Another François Gagnon interesting article

[JoeLassister]

This come from François Gagnon in La Presse of february 12 2007.

When we make the average of points of the best scorer of the team during the last 10 years, the Canadian is classified very last one with only 65 points. And, if we add Columbus, Nashville, Atlanta and Minnesota, we are 27th. 27TH DAMN !!! ( top 3 teams are Pittsburgh 105 with Jagr and Lemieux, Colorado 95 with Sakic and Anaheim 86 with Selanne and Kariya.)

That makes the point about what i was saying in the thread "we need to finish last couple of times". Our best players CAN'T COMPETE with the best players of the other teams. Bottom line. We need all-stars players on this team and by finishing 15th every seasons and by not improving with UFA's and trade (because we have nothing to give to get an all-stars...) we will never improve our top 2 lines.

All the players but Selanne that i named upthere were drafted by the team and had a good career and will all be All of Famers (we'll see for Kariya) . Do you think Higgins, Komi, Kots, Fisher, etc will be one of those? Not me...

[Wamsley01]

This come from François Gagnon in La Presse of february 12 2007.

When we make the average of points of the best scorer of the team during the last 10 years, the Canadian is classified very last one with only 65 points. And, if we add Columbus, Nashville, Atlanta and Minnesota, we are 27th. 27TH DAMN !!! ( top 3 teams are Pittsburgh 105 with Jagr and Lemieux, Colorado 95 with Sakic and Anaheim 86 with Selanne and Kariya.)

That makes the point about what i was saying in the thread "we need to finish last couple of times". Our best players CAN'T COMPETE with the best players of the other teams. Bottom line. We need all-stars players on this team and by finishing 15th every seasons and by not improving with UFA's and trade (because we have nothing to give to get an all-stars...) we will never improve our top 2 lines.

All the players but Selanne that i named upthere were drafted by the team and had a good career and will all be All of Famers (we'll see for Kariya) . Do you think Higgins, Komi, Kots, Fisher, etc will be one of those? Not me...

Where does Jersey rank in that list?

[JoeLassister]

Where does Jersey rank in that list?

They are not mentioned in the article. Not in the top 9 and not in the bottom 4. Somewhere between 10th and 26th.

[hab29RETIRED]

This come from François Gagnon in La Presse of february 12 2007.

When we make the average of points of the best scorer of the team during the last 10 years, the Canadian is classified very last one with only 65 points. And, if we add Columbus, Nashville, Atlanta and Minnesota, we are 27th. 27TH DAMN !!! ( top 3 teams are Pittsburgh 105 with Jagr and Lemieux, Colorado 95 with Sakic and Anaheim 86 with Selanne and Kariya.)

That makes the point about what i was saying in the thread "we need to finish last couple of times". Our best players CAN'T COMPETE with the best players of the other teams. Bottom line. We need all-stars players on this team and by finishing 15th every seasons and by not improving with UFA's and trade (because we have nothing to give to get an all-stars...) we will never improve our top 2 lines.

All the players but Selanne that i named upthere were drafted by the team and had a good career and will all be All of Famers (we'll see for Kariya) . Do you think Higgins, Komi, Kots, Fisher, etc will be one of those? Not me...

I don't think the habs will EVER have a true league leading calibar top scorer that they develop themselves until there is a serious shift in their philosophy. Any player with offensive potential ends up playing with grinders on the 3rd or 4th line and is forced to "learn" how to play defence for a couple of years before mgmt shows any confidence in him.

Tonight it was a joke seeing Milroy on the 4th line. I think if you are going to bring up your leading scorer, you give him a chance playing on one of your two top lines. Why the hell is Ryder getting a free pass??? Koivu is also starting to really dissapoint me as well this past few weeks. He has had slumps before, but at least the effort looked like it was there, the last 5-6 games the effort has not even been there.

Anyway, to get back to my original point, the biggest reason (other then poor drafting), the habs don't develop offensive players, is that they never let them get confidence scoring first. Defence is easy to learn. but you can't teach a checker to score.

