09-10 and 11-12 and scored 13 more goals but for some reason, Plek is never treated like a goal scorer and Kostistyn is this unfortunate victim of Alex Kovalev. Andrei will get a million excuses from Habs fans when the fact was, he was a player with high potential that never met it because he didn't have the brain for it. Simply put.

No one is arguing Pleks had a much better hockey sense, work ethic and character then AK46. AK46 has much more skill. He was also a russian who was under the wing of Hamrlik and Kovolev. Neither were very good veteran role models. We wasted away Ak46 and Higgins and Pleks is the only guy from that era that reached his potential.

[hab29RETIRED]

I agree about Kostitsyn getting the short end of the stick , he should be in the NHL and is the victim of xenophobia. But as far as reacquiring him, we need another Pacioretty not another Bourque. If there's one thing we don't need ,it's another middling 2nd/3rd liner to join the circus of mediocrity, benchings and line juggling. It would be nice to get Vrbata, but with the UFA crop coming up I expect Gionta to be resigned, or the position to be filled by Bournival, and the lines to be reorganized.

I wouldn't want AK46 in the top 6. Next year a forward lineup of the following would be enticing:

Kane-Galchenyuk-MaxPac

Galleghar-Eller-Jagr

AK46-Bournavil-DD

Prust-White-Moen

Although, I'd ideally want to upgrade on DD and Moen.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

I wouldn't want AK46 in the top 6. Next year a forward lineup of the following would be enticing:

Kane-Galchenyuk-MaxPac

Galleghar-Eller-Jagr

AK46-Bournavil-DD

Prust-White-Moen

Although, I'd ideally want to upgrade on DD and Moen.

That's asking a lot from MB, a GM who can barely make a deadline deal. Unless it's a minor deal or a fleecing, he won't make any big trades. He's completely risk aversive, and solely dedicated to letting Timmons draft, and getting his players under the cap.

Which I don't think is a bad thing, but one or two years down the road, I'd worry about players and coaches getting too comfortable.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I think it's too soon to declare Bergevin "risk averse." He's had about a season's worth of games at the helm, total.

As for trading Pleks, Habs29 is right that he seems to be the only asset we can move in exchange for an "impact" return, without plundering our store of young players and prospects, and which can conceivably be replaced from within (via Eller). The latter is a key point. That's why you bring youth along, so that they can supplant your veterans at some point.

Some express horror at the very thought of trading Pleks. Given the cruddy UFA options, such people must be assuming that we already have enough talent in the system to allow us to become contenders. Now I agree that Pleks is a fantastic player, but if we aren't actually positioned to truly contend going forward, then we have to think about a move like this - a bold move that alters the core and ships out an aging yet still prime asset for a young, impact forward (e.g., Kane) who could then help to power us to contention in a year or two. Sometimes a heart-stopping move like that is what it takes to elevate an organization from "pretty good" to "elite."

That said, I part ways with Habs29 on re-signing Kostitsyn. Let's stop flogging that drunk horse.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Again, similar was said about Sharp in Chicago. The idea we're going to get a better, younger player on return is silly. We'd be trading him for picks in hope those picks grow into a younger better player while sacrificing the present. LA didn't trade away a Plekanec to get elite. They traded for one in Mike Richards.

[nihilz]

I wouldn't want AK46 in the top 6. Next year a forward lineup of the following would be enticing:

Kane-Galchenyuk-MaxPac

Galleghar-Eller-Jagr

AK46-Bournavil-DD

Prust-White-Moen

Although, I'd ideally want to upgrade on DD and Moen.

Vanek Galchenyuk Gallagher

Pacioretty Plekanec Kostitsyn

Bournival Eller Leblanc

Moen Prust Boyle White

[Guest Stogey24]

Why is everyone wanting kostitsyn back? He was another half hearted player who only showed up on nights he wasn't coming down off the cocaine he did the night before. There is a reason the kostitsyn brothers are both in the KHL. If there was a Russian to bring back to the NHL it should be Radulov. He tore up the K last year and is playing solid again this year. At least Radulov puts up numbers.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Why is everyone wanting kostitsyn back? He was another half hearted player who only showed up on nights he wasn't coming down off the cocaine he did the night before. There is a reason the kostitsyn brothers are both in the KHL. If there was a Russian to bring back to the NHL it should be Radulov. He tore up the K last year and is playing solid again this year. At least Radulov puts up numbers.

Fans of the Canadiens and especially their management love soft players, and if they're Europeans below 5'10, that only sweetens the deal. We're going with the shrimps. If we win the Cup, it has to be done in the Canadiens' Way.

Marinaro, for all of douchebaggery, makes a great point. MB can say he wants to make this team bigger and tougher to play against, all he wants but that's all lip service. Look at the players he's resigned and added. Bouillon, added, resigned. DD, resigned. Briere signed. Cole traded for Ryder. Small, small, small. He signed Prust, which is a great signing, but in the scheme of things, signing Parros and Murray to short term deals in limited roles, doesn't address the size issue this team has. Fans can quote the height/weight statistics all they want, i've seen 10-12 teams up close and personal at warm ups at BB and T, and the Habs are by far the smallest team in the league.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Haha, oh boy. Now trading Cole for Ryder is a mistake.

