Markov, it's done!

[Fanpuck33]

and Wamsley and others : how do yo quote? it doesn't work for me

Same way I've always quoted, just hit reply under a post.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

A couple of further points:

1. Can we PLEASE stop fantasizing about RFAs? Bob Gainey is a GENTLEMAN. He will not be the one to violate the unwritten norm against pursuing RFAs. (Beyond that, his incessantly-repeated emphasis on youth and building from within precludes risking all those first rounders.)

2. Gainey does have a tendency to overpay, but this should not be overstated.

-Theodore had the credentials, at the time, to command the salary he did. No one - and I mean no one - predicted him to have the melt-down. And in any case Bob fixed the problem by dumping his ass, so no damage done.

-Kovelev was paid the market rate from a team that at the time needed to upgrade and also needed to establish itself as a credible UFA destination (and incidentally, Kovalev WAS a point-per-game player for us the year before last. He got 65 point in, like, 68 games).

-Samsonov was paid a reasonable rate for a player that produced at a high level for eight straight NHL seasons and was (theoretically) coming into his prime at 28.

-Koivu, well, it's debatable. But are you telling me that he wouldn't have got that from another team - ? And the reason why he would is because, like Ryan Smyth (whom all sorts of people on this board want to see signed by Bob for more than he paid Koivu) he brings massive intangibles.

-Ribeiro was clearly overpaid, getting a raise after a crap season.

-Ryder, a tougher call.

Of these, only the Kovalev signing was really high-risk and only the Ribs signing was really weird. The other three players were proven performers with no obvious 'issues.' It's just plain wrong to blame Bob for Theo's bizarre collapse and Samsonov's inexplicable failure to be Samsonov.

[beliveau1]

Like I said earlier, the next 2 years will show us the direction of this franchise. I am not expecting a Free Agent saviour.

I want to see the kids play and figure out if this team will turn the corner with them.

Yes, but even Fisher admitted that they are paying Markov to much. Nobody saw the 5.75M number.

Obviously they paid too much - I never said he didn't. Fact is very damn manger in the NHL is paying far too much for the talent they are buying. In todays My NHL 20 goals, or even just having a 'plus' season has become a license to make millions in this league. Almost every other sport is doing pretty much the same thing - overpaying for talent.

People need to come to terms with the sad but realistic fact that this is now market value for such talent. It's wrong, but it's for real.

Gainey has to pay market value for any talent he wants to sign - few athletes are offering discounts for any reason nowadays.....

[Wamsley01]

Obviously they paid too much - I never said he didn't. Fact is very damn manger in the NHL is paying far too much for the talent they are buying. In todays My NHL 20 goals, or even just having a 'plus' season has become a license to make millions in this league. Almost every other sport is doing pretty much the same thing - overpaying for talent.

People need to come to terms with the sad but realistic fact that this is now market value for such talent. It's wrong, but it's for real.

Gainey has to pay market value for any talent he wants to sign - few athletes are offering discounts for any reason nowadays.....

But this is my point. Isn't that the advantage of developing your own talent and controlling their destiny for 7 years?

People are throwing out certainties of the system and how it works in the NHL, the Cap system is entering it's 3RD YEAR!

Half the GMs still don't know what the hell is going on. I have been following the NBA for over 20 years and the GMs find loophole

and expose them all the time. NHL GMs are still learning the system. There are no absolutes about how things run. The GMs who figure it out first will have a huge upper hand on the rest of the league. Gainey has been smart not to lock up guys to massive deals, and with that I am impressed. My hope is that with familiarity it will continure and my fears will not be recognized.

But that being said, it is not out of the question in other sports to lock up your youth to bigger contract's then they are worth at the time

only to reap the rewards in the middle of the contract when they become Stars. Baseball GMs do it all the time.

John Hart and the Indians made that bold move in the early 90's when they locked up Baerga/Belle/Ramirez/Nagy/Thome to bigger deals than they were worth and kept their core together at a cheap rate for 5 years when they hit their potential. It lead them to 6 consecutive playoff berths, 2 World Series and to within 1 strike of a World Series title. It was progressive thinking.