[Nesquik]

Tonight it was a joke seeing Milroy on the 4th line. I think if you are going to bring up your leading scorer, you give him a chance playing on one of your two top lines.

I completely agree. Milroy is a scorer, he doesn't deserve to be on the 4th line, it's not really his style, Lapierre his a decent center and can play during PP and SH so he plays most of his time their, but Milroy didn't play in PP or when they were short handed, so he played like 5 minutes, you expect him to score 5 goals?

[Wamsley01]

I don't think the habs will EVER have a true league leading calibar top scorer that they develop themselves until there is a serious shift in their philosophy. Any player with offensive potential ends up playing with grinders on the 3rd or 4th line and is forced to "learn" how to play defence for a couple of years before mgmt shows any confidence in him.

Tonight it was a joke seeing Milroy on the 4th line. I think if you are going to bring up your leading scorer, you give him a chance playing on one of your two top lines. Why the hell is Ryder getting a free pass??? Koivu is also starting to really dissapoint me as well this past few weeks. He has had slumps before, but at least the effort looked like it was there, the last 5-6 games the effort has not even been there.

Anyway, to get back to my original point, the biggest reason (other then poor drafting), the habs don't develop offensive players, is that they never let them get confidence scoring first. Defence is easy to learn. but you can't teach a checker to score.

My big fear is that Gainey and Carbo are caught in the past.

It was the Habs way for years to teach their kids how to playo both ways before anything else...andit worked. But we have not even developed a Shayne Corson/Stephane Richer level talent in 20 years.

And when you pound defense into their heads, maybe they are not reaching their offensive potentials because of it

[hab29RETIRED]

I completely agree. Milroy is a scorer, he doesn't deserve to be on the 4th line, it's not really his style, Lapierre his a decent center and can play during PP and SH so he plays most of his time their, but Milroy didn't play in PP or when they were short handed, so he played like 5 minutes, you expect him to score 5 goals?

yeah, carbo's moves have really left me disspointed. Even when they were having success, the teams 5 on 5 play was horrorandous and the way he handled samsonov was bad as well. Carbo was a scorer who became a very good checker, maybe he wants all of his players play like that.

It seems everything the habs do is terrible. Whenever they are trying to move the puck out of their zone, it is a disaster waiting to happen. Their D has got to be the absolute WORST in the league. There just is no urgency or pressure when they are forechecking. They can't seem to make 3 straight passes (wht the exception of the bonk goal), without passing into someone's skates or behind someone.

[Dalhabs]

Sign Pavel Brendl in the off season. He scores more goals in sweden atm than anyone else has in years I think. You can say all you want about another floater on the team but this guy is a goalscorer and thats something we dont have at all atm.

[smon]

Brendl failed in the NHL before - what's changed now?

But yeah, it pisses me off. Montreal just can't find scoring forwards. I don't know why and I don't really care, I just want them to get it going now.

[JoeLassister]

Sign Pavel Brendl in the off season. He scores more goals in sweden atm than anyone else has in years I think. You can say all you want about another floater on the team but this guy is a goalscorer and thats something we dont have at all atm.

It will never arrive but does somebody can find a Russian coach who speaks french ???

Where does Jersey rank in that list?

I guess you wanted to say that New Jerseys don't have any scorers and won few cups....

Back in the days, a dumb ass let Roy take 9 goals during a game. 5 days later, we didn't have any chances to look like New Jersey because another dumb ass made the worst trade ever for our ONLY 10 years back all-star players.

Edited February 18, 2007 by JoeLassister

[smon]

It will never arrive but does somebody can find a Russian coach who speaks french ???

I guess you wanted to say that New Jerseys don't have any scorers and won few cups....

Back in the days, a dumb ass let Roy take 9 goals during a game. 5 days later, we didn't have any chances to look like New Jersey because another dumb ass made the worst trade ever for our ONLY 10 years back all-star players.