We got the last good year out of Erik Cole before his age caught up to him and he became a middling third line winger. He averages 14 minutes in Dallas and every time they try to play him top six he flops miserably. Bergevin saw it before everyone else and got rid of his albatross contract and got both a pick and Michael Ryder out of it. Ryder helped keep the pucks going right into the net but now I guess he was this big soft error. I guess it's better to have slowing down, middling, half hearted BIG BODIES like Bourque and Cole in the lineup than risk having a small player who is going to play hard every night. Oh wait, no it isn't.

And while I'm no fan of Desharnais, and that I feel he doesn't score enough to compensate for what little he brings in a full 60 minutes but he has 5 points in 5 games. In the 10 game stretch where Montreal is having considerable trouble getting on the board, DD is. Lars Eller has six points in his last 20 games. Desharnais has 14 in his last 20. Call them Pacioretty leech points or whatever you wish. Fact is, it takes goals to win games and DD is getting on the board. Right now, he isn't the problem.

Pacioretty has 17 in 20. DD has 14 in 20. Plek and Gio have 10 in 20. Galchenyuk and Gallagher have 8 in 20. Eller has 6 in 20. So why is the focus always on getting rid of Gionta, getting rid of Desharnais and trading Plekanec when his value is high when we could be having a discussion on what needs to happen to wake up the kids and get them back on track? Trade DD, Gio and Patches and suddenly we lose 34 of the points we scored in the last 20. What guarantee do we have in our next 20 that we're going to replace or increase on those points?

We need to be putting pucks in the net. This team needs a trade but if we move a guy who is scoring and don't get someone back who'll score more, we're just hurting the roster overall. Suggesting we should be Dallas and pick up the Erik Cole's of the world instead of getting rid of them is exactly the kind of thinking that got Joe Nieuwendyk fired. Thankfully, we were on the right side of that deal, even if all you care about is height measurements.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Haha, oh boy. Now trading Cole for Ryder is a mistake.

We got the last good year out of Erik Cole before his age caught up to him and he became a middling third line winger. He averages 14 minutes in Dallas and every time they try to play him top six he flops miserably. Bergevin saw it before everyone else and got rid of his albatross contract and got both a pick and Michael Ryder out of it. Ryder helped keep the pucks going right into the net but now I guess he was this big soft error. I guess it's better to have slowing down, middling, half hearted BIG BODIES like Bourque and Cole in the lineup than risk having a small player who is going to play hard every night. Oh wait, no it isn't.

And while I'm no fan of Desharnais, and that I feel he doesn't score enough to compensate for what little he brings in a full 60 minutes but he has 5 points in 5 games. In the 10 game stretch where Montreal is having considerable trouble getting on the board, DD is. Lars Eller has six points in his last 20 games. Desharnais has 14 in his last 20. Call them Pacioretty leech points or whatever you wish. Fact is, it takes goals to win games and DD is getting on the board. Right now, he isn't the problem.

Pacioretty has 17 in 20. DD has 14 in 20. Plek and Gio have 10 in 20. Galchenyuk and Gallagher have 8 in 20. Eller has 6 in 20. So why is the focus always on getting rid of Gionta, getting rid of Desharnais and trading Plekanec when his value is high when we could be having a discussion on what needs to happen to wake up the kids and get them back on track? Trade DD, Gio and Patches and suddenly we lose 34 of the points we scored in the last 20. What guarantee do we have in our next 20 that we're going to replace or increase on those points?

We need to be putting pucks in the net. This team needs a trade but if we move a guy who is scoring and don't get someone back who'll score more, we're just hurting the roster overall. Suggesting we should be Dallas and pick up the Erik Cole's of the world instead of getting rid of them is exactly the kind of thinking that got Joe Nieuwendyk fired. Thankfully, we were on the right side of that deal, even if all you care about is height measurements.

I think we were watching different game feeds. This "Ryder" you're describing, a Theo Fleury like dynamo wasn't on my TV last year. Or when I saw him twice in person. Ryder picked up a few goals in non-key situations, and was a complete no-show in the playoffs. And yes, if the end result is Briere on the third line instead of Cole, I will take Cole.

Here's an idea? Most successful teams find that it's not a Kierkegaard-style "either/or" proposition, many teams are able to find size and skill. Why aren't we drafting/signing/trading for these players? It's been going on for 20 years.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Ryder kept the scoring coming. 21 points in 27 games, 10 of which were goals. Six of those were PP goals which was best for Habs forwards. Hey, what's one of the big problems with our PP? Oh right, none of the forwards can score. Yeah, he flatlined in the playoffs. You know what Erik Cole has done most of his career? Flatlined in the playoffs (when not playing Montreal).

Bergevin has been a part of two drafts now. Why aren't we drafting those type of players? We got Galchenyuk, Bozon, McCarron, de la Rose and Crisp. All forwards with size, grit and character (Pee Wee Herman hears the word character, shouts it's the secret word, everyone goes crazy).

Yes, Briere has been a disappointment. But from what I've seen, Briere has not been used properly (he's one of our best in zone possession players) and even so, it doesn't answer what we do about the kids struggling with increased minutes after such a hot start.That's the real problem with a lot of the logic floating these days. The kids aren't scoring, but people want to strip away the veterans that are scoring in hopes they somehow start scoring with increased minutes when the extra three they are averaging now is causing their scoring to completely freeze up.

It would be nice to hear an argument that doesn't just sound like someone is cutting an old post out and replacing Gauthier's name with Bergevin's.