beliveau1 Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Even before the Habs face off against the Leafs in a vital 2 game series and regardless of what the standings are come next Monday morning, I'm really wondering if the Habs are best suited by an 8th place finish this year. Now let's get this straight before anyone has any misconceptions about this thread - I'm definitely not suggesting that they throw in the towel, or that they couldn't maybe steal a series this year. Instead my point is, given the overall talent pool of this years edition and the varying contract situations at seasons end, is a date with the best team in the east this year worth all the fuss. In other words, is a gaurantee of two home games against Carolina who has manhandled you all year, or the Sens who are pretty much the best team in the NHL(if Hasek is healthy) much preferred to a higher draft choice. When one really takes off their Habs fan hat and makes an honest appraisal of this edition, then I think there are few of us that would bet the farm on them winning the cup. Realistically the way the Habs have performed so far this season and given the overall depth of talent one can't pretend that they are a real contender right now. That doesn't mean we can't hope for a cup or cheer for it though! But the odds are against such a miracle on ice. Given the current lack of offense and the inadequacies of the blueline corps one has to wonder if you want the revenue of two home dates that don't increase cap space - they are only counted towards potential profits - when you have so many glaring deficiencies that need to be addressed. Or does one prefer to forgo a minimal chance of success in the playoffs for a higher draft choice that would possibly fill one of those areas. Personally I don't see any advantage in a date with the Hurricanes if they continue to play the way they have although I do have a feeling once in a while that they are like the Bruins of two years ago. Are they all just smoke & mirrors and maybe not as good in the playoffs like has happened to so many before? On the other hand the Sens are an enigma and have not yet really dominated the Habs so far this year despite their potential power? I know that if I were a manager of this club(thank goodness I'm not and we have Gainey instead) I'd opt for the higher draft choice. [Let the Leafs and their legions of hopeless fanatics seize their date with hopefully Ottawa and one awful butt-kicking to boot. Although the schedule heavily favours the Hurricanes date with first given their 5 games left against the Caps(can anyone believe their good fortune!) That way they just continue to linger in the land of 1967.....] Then dump a few of the contracts tied to one year deals that aren't conducive to a cup, make some solid off season signings and promote the young talent with an eye towards two years from now. Call me what you want to - I'm a long time habs fan and even though I want them to win it all I'm patient enough to see a long time contender built over the chance of a one time wonder. I'd prefer the draft to a date with four possibly lopsided defeats in round 1. Just my take on this and it's open for debate. Let's here the opininions of Habs fans everywhere(except for the 'what if' or we 'should have' chant - no more moaning over who we should have kept or what might have been!!!!!) :?- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 How about because the playoffs are awesome and their unpredictable. Not to mention the Habs have a chance of winning the Stanley Cup, you know, the freakin' thing everyone wants the Habs to win. You don't just play 82 games and realize "oh well the playoffs might not be a good idea, let's not make them are rely on a low draft pick." If the Habs were to do that you might has well kiss all your UFAs goodbye. Plus, if the Habs make the playoffs, UFAs are more interested in signing with the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 You never tank for a draft pick. Ludicrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarge Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Interesting point of view. I have to think that ethics are the key to this and every dilema. The team must allways stirve for success. They must give winning an honest attempt, consequences be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveStar Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 NEVER!! playoffs are the next series... have we forgoten what a number 8 seed can do to a number 1? if so ... please call the bruins.. theyll let you know ... tank the season for draft picks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Sorry Beliveau although I would give the Habs about a 1 in 80 shot of winning the cup this season, I would still rather the rookies and sophomores get more playoff experience. The Draft is a crapshoot usually exempting the first one or two picks but the Habs do not have a hope in hell of getting one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 The Habs have some serious playoff guys on the team. Koivu, Zednik, Kovalev all step it up - Ask the Bruins. Habs can win atleast one series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HABBER-oooooKNOWS Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 If you want the Habs to be a great team, it won't be because they have a good draft pick this year. Tanking the season to move up in the draft would send a great message to the young guys on the team(sarcasticly)........let alone the fans!!!!!! The best thing for our team right now would be play-off experience. Win or lose. Maby a lot of these kids will find themselves. Look what it did for Komi, last year. Man O Man...........These threads just keep getting better and better............. Why don't we tank the next 3 years so we might be awesome in 5years Geez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 (edited) Before you continue saying I suggested to tank this I stress that you actually read what I said word for word. I never once suggested they toss in the towel in my post - so I wasn't being ludicrous or even hoping they