Things to consider

[KoZed]

I've decided to dedicate a thread about those little details that some people often forget when it comes to judging players performances. They are small but subtle facts that weight in a player's performance, but which often get overlooked. Its tiring to always bring those little things back in conversations, so I've decided to gather them up in a thread in hope people take notice. Here goes nothing:

1- Plekanec Case: Playing center is harder than playing on the wing

Centers always have more responsabilities than wingers. Centers have to take charge of the line, call the shots, take faceoffs, be the first one to help out defensemen, etc. So the center position is harder than the winger position. Its a little detail often overlooked when people start raging on Plekanec. Just remember how Higgins exploded last season when moved from C to LW especially for younger players; or how playing C put a damp on Begin's firery style at the start of the season, as exemples of how the center position is difficult.

2- Niinimaa Case: Defensemen have a natural side.

Defensemen have a side: left side or right side. This is usually the same side as their stick side. Defense is a position where you have to act fast, and a great deal of the moves defensemen do during a game needs to become automatism. For example, a sequence such as: skate backwards, turn, get to the puck and pass. When a defenseman is moved to his non-natural side, all those automatisms dont work anymore. Its almost the same as starting from scratch. It will make any defenseman look slower, dumber and clumsier than what he really his when playing his natural side.

3- Latendresse Case: Progression matters most for young players.

Development takes time. Especially for young players. The process of reaching peak performance is a matter of years. Before getting there, what matters the most is progression. When you've got players as young as Latendresse, this progress is often about things so fundamental that they go unnoticed: positionning without the puck, following your man, dumping the puck when necessary, knowing when to take risks or not, etc. So improvement and progression in those areas often have no influence on stats, but they are a sign of success.

That's the 3 most reccurent I can think of this early in the morning, but if you know more, feel free to add them!

[ch_nl]

Agree.

And maybe that's why Plekanec shouldn't be centering a second line? Samsonov and Kovalev are the most skilled players on this edition of the Montreal Canadiens. Plekanec is a solid two-way player that would look great on the left wing.

Higgins is having great chemistry with Koivu and Ryder and therefore it't not an option to break them apart. But it will be inevitable to try Higgins at the center on the second line if things won't work for Kovalev, Plekanec and Samsonov.

Edited November 4, 2006 by ch_nl

[smon]

Agree.

And maybe that's why Plekanec should be centering a second line? Samsonov and Kovalev are the most skilled players on this edition of the Montreal Canadiens. Plekanec is a solid two-way player that would look great on the left wing.

Higgins is having great chemistry with Koivu and Ryder and therefore it't not an option to break them apart. But it will be inevitable to try Higgins at the center on the second line if things won't work for Kovalev, Plekanec and Samsonov.

I don't understand what you're saying?

You say Plekanec should be centring the second line, then you say he would look great on the left wing.

You're contradicting yourself?

And also, things already didn't work for Kovalev, Plekanec and Samsonov. The team's now using Perezhogin, Kovalev at centre and Samsonov.

[MAK]

4. the puck moves faters then any players.

I gind that montreal on even strenght are ineffective and thats because they don't pass the puck enough cough*kovalev* cough. passing the puck more often would open the game and force opposing dmen to take bad decision. but we do the opposite. we try tp carry the puck . attract a player then pass to an open teammate. what it actually does is it gives the opposing team enough time to settle it's defense.

it really struck me the 1st game we played against buffalo. the sabres passed the puck so often that it caught montreal offguard.

[brobin]

Sounds like excuses for the reason your favorite players are not performing as well as you want.

Yes, center is harder, that is why Pleks doesn't belong on the second line at all. He is having more success now because he is playing within his limits. You might also want to apply your logic to Ribs last year. That poor guy had to play center too, no wonder he only averaged 57 points a season... LOL

Yes, Niinimaa is playing on the wrong side and that could impact his ability to properly play his defensive position. It doesn't explain his inability to make a clearing play, or keep the puck the offensive zone. He is as best, a marginal defenseman. Oh, and he didn't play any better last year on his natural side.

Lats.. well, if you want to make that argument, there are a bunch of guys in the AHL how might think they deserve that long, slow development approach while making an NHL salary. Personally, I am not convinced Lats is going to turn into John Leclair anytime soon. I do think he will get better over time, but so far, he looks pretty rough. If you look around the league, there are plenty of better players that have been sent down for more development.

In any case, time will tell and I hope you are right on all three!

[Talon]

Just remember how Higgins exploded last season when moved from C to LW

Higgins was moved to the wing when he was drafted, not last year....I might be wrong but I don't recall Higgins playing center at all...