Yeah, man Houle was bad. It sort of is pitiful in a way since the poor guy really didn't know jack about management, he really felt he was making good trades. When he was fired he cried and he said ""I'm 51 and this is the first time in my life I'll be getting up and I won't have a job to go to. I don't know what I'll do. I don't have any hobbies or anything. I've always enjoyed working."

If that isn't sad I don't know what is. Being GM was his identity and he was atrocious at it.

[JoeLassister]

Yeah, man Houle was bad. It sort of is pitiful in a way since the poor guy really didn't know jack about management, he really felt he was making good trades. When he was fired he cried and he said ""I'm 51 and this is the first time in my life I'll be getting up and I won't have a job to go to. I don't know what I'll do. I don't have any hobbies or anything. I've always enjoyed working."

If that isn't sad I don't know what is. Being GM was his identity and he was atrocious at it.

I think he did a good job for the habs.... as the president of the former candadien's club ...

Edited February 18, 2007 by JoeLassister

[Aebischer4life]

Where does Jersey rank in that list?

Jersey has had quite a few superstars. Elias I think scored 90+ points a couple year.. Gionta last year scored 50 goals.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The argument reinforces the case for pulling a Geordi LaForge: EJECT THE CORE!!!

Seriously, though, we need some first-line talent - especially at C. Souray would be the asset that, as part of a package, might get us that, so I hope that Bob acts accordingly.

[JoeLassister]

Jersey has had quite a few superstars. Elias I think scored 90+ points a couple year.. Gionta last year scored 50 goals.

True Elias is way better than anybody the Habs had since Marc Recchi.

[stjrandy]

The team is caught in hell really. They don't have any players who are really proficient at playing defense or offense. All they have are players who are average or slightly above average. The team has not had a skater who was a top player points wise since Mats Naslund had 110 in the mid 80's. We haven't had a 50 goal man since the late 80's. We haven't had a norris or selke candidate since the 80's. We have had only one player in the running for a calder since 1985. This is a problem that can't be fixed quickly.

Right now we have some maybe's in the stream.

Maybe Price or Halak becomes a Vezina type player

Maybe Chipchura or Plekanec is a Selke type player

Maybe the Kostitsyn's are Calder calibre players

Maybe Maxwell or Grabovski can be better than a point a game centermen.

Maybe Emelin is a top quality defenseman.

All in all a lot of ifs and maybes without any slam dunks anywhere.

[Dirty Harry]

After last night, I came to the realization that when our problems started in last december, a coincidence was our top two forwards, koivu and higgins, have stopped scoring.

Before Higgin's injury, they were averaging at least a point per game and on pace for 80+ point season.

These past two weeks they have both picked up their game, but cannot find the back of the net. They were flying last night but just couldn't bury it.

I dunno what to say really, we know they are both very skilled, and hard working, but are in a slump, it's quite frustrating for us, and Im sure for them too.

We just have to hope they pull out of it, it really sucks, and that missed ppg that our old #1 line was producing before Higgins went down couldve turned a lot of these recent losses into victories.

Now it is really sink or swim time, either they pull out of their funk and regain the team that kicked so much ass in the early season, or we are sunk. The Huet injury is another issue, we have to hope Halak will be able to dominate like he does in the AHL, cuz Aebischer though OK, wont be stealing many games for us with all the softies he lets in.

No trades are gonna save this team, either our guys find the ability they have that can make them top tier players again, or we sink. Its tough to swallow, but thats the reality.

[hab29RETIRED]

The team is caught in hell really. They don't have any players who are really proficient at playing defense or offense. All they have are players who are average or slightly above average. The team has not had a skater who was a top player points wise since Mats Naslund had 110 in the mid 80's. We haven't had a 50 goal man since the late 80's. We haven't had a norris or selke candidate since the 80's. We have had only one player in the running for a calder since 1985. This is a problem that can't be fixed quickly.

Right now we have some maybe's in the stream.