It is now a regular practice in MLB. The Jays did it with Halladay and Wells as well.

You are always going to get nailed if you let a UFA hit the market. But to claim that it is the way, and you have to live with it is short sighted. Where is the progressive thinking? Anybody care to think outside the box? Just sitting there and letting the system play you will not get you to the level you all want. An annual Stanley Cup contender.

Letting Ryder hit arbitration every summer is allowing the system to play you. Everybody is afraid to play hardball with players nowadays. Players are always replaceable. Lamierello has let numerous guys walk when he felt they passed their market value, yet got Brodeur and Stevens to buy into the Devils plan and accept discounts? Why? THe Patriots achieve the same thing in the NFL every season, All-Pro's accepting less because they want to be part of Bellicheck's vision.

Like I said, I guess my expectations of what I want in a GM differs from the boards. But I do not accept the excuses that people are making. The mistake was NOT in paying Markov 5.75M a season. At that point he had no choice, but Gainey placed himself in a position where not 1 but his THREE best defensemen were going to enter this summer as UFAs. I am to believe that this was unavoidable? Bad luck on Gainey's part?

On top of that he refuses to negotiate during the season. Gainey put himself in that position, not Markov, not Souray.

I know it is impossible to not allow all your players to hit the UFA market, but their is value to be obtained between their entry level and their first UFA period. With Montreal's abundance of youth, it is really important to get that under control.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Wamsley01

[beliveau1]

But this is my point. Isn't that the advantage of developing your own talent and controlling their destiny for 7 years?

People are throwing out certainties of the system and how it works in the NHL, the Cap system is entering it's 3RD YEAR!

Half the GMs still don't know what the hell is going on. I have been following the NBA for over 20 years and the GMs find loophole

and expose them all the time. NHL GMs are still learning the system. There are no absolutes about how things run. The GMs who figure it out first will have a huge upper hand on the rest of the league. Gainey has been smart not to lock up guys to massive deals, and with that I am impressed. My hope is that with familiarity it will continure and my fears will not be recognized.

But that being said, it is not out of the question in other sports to lock up your youth to bigger contract's then they are worth at the time

only to reap the rewards in the middle of the contract when they become Stars. Baseball GMs do it all the time.

John Hart and the Indians made that bold move in the early 90's when they locked up Baerga/Belle/Ramirez/Nagy/Thome to bigger deals than they were worth and kept their core together at a cheap rate for 5 years when they hit their potential. It lead them to 6 consecutive playoff berths, 2 World Series and to within 1 strike of a World Series title. It was progressive thinking.

It is now a regular practice in MLB. The Jays did it with Halladay and Wells as well.

You are always going to get nailed if you let a UFA hit the market. But to claim that it is the way, and you have to live with it is short sighted. Where is the progressive thinking? Anybody care to think outside the box? Just sitting there and letting the system play you will not get you to the level you all want. An annual Stanley Cup contender.

Letting Ryder hit arbitration every summer is allowing the system to play you. Everybody is afraid to play hardball with players nowadays. Players are always replaceable. Lamierello has let numerous guys walk when he felt they passed their market value, yet got Brodeur and Stevens to buy into the Devils plan and accept discounts? Why? THe Patriots achieve the same thing in the NFL every season, All-Pro's accepting less because they want to be part of Bellicheck's vision.

Like I said, I guess my expectations of what I want in a GM differs from the boards. But I do not accept the excuses that people are making. The mistake was NOT in paying Markov 5.75M a season. At that point he had no choice, but Gainey placed himself in a position where not 1 but his THREE best defensemen were going to enter this summer as UFAs. I am to believe that this was unavoidable? Bad luck on Gainey's part?

On top of that he refuses to negotiate during the season. Gainey put himself in that position, not Markov, not Souray.

I know it is impossible to not allow all your players to hit the UFA market, but their is value to be obtained between their entry level and their first UFA period. With Montreal's abundance of youth, it is really important to get that under control.