Edited November 4, 2006 by Talon

[ch_nl]

Misstyped. Makes better sense now?

[bebehabs]

Higgins was moved to the wing when he was drafted, not last year....I might be wrong but I don't recall Higgins playing center at all...

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdispla...pid%5B%5D=62984

[Dalhabs]

Sounds like excuses for the reason your favorite players are not performing as well as you want.

Yes, center is harder, that is why Pleks doesn't belong on the second line at all. He is having more success now because he is playing within his limits. You might also want to apply your logic to Ribs last year. That poor guy had to play center too, no wonder he only averaged 57 points a season... LOL

We didnt get rid of him becaus he didnt get enough points. Points isnt everything brobin. Ribs thought he was Mario Lemieux and liked to trashtalk his team mates and THAT is why he is gone.

Niinima = Robidas all over again Kozed? I remember you talking about Robidas the same way before we lost him.

[Talon]

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdispla...pid%5B%5D=62984

The Canadiens website also has him listed as a center but I still don't remember him ever playing there. Even when I watched him play for the Bulldogs it was normally Higgins/Plekanec/Miettinen.

I recall, and I can't remember where I heard this (probably second hand off of this board), that although Higgins was drafted as a center there were questions about his creativity with the puck, hence the move to the wing.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Talon

[bombTHEice]

Here's an old interview where he's asked about his move from center to wing:

HF: What about the move to the wing from center?

CH: No, not really. I feel pretty comfortable playing both positions. It’s a different type of game if you’ve played both positions, where you cover and stuff but I feel pretty comfortable.

http://hockeysfuture.com/article.php?sid=7...ded&order=0

Btw. Also in this interview:

HF: Any other Habs from the past that you really liked?

CH: Kirk Muller, I liked watching him because he was a great leader and a great two-way player who scored big goals in the playoffs in ’93.

That's an interview from 2004, so Higgins must have been pretty happy when Muller joined the HABS this summer.

[Talon]

*Just a note* I agree with Kozed (playing the wing versus playing center).

[huzer]

I recall, and I can't remember where I heard this (probably second hand off of this board), that although Higgins was drafted as a center there were questions about his creativity with the puck, hence the move to the wing.

Man, I wish I could find it, but I remember Savard talking about Higgins being used as a winger rather than a center when they drafted him. He didn't explode when he moved to LW, he did so when moved up. One thing I never liked about Julien was his strange reluctance to play the young players more. After Gainey took the helm last year, that's when Plekanec and Higgins got more ice time.

I agree with the other points. I don't think they're "excused" at all. Nobody ever said Niinimaa was a top pairing dman. The only time I think it benefits a dman to play his off side is as a point man on the PP, when the shot lane opens up a lot better. Defensively...not a good idea. Latendress is freakin' 19 and people are busting on him to return to JR. Give him a break. I'll trust the coach on his decisions on who to play when and where.

[Mr. Nasty]

Sounds like excuses for the reason your favorite players are not performing as well as you want.

Yes, center is harder, that is why Pleks doesn't belong on the second line at all. He is having more success now because he is playing within his limits. You might also want to apply your logic to Ribs last year. That poor guy had to play center too, no wonder he only averaged 57 points a season... LOL

Yes, Niinimaa is playing on the wrong side and that could impact his ability to properly play his defensive position. It doesn't explain his inability to make a clearing play, or keep the puck the offensive zone. He is as best, a marginal defenseman. Oh, and he didn't play any better last year on his natural side.

Lats.. well, if you want to make that argument, there are a bunch of guys in the AHL how might think they deserve that long, slow development approach while making an NHL salary. Personally, I am not convinced Lats is going to turn into John Leclair anytime soon. I do think he will get better over time, but so far, he looks pretty rough. If you look around the league, there are plenty of better players that have been sent down for more development.

In any case, time will tell and I hope you are right on all three!

I agree with your comments about Niinimaa and somehwat with Pleks but you lost me on Lats. And any comments about Ribs should be banned...he is playing on the 4th line in Dallas but is helping them on the powerplay only...something the habs are doing just fine with.

Yes, Niinimaa would take all the minor penalties no matter which side he is playing and I agree that he is a depth guy. I can't see him dressing if both Bouillion and Dandenault were healthy. I am not too upset about Niinimaa's overall play as he is better than anyone other defenders on the farm at the moment...he just needs to move his feet more and quit holding/hooking.

Plekanec has been a center his entire career and just does not have the raw skill to be a top 2-line centre. He is a good 2-way 3rd liner that is good at killing penalties...but he is not the playmaking centre the Habs need and never will be. He kinda reminds me of Bulis but a little fiestier.