would deliberately miss the playoffs. The third sentence in the first paragraph makes that very clear if you read it carefully. Please get your facts straight before making your own incorrect insinuations regarding what I wrote. My question really is intended to provoke some debate on whether missing the playoffs this year is all that bad. It was not intended to suggest they take a dive and draw a higher draft. If I had my way they'd be well ahead and rested in a comfortable playoff spot, but the fact is they aren't and may not be there at the end of the season? I was only pointing out some of the benefits of not making the playoffs from a draft perspective. I was simply wondering out loud that missing the playoffs with this team isn't a disaster as some think. If you really think about it a date with a team that knocks you off in 4 is not going to induce free agents any more than missing the playoffs then you are truly misled(if it's Carolina this is the most likely scenario given the way they manhandle this years team - some times a team just has your number!) Free agents will sign based on contract, location, management, coaching and the future of the team that they pick. Not because you played one round in last years playoff and maybe won a game or two. The Habs will sign players that they can convince based on their future, not this years playoff record. I love the playoffs but I don't want to see a team waste one measly round and a lower draft with less upside on a stronger draft position either. If they make it in I won't regret it at all and I hope that the Habs to go as far as they can. But if they don't I won't be one of the fickle fans who seem to think that management is a failure and this team is a bunch of useless tools if they don't make it. A good solid offensive talented draft choice and some higher mid round choices that are big tough defenseman would be a decent consolation prize. I would not shed any tears if that happened. Throw it - never never never!!!!! It's not acceptable at any level under any circumstances at any time. (But the crueler side on me says that if they are just gonna get their ass kicked around in the first round, then it would definitely be a lot more fun watching Leaf fans squirming when it happens to them, wouldn't it?) p.s. I love a good debate and I don't expect everyone to agree with me - I ust wanted to point out the two aspects of making or missing the playoff and get some feedback. No need to insult my reasoning here?) Edited March 24, 2006 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Yes, it would be that bad. The young guys will gain a lot of experience form making the playoffs. Not to mention that we don't want them to get too used to losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gohabsgo252006 Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Another Brilliant thread. 1. Once you get to the playoffs you never knwo what will happen 2. Additional revenue, doesn't hurt managements willingness to spend more. 3. Playoff expereince good or bad, can only help young players as we try to build a winnner. Period done. Somebody should screen these threads before they are posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 (edited) If you want the Habs to be a great team, it won't be because they have a good draft pick this year. Tanking the season to move up in the draft would send a great message to the young guys on the team(sarcasticly)........let alone the fans!!!!!! The best thing for our team right now would be play-off experience. Win or lose. Maby a lot of these kids will find themselves. Look what it did for Komi, last year. Man O Man...........These threads just keep getting better and better............. Why don't we tank the next 3 years so we might be awesome in 5years Geez Did you see anywhere in my post that I said lets tank it now or over the next three years - I don't think so. I see a positive in both ends of the playoff drama. So there's no need to insult the integrity of this thread. I've probably been a habs's fan at least twice as long as the average age of members here, and I live & die with them as much as anyone else that frequents this forum. I respect yours and anyone elses right to disagree, and I may disagree with some posts on occasion, but I don't go out of my way to insinuate that the posts are asinine. Whatever happens with the Habs this year, I feel very confident that Gainey is building this team for a solid future. Edited March 24, 2006 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Another Brilliant thread. 1. Once you get to the playoffs you never knwo what will happen 2. Additional revenue, doesn't hurt managements willingness to spend more. 3. Playoff expereince good or bad, can only help young players as we try to build a winnner. Period done. Somebody should screen these threads before they are posted. Under the current cap system can you please explain how additional income induces a team to spend more? Especially when teams are already indicating that they learned a valuable lesson regarding breathing space - they aren't going to spend to the cap limit as it has trade deadline implications that hampered a lot of teams this year. And why should we screen posts that have no offensive content just because you disagree with a pattern of thought. I have no problem if anyone or even if everyone disagrees here. In fact I respect your passion for the Habs as it's measured by your desire to see them win yet another cup = amen to that thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I still think the best course for the team is to actually make the playoffs. Say they're the 16th seed in the , get swept out, then they have, what, the 15th pick? I think if they were bad the rest of the season, missed the playoffs, they would potentially only move up 3-4 spots. (Potential to hit the top ten, but that would require a major losing streak with some teams really putting some wins together). So, the end result is do I want the Habs players to get some playoff experience, have potential (albeit slim) to move forward, or would it be