I agree with you somewhat - in theory that is what you want. Unfortunately that seems to be no longer the case as players are growing wise to the options they have. The contracts you mention happened 1o years ago or more so that is in a sense irrelevant given the new manner in which contracts are approached. Could Gainey have avoided this situation? Possibly, but agents and players are extracting as much leverage as they can. Can't blame them for doing it really. In a perfect world..... (oh yeah, the Habs would be hoisting the Cup every year, right)

As for excuses - I don't think that certain realities are excuses....

[The-Habby2919]

I just had a thought... with the cap going up about 3-4 million every year, in 2 years or even next year Markovs pay wont look that bad against us.

CH

[Wamsley01]

I agree with you somewhat - in theory that is what you want. Unfortunately that seems to be no longer the case as players are growing wise to the options they have. The contracts you mention happened 1o years ago or more so that is in a sense irrelevant given the new manner in which contracts are approached. Could Gainey have avoided this situation? Possibly, but agents and players are extracting as much leverage as they can. Can't blame them for doing it really. In a perfect world..... (oh yeah, the Habs would be hoisting the Cup every year, right)

As for excuses - I don't think that certain realities are excuses....

It was 10 years ago. But all I am establishing is that it is progressive thinking. It is now a regular tactic that GMs use in baseball.

There are things to be exploited in the new CBA and I just hate hearing that is not the way it works. There is always somebody blazing the trail. How many people laughed at Billy Beane on the A's before they began to copy him in droves. Before that the thinking was...we can't compete with that payroll. It was a built in excuse that gave GMs an excuse to lose, which many of them used to cover up their poor decisions.

The CBA is built to keep salaries down, but why is it that agents figure out a way to work it for them when it is set up for the teams and GM to excel?

Their are certain realities that are unavoidable. Players will set themselves up for their UFA years. But Bettman has now put in certain measures to avoid prolonged hold outs to avoid Theodore/Iginla threats of a holdout in RFA years like they tried 4-5 years ago.Yet GMs are still bowing down to players.

Somebody will figure this CBA out in the next couple of years and certain realities that everybody believes right now will no longer be followed. If history has taught us anything it is that somebody will. I am hoping he will be employed by Les Glorieux.

And yes in a perfect world the Habs would hold the Cup high every year. I guess the 70s was close to a perfect world

[Fanpuck33]

I just had a thought... with the cap going up about 3-4 million every year, in 2 years or even next year Markovs pay wont look that bad against us.

CH

That's assuming the league continues to have increased revenues each year.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Speaking of this thread, I figured it was going to go on and on with arguments, but wait. This just in: It seems we might be about to jump over to the Souray thread and really have our thread war.

[Wamsley01]

Speaking of this thread, I figured it was going to go on and on with arguments, but wait. This just in: It seems we might be about to jump over to the Souray thread and really have our thread war.

Alright It's been a slow couple of months!

[InsaneHABSfan]

Individually, yes, it is unlikely any will be better than Dion. But what about overall depth? Is it better to have Phaneuf and 3 waiver bums/crappy UFAs/prospects who aren't really NHL caliber of to have four first round talent players. It would be like trading Komi, Higs, Kosty, and Chips for a single player. That takes away 3 guys who will be very important to the team and another who still has great potential as a 3rd line center with leadership.

The above post has holes that make it questionable. But I do understand and agree to your point IF you were correct about the talent level. 4 picks is lots to give up.

HOWEVER, all those guys are Habs already. Plus Montreal would not be able to draft guys of that talent as they are going to be finishing BETTER every year. (My opinion)

Also (From Habsworld information):

Komisarek was drafted 7th

Higgins 14th

Kots 10th

Chipchura 18th.

Would of only had a shot at Chipchura if these guys were rated correctly and drafted at those spots by other teams. If not valued by other organizations Habs might have got them in the Second round??? Hindsight, forsight it is all mostly guesswork. I would still take that chance....Must be the AVS fan in me!