Comparing Lats to a player developing in the AHL is completely irrelevant. Is he NHL ready...not really but he cannot be sent to the AHL where he could play 18-20 mins a game. Juniors would only slow his development so the Habs have to to develop him in the NHL...regardless of his NHL salary. Personally I feel Lapierre has earned a ticket to the NHL and would compliment the 3rd/4th better. That being said, if Lats plays as well as he has the last couple games then I don't mind him as a crash and banger in the NHL.

[Fanpuck33]

Personally, I am not convinced Lats is going to turn into John Leclair anytime soon.

Oh man, don't even joke about that! LeClair was BRUTAL with the Habs! Both are big guys, but Lats actually plays the body. LeClair was a big guy who preferred a less physical game. As a result, he was only successdul when paired with other All-Star talent. Latendresse is a totally different case. With his fondness for the physical game, he will be able to learn how to create chances on his own at the NHL level. He's already showing he can bang around at the NHL level, and he is serving his role. In time he'll have more chances to create offense and we'll see what he can do.

Basically, he's doing what he has been asked to do: work hard and hit people.

[brobin]

We didnt get rid of him becaus he didnt get enough points. Points isnt everything brobin. Ribs thought he was Mario Lemieux and liked to trashtalk his team mates and THAT is why he is gone.

Niinima = Robidas all over again Kozed? I remember you talking about Robidas the same way before we lost him.

I never said keep Ribs. If that was the reason they dumped him (and I think that is mostly made up fan crap), it still is not relevant to the my statement.

The fact is, Ribs was ripped for a lot of silly things last year. This year, the same things are being used as excuses for other players.

This is not really about ribs or pleks. It is about fans constantly being horrendously biased based on whether they like a guy or not. People like Pleks ( I like Pleks), but that doesn't mean we need to wear rose coloured glasses regarding him (and lats). People hated Ribs, hence he could do no right.

Fortunately, good GMs do not react that way. They base their evaluations on what happens on the ice, and in the room.

[brobin]

I agree with your comments about Niinimaa and somehwat with Pleks but you lost me on Lats. And any comments about Ribs should be banned...he is playing on the 4th line in Dallas but is helping them on the powerplay only...something the habs are doing just fine with.

Yes, Niinimaa would take all the minor penalties no matter which side he is playing and I agree that he is a depth guy. I can't see him dressing if both Bouillion and Dandenault were healthy. I am not too upset about Niinimaa's overall play as he is better than anyone other defenders on the farm at the moment...he just needs to move his feet more and quit holding/hooking.

Plekanec has been a center his entire career and just does not have the raw skill to be a top 2-line centre. He is a good 2-way 3rd liner that is good at killing penalties...but he is not the playmaking centre the Habs need and never will be. He kinda reminds me of Bulis but a little fiestier.

Comparing Lats to a player developing in the AHL is completely irrelevant. Is he NHL ready...not really but he cannot be sent to the AHL where he could play 18-20 mins a game. Juniors would only slow his development so the Habs have to to develop him in the NHL...regardless of his NHL salary. Personally I feel Lapierre has earned a ticket to the NHL and would compliment the 3rd/4th better. That being said, if Lats plays as well as he has the last couple games then I don't mind him as a crash and banger in the NHL.

Yes, Lats is somewhat different because he cannot go to the AHL. Still, he is getting a ton of ice time with very little to show for it, ahead of other players in the system. I personally believe this is because he is from Quebec and they just shipped ribs and Theo away. Have to appease the home town fans.

As for his hitting, we can get that from downey and murray. We need Lats to do more that just hit people. We need him to show he belongs in the NHL.

I can't think of any other team that has a guy that young playing up who is not ripping it up. Staal for example earned his right to stay in the NHL. Bergeron did when we was with the Bruins too. Lats? I don't see it. I sure hope he comes around before his development (and confidence) is shattered by this.

I would rather he be up in a year or two when he is truely ready to play at this level.

Edited November 4, 2006 by brobin

[Gord]

Give Lats a little more time. He's been playing a little better every game. The last couple of games he's been playing the body well and creating opportunities. He looks more and more comfortable all the time. I don't think it's going to be too long before he starts playing the way he did to garner all the attention in the first place.

[KoZed]

Give Lats a little more time. He's been playing a little better every game. The last couple of games he's been playing the body well and creating opportunities. He looks more and more comfortable all the time. I don't think it's going to be too long before he starts playing the way he did to garner all the attention in the first place.

Yup...

Carbo and Gainey kept Latendresse because they believed he was a piece they needed to achieve their strategic goal... and I think that goal is set somewhere in April & May, not in the first 10 games of the season.