ok if they missed the playoffs. As more than just a casual fan, I want them in the playoffs, and will not be happy if this team can't put it together and get there. Regarding the title to your thread "is a date...what the Habs need, I say yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HABBER-oooooKNOWS Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 @ beliveau Didn't mean to insult you. Read it again quickly, and it sounds like you would opt for moving up in the draft rather then take a beating in the first round...... I disagree completely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 I still think the best course for the team is to actually make the playoffs. Say they're the 16th seed in the , get swept out, then they have, what, the 15th pick? I think if they were bad the rest of the season, missed the playoffs, they would potentially only move up 3-4 spots. (Potential to hit the top ten, but that would require a major losing streak with some teams really putting some wins together). So, the end result is do I want the Habs players to get some playoff experience, have potential (albeit slim) to move forward, or would it be ok if they missed the playoffs. As more than just a casual fan, I want them in the playoffs, and will not be happy if this team can't put it together and get there. Regarding the title to your thread "is a date...what the Habs need, I say yes. Huzer your opinion is respected and appreciated - that was the type of discussion I was trying to spark. I hope they make the playoffs and I will be somewhat disappointed if they don't, but not devastated. I think playoff experience will help a great deal as far the young players are concerned. However an outright disaster may not. Not all playoff experience is a gauranteed recipe for success. As a fan I would pick a date with the #1 seed any day and hope for an upset. As a long time hockey coach and manager I do however see the opposite benefits of not making it after making a good run at it. If they are there you can be sure that I'll be front row and centre watching it from the heart of Leafland..... And loving every minute of it!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) @ beliveau Didn't mean to insult you. Read it again quickly, and it sounds like you would opt for moving up in the draft rather then take a beating in the first round...... I disagree completely Apology accepted - thanks! No I don't really prefer that to a date in the playoffs, but to a bad beating I have some second thoughts as to the benefits. Not all playoff experience naturally translates to being good. I've coached teams at a high level that just fell apart after a bad beating at tournaments, so have seen pressure cooker experience actually backfire and have adverse consequences. I'm not suggesting that is the case here though. I just am saying that I won't lose my will to live if they end up out of the playoffs. Edited March 24, 2006 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 You always want to make the playoffs. ALWAYS!!!! Because you just never know. Besides, whats the difference between a 16th overall pick and a 20th overall pick? Not much. Or maybe if you look at the 2000 NHL draft. Montreal selected 16th and took Marcel Hossa. Los Angelas selected 20th and took Frolov. Whats the difference between a 16th overall pick and a 19th, 22nd or 24th overall pick. Not much. Or maybe if you look at the '98 draft, Montreal selected Eric Chouinard. Simon Gagne, Robyn Regehr and Christian Backman were all taken after. Much like the playoffs you never know what happens. ALWAYS PLAY HARD. ALWAYS MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. You just never know, and it just goes to show that a higher pick doesn't mean anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 You always want to make the playoffs. ALWAYS!!!! Because you just never know. Besides, whats the difference between a 16th overall pick and a 20th overall pick? Not much. Or maybe if you look at the 2000 NHL draft. Montreal selected 16th and took Marcel Hossa. Los Angelas selected 20th and took Frolov. Whats the difference between a 16th overall pick and a 19th, 22nd or 24th overall pick. Not much. Or maybe if you look at the '98 draft, Montreal selected Eric Chouinard. Simon Gagne, Robyn Regehr and Christian Backman were all taken after. Much like the playoffs you never know what happens. ALWAYS PLAY HARD. ALWAYS MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. You just never know, and it just goes to show that a higher pick doesn't mean anything Kaos - I agree wholeheartedly that you always play hard, and that you are always striving to make the playoffs - you never know what will happen once you get your foot in the door. I never suggested otherwise. And you're right when you say that there isn't much difference between picking 16 & 20, but a higher pick definitely means something when you have sound management in place. The poor choices you are refering to didn't happen on the Gainey watch so it's unfair to evaluate this upcoming draft solely on that basis. With Savard monitoring talent I don't see any reason to not like picking higer in the draft. If I put a gun to your head and said you have two choices - do you want the nuber 16 or the number 20 draft pick. I think one would be a fool to say I have no problem with taking the 20th pick. I want them in the playoffs too, but also I want to see a much better makeup to this team than we currently have. This roster is not a strong cup contender as it stands, and given the real restraints of a salary cap the best route to rebuilding is through the draft. I was merely pointing out the fact that not all is lost if you miss the playoffs as some suggest. I don't see any real major downside to not making the playoffs, that is provided that you make good use of that draft situation(other than the fact you have to wait all summer to see the CH in action againand that's a long and excruciating wait for an old Habs fan like me!) However if they don't have a strong then you've just squandered playoff revenue, valuable playoff experience as