Maybe Price or Halak becomes a Vezina type player

Maybe Chipchura or Plekanec is a Selke type player

Maybe the Kostitsyn's are Calder calibre players

Maybe Maxwell or Grabovski can be better than a point a game centermen.

Maybe Emelin is a top quality defenseman.

All in all a lot of ifs and maybes without any slam dunks anywhere.

for the most part this is a result of Terrible Mgmt - which didn't just start in the Houle era. Savard was responsible for the start of the habs decline by trading away all of his experienced d-man at the same time. In the same year the habs lost Green (retired?), Robinson (traded/allowed to walk), Ludwig (may as well have been traded for a bag of pucks). Then to compound that a few years later he traded a way one of the top 3 defencemen in the league (chelios), for a guy who had been injured and on the decline (savard).

Too many people give Savard too much credit for two cups, but lets face it no patrick Roy, no stanely cups. Simple as that.

The habs also went into offensive hibernation, by never allowing their young players to develop, always insisiting that they learn to play two way hockey before getting their shot. Well, by the time they get through with most of their prospects - which really weren't A calibare prospects to begin with, they go from being prospective 2nd liners to 3rd and 4th liners.

In the past, the habs have had way too many gilchrist's, keane's, macphee's and skrudland's. One or two of those types of players are more then enough.

Even now, its painful having to watch murrey and downey (who have both done absolutely NOTHING all year), playing while Koitysin, Grabovsky are sitting in the minors.

To me it should not be surprising that the habs fall started shortly after they dumped Lapierre in the minors despite the fact that the kid played his heart out and was one of the best players in each of the games he played, instead of dumping downey or Murrey. It seems even when the kids do what they are supposed to, they still don't get a chance.

Look at Pittsburgh, they give Staal a chance, not intending to keep him up, but once he showed he belonged, they stuck with him, even when he started to struggle a bit for a while.

Last night, after calling up Milroy, they should have had him on one of the top two lines, instead they had him wasting away on the 4th line.

Perozhogin, is another guy who given a chance to get the confidence he needs can become a 30 goal scorer, but the habs have him playing a defensive role.

After stressing defence and killing any chance of developing offensive players, i can't believe carbo and his braintrust wonder why their team can't do anything 5 on 5.

[Dirty Harry]

All in all a lot of ifs and maybes without any slam dunks anywhere.

Well we have some solid prospects who're performing in the AHL and that is pretty good. Remember in hockey a lot of the best players in the league are not first round draft choices and were long considered ifs and maybes, some Hart calibre players (Marty St Louis) were never even drafted!! Also plenty of sure things (even #1 draft choices) have disappeared. So dont let that get you down too much. Like I said in my other post, it is agonizing how many players we have that could be dominant players (higgins) but cant seem to find the net this year.

After stressing defence and killing any chance of developing offensive players, i can't believe carbo and his braintrust wonder why their team can't do anything 5 on 5.

Ya I am really starting to wonder about carbo and if he knows what this league is about. The murry/downy/lapierre thing is really mind boggling.

[hab29RETIRED]

Well we have some solid prospects who're performing in the AHL and that is pretty good. Remember in hockey a lot of the best players in the league are not first round draft choices and were long considered ifs and maybes, some Hart calibre players (Marty St Louis) were never even drafted!! Also plenty of sure things (even #1 draft choices) have disappeared. So dont let that get you down too much. Like I said in my other post, it is agonizing how many players we have that could be dominant players (higgins) but cant seem to find the net this year.

Ya I am really starting to wonder about carbo and if he knows what this league is about. The murry/downy/lapierre thing is really mind boggling.

yes, but st. louis was given a chance to be creative, and that is the big difference. If he was in Montreal, the habs's braintrust probably would have told him that he should use his speed to become a premier defensive forward, a la carboneau.

[brobin]

This team can be fixed, but only if they are willing to spend on a top talent, offensive player and take the risk.

They need to make a big trade, or sign a big free agent. They always balk at the price these guys demand. They always hope they can get by with koivu as the top center and some 25 goal scoring winger for him.