As for the other prospects, they all had a chance to win a spot during the preseason and Latendresse outplayed them all. Latendresse earned his spot then, even after getting a concussion and a shoulder injury before the camp opened.

Pretty simple: Latendresse leaped over all the other prospects in the training camp; and now he's the one getting a chance to play regularly and he's progressing even if its not obvious to most.

[brobin]

Yup...

Carbo and Gainey kept Latendresse because they believed he was a piece they needed to achieve their strategic goal... and I think that goal is set somewhere in April & May, not in the first 10 games of the season.

As for the other prospects, they all had a chance to win a spot during the preseason and Latendresse outplayed them all. Latendresse earned his spot then, even after getting a concussion and a shoulder injury before the camp opened.

Pretty simple: Latendresse leaped over all the other prospects in the training camp; and now he's the one getting a chance to play regularly and he's progressing even if its not obvious to most.

I hope you are right, but I didn't think Lats outplayed the other prospects. Carbo even admitted the decision was pretty much made before camp.

Now the previous camp, he was definitely hot, no question.

Still, I find it hard to believe that he is here because of his play, or his junior status. I fully believe he is up because they need a new "Quebec Hero" and they are working their butts off trying to make him one. I just hope it doesn't go to his head (ie. Riberio) or it damages his real development.

I can't imagine what Higgins thinks when he listens to them chant Gui, Gui, Gui!

[Gord]

I hope you are right, but I didn't think Lats outplayed the other prospects. Carbo even admitted the decision was pretty much made before camp.

Now the previous camp, he was definitely hot, no question.

Still, I find it hard to believe that he is here because of his play, or his junior status. I fully believe he is up because they need a new "Quebec Hero" and they are working their butts off trying to make him one. I just hope it doesn't go to his head (ie. Riberio) or it damages his real development.

I can't imagine what Higgins thinks when he listens to them chant Gui, Gui, Gui!

I don't think that what Higgins thinks should enter into it at all. As has been stated in another thread Higgins has his contract coming up and he will be just fine.

But I believe Gainey and Carbs see what this kid can be and feel that he can do it fairly quickly - maybe even quicker than Higgins who was fairly invisible in the early going last year.

[KoZed]

I fully believe he is up because they need a new "Quebec Hero" and they are working their butts off trying to make him one.

That's insulting toward Gainey and the coaching staff, as well as Latendresse. If Chipchura had earned a place would it be because they tried to make a "Western Hero"?

Latendresse earned his place and the hockey staff try to put together the best team they can. Hockey is too much of a cut-throat business to start playing that kind of game.

Carbo warned everyone that patience would be necessary with Latendresse. They expected people would whine that the kid shouldn't be in the NHL. But saying he's only there because he's from Quebec, that's very low.

[brobin]

That's insulting toward Gainey and the coaching staff, as well as Latendresse. If Chipchura had earned a place would it be because they tried to make a "Western Hero"?

Latendresse earned his place and the hockey staff try to put together the best team they can. Hockey is too much of a cut-throat business to start playing that kind of game.

Carbo warned everyone that patience would be necessary with Latendresse. They expected people would whine that the kid shouldn't be in the NHL. But saying he's only there because he's from Quebec, that's very low.

You must be kidding. Damn near every hockey guy I have heard has brought this up. You don't think that Gainey and Carbo would not keep him up to appease the crowds? Hockey is entertainment. Its not like Lats really sucks, and no one can blame them if he fails. But if they didn't keep him up it would be a distraction.

I know you are a big lats fan, but lets not be naive about it. In Pitts, they seriously considered sending Staal back, who is playing ten times better then Lats.

You can believe what you want, but there is no way this guy is up because he has earned it. At best, he didn't suck enough to be sent back, leaving Gainey with no choice but to give him his shot. He better start using this gift, or next year, he will be in the AHL.

[brobin]

By the way, Lats is -6, zero points, and is only 4th on the team in Hits. Begin has almost double the hits, and Komi and Ryder are also ahead of him.

So, no offense. No defense. Not even being the huge impact player.

If this was any other player, people would be talking trade or dump. I am definitely against that, by the way.

If this is our best prospect, we are in trouble. I choose to believe that if he was eligible for the AHL, or was not from Quebec, he would not be on the team right now, but one of the other prospects would be.

I sure hope he gets better (I agree he has shown some improvement the last couple of games), because we burned a year of his free agency.

[Dalhabs]

I would like to see what Let's undress could do on the Koivu line.

I bet if someone could get him going its Koivu. Btw, Im quite sure that none of the other prospects would get many points playing on a 4th line either. Give him a shot with Koivu, he is the big powerforward we allways wanted for Koivu so give it a try Carbonneau.