well as the future. All said ..... I hope we go far as possible in the playoffs so it's not as long to wait! I'm just not holding my breath in anticipation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Love Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Beliveau I think your frame of thinking is the problem. You automatically say it would be more advantageous to have a higher draft pick than to go out in four games. That is the problem right there. I honestly believe that we can beat Carolina. This team is not all that different than the team that was sitting at the top of the NHL at the beginning of the season. There is no reason why we can't get back there come playoff time. We are more solid in goal now than we were then, not to mention in 2004 nobody expected Calgary to get out of the first round, a hot goalie can do a lot for a young hungry team, especially in Montreal. Imagine how Montrealers will react if we "upset" Carolina. The whole city will be pandemoneum for the remainder of the playoffs, which these young players will feed off of, and the further we go the wider the excitment gets until the whole Country is behind us. I think you are gravely underestimating what this team is capable of. I know you said that you never meant for the team to take a dive, but suggesting that we will most likely lose in the first round is a very defeatist attitude. P.S. - If we make it in and Toronto doesn't, that is almost as good as a cup anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) Who knows? Maybe Stall or Alfie break their ankle or something. The '93 cup was a fluke by many analysts accounts (they can kiss my ___...it wasn't a fluke!) but a "fluke" could happen any year in the NHL. You never know. I say, "ROLL THE BONES!" Edited March 24, 2006 by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Roll the Bones I love it. 93 was no fluke. It was Roy with a dash of timely overtime scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Roll the Bones I love it. 93 was no fluke. It was Roy with a dash of timely overtime scoring. ...And LeClair killed LA. I wouldn't know how to react if I met LeClair. Shake his hand for his habs days or punch him for the Philly days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I have met the guy a few times he is very nice in person. I met him when I was a young kid he smiled and obliged with plenty of autographs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Beliveau I think your frame of thinking is the problem. You automatically say it would be more advantageous to have a higher draft pick than to go out in four games. That is the problem right there. I honestly believe that we can beat Carolina. This team is not all that different than the team that was sitting at the top of the NHL at the beginning of the season. There is no reason why we can't get back there come playoff time. We are more solid in goal now than we were then, not to mention in 2004 nobody expected Calgary to get out of the first round, a hot goalie can do a lot for a young hungry team, especially in Montreal. Imagine how Montrealers will react if we "upset" Carolina. The whole city will be pandemoneum for the remainder of the playoffs, which these young players will feed off of, and the further we go the wider the excitment gets until the whole Country is behind us. I think you are gravely underestimating what this team is capable of. I know you said that you never meant for the team to take a dive, but suggesting that we will most likely lose in the first round is a very defeatist attitude. P.S. - If we make it in and Toronto doesn't, that is almost as good as a cup anyway. I never count out the possibility of winning in any fashion in the playoffs. I always say go as deep as you can and gain as much experience as you can if you get the chance to. And I'm not defeatist either. As a coach I never accept anything less than the very best they can give from an athlete. If I ask you to skate through a brick wall then I don't think you should stop to ask any questions about how to get back through it. It's the way I responded to my coaches when I played and I see no need to change that approach. Play it hard, play it tough and mean, and play it by the rules..... it gains respect and it makes you a winner in more ways than one! I'm a realist and I look at both sides of the coin in assessing the situation. What I said was that I prefer a higher draft choice under Bob over a thrashing if it occurs. I'm not saying they aren't capable of advancing either. I don't equate a higher draft choice to an automatic advantage either - it is dependant on your ability to evaluate talent and then pick it in your spot. I think the odds of getting better talent with a higher pick is much better under this administration than it has been in a long time, and that is the only possible upside I see to my point. I don't prefer a # 16 draft pick to a date in the playoffs. Both the good and the bad come with managing a team. Recognizing the gains you make from the final results are as important as acknowledging the negatives that are incurred. I deal with the high expectations of players, parents and fans all the time in my role - it never ceases to amaze me that winning is their only measure for success. The sentiment you expressed in the last line of your post is indicative of the fan mode in you - and my fan side says if the Habs don't make it then the Leafs better not either as they are a much worse team than the Habs. Can we beat Carolina - any thing is possible, but they better figure out how to soon if they match up in the first or second round. Personally I think the 'Canes are not for real. That they are maybe the Bruins of 2 years ago. All just smoke and mirrors..... but time will tell? p.s. the Leafs have been shooting it all for a run of one shot wonders the past few years and look where it's got them. No cup and no real hope of one at this point. Do you want that for just a long shot at the finals or do you want more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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