Oh, and keep Souray and Markov, the only defense we have had in years that can get points. They won't be cheap....

[Dirty Harry]

This team can be fixed, but only if they are willing to spend on a top talent, offensive player and take the risk.

They need to make a big trade, or sign a big free agent. They always balk at the price these guys demand. They always hope they can get by with koivu as the top center and some 25 goal scoring winger for him.

Oh, and keep Souray and Markov, the only defense we have had in years that can get points. They won't be cheap....

they dont need a trade, they were able to beat top teams and get close to first place earlier this season with their top players performing (koivu, higgins) and top goaltending. Either this team will pull together again (the forwards will find the net), goaltending will survive Huet's surgery with Halak stealing the show and Abby stepping up, or the year will be a write off.

[JoeLassister]

There is no player in the :hlogo: who deserve to have the oppenents have a gameplan against him.

The Bonk's line have to play against Kovalchuk's one, the Crosby line, Lecavalier et St-Louis, Ovechkin, Jagr and Nylander, etc.

The other teams have a gameplan against Souray on the PP. That's it...

[hab29RETIRED]

There is no player in the :hlogo: who deserve to have the oppenents have a gameplan against him.

The Bonk's line have to play against Kovalchuk's one, the Crosby line, Lecavalier et St-Louis, Ovechkin, Jagr and Nylander, etc.

The other teams have a gameplan against Souray on the PP. That's it...

I don't totally agree with you. I think the oppenents do have a game plan against the entire Montreal D. All you have to do is pressure them and they WILL give up the puck. 9 out of 10 times they WILL make a bad pass. 9 out of 10 times they WILL fail at getting the puck out of their zone.

Offensively, I think we have the prospects and young guys to turn this ship around over the next year. Defensively, we are in MAJOR TROUBLE.

it's funny how the coaching staff is so intent on turning their forwards that are offensive prospects into 2 way players, to the point of destroying them as offensive threats. Yet they can't teach their defence to play DEFENSE!!!!!

I'd like to see the habs hire an assistant coach to for the D - I'd love to see the big bird take that role, but I don't know if he even wants to be an assistant coach anymore - especially in montreal.

[hab29RETIRED]

There is no player in the :hlogo: who deserve to have the oppenents have a gameplan against him.

The Bonk's line have to play against Kovalchuk's one, the Crosby line, Lecavalier et St-Louis, Ovechkin, Jagr and Nylander, etc.

The other teams have a gameplan against Souray on the PP. That's it...

I don't totally agree with you. I think the oppenents do have a game plan against the entire Montreal D. All you have to do is pressure them and they WILL give up the puck. 9 out of 10 times they WILL make a bad pass. 9 out of 10 times they WILL fail at getting the puck out of their zone.

Offensively, I think we have the prospects and young guys to turn this ship around over the next year. Defensively, we are in MAJOR TROUBLE.

it's funny how the coaching staff is so intent on turning their forwards that are offensive prospects into 2 way players, to the point of destroying them as offensive threats. Yet they can't teach their defence to play DEFENSE!!!!!

I'd like to see the habs hire an assistant coach to for the D - I'd love to see the big bird take that role, but I don't know if he even wants to be an assistant coach anymore - especially in montreal.

I also don't understand why the habs can't adjust to the other team's keying in on SOuray on the PP. I don't think you can count tonight, bcoz, well it was Columbus, they are even worse then the habs are. However, all year i've been saying that the habs should put a forward who can control the play on the point with Souray (i.e. Kovolev). That gives the habs an aditional threat from the point if the opposition keys in on Souray, also opens things up for a play down low. I think Koviu setting up Ryder tonight illustrates my point. Having Markov setting up Souray just IS NOT WORKING anymore. Teams are countering that play. The coaching staff should have one forward who's job is to keep his butt in front of the goalie, and have two guys as a threat at the point - Souray with his shot, and a guy like kovolev or Koivu who can shoot but also have the skill to make the cross ice pass.