Harding_27 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Kovy and scoring- look, it's all a matter how how Kovy's used. Jagr was a scoring champ in Pitts, and then a scoring leader in NY but he was an average nobody with Washington. What changed? Did he lose his scoring touch, skill or ability with the Caps- of course not. In Pittsburgh and NY, the team is built around Jagr- Sather traded for Czech limemates just so Jagr would be comfortable. The job of those linemates is to set him up to score. He plays virtually the entire PP. He is the trigger man on 5 on 3. He is on the ice in empty net situations (In the Burgh, Jagr probably scored 20-30 point a year on empty net situations)- The Canadiens don't build their team around Kovy- they don't even build a line around Kovalev Basically, Kovy could easily be among the scoring leaders in NHL...anyone can see that he has the skill BUT, if you're not first line (which Kovy isn't); if you're going play 2nd power unit (which Kovy does) , if you're set up man for Souray on 5 on 3 (which Kovy is), if you sit the bench in empty net situations (where Kovy sits); if you're going to roll four lines and play Kovy 16-18 minutes a game (which is going to happen)- then it's hard to put up impressive numbers. It's nuts!!! People think if Kovy just hustled a little more, or played hard ALL the time, or whatever the criticism is- he could put up more many more points. Hardly! When you have Kovy's world class skill, his point total is only limited by his opportunities- of which- given the Habs style- Kovy has little opportunity to be a league leading scorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 You raise a valid point: Kovy could obviously benefit from playing with players that complement his style of play. And I believe this was why Samsonov was brought in last year. Nevertheless, with the exception of perhaps a few elite (e.g., Crosby) none merit a team built around them. This is the Montreal Canadiens, not the Alexei Kovalevs. Granted, I hope Kovy does get more opportunities to prove himself this year, but he will have to work hard and hustle to get those opportunities. The fact that he's talented will not suffice. Welcome to the board, Harding 27. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Kovy and scoring- look, it's all a matter how how Kovy's used. Jagr was a scoring champ in Pitts, and then a scoring leader in NY but he was an average nobody with Washington. What changed? Did he lose his scoring touch, skill or ability with the Caps- of course not. In Pittsburgh and NY, the team is built around Jagr- Sather traded for Czech limemates just so Jagr would be comfortable. The job of those linemates is to set him up to score. He plays virtually the entire PP. He is the trigger man on 5 on 3. He is on the ice in empty net situations (In the Burgh, Jagr probably scored 20-30 point a year on empty net situations)- The Canadiens don't build their team around Kovy- they don't even build a line around Kovalev Basically, Kovy could easily be among the scoring leaders in NHL...anyone can see that he has the skill BUT, if you're not first line (which Kovy isn't); if you're going play 2nd power unit (which Kovy does) , if you're set up man for Souray on 5 on 3 (which Kovy is), if you sit the bench in empty net situations (where Kovy sits); if you're going to roll four lines and play Kovy 16-18 minutes a game (which is going to happen)- then it's hard to put up impressive numbers. It's nuts!!! People think if Kovy just hustled a little more, or played hard ALL the time, or whatever the criticism is- he could put up more many more points. Hardly! When you have Kovy's world class skill, his point total is only limited by his opportunities- of which- given the Habs style- Kovy has little opportunity to be a league leading scorer. the canadiens shouldn't build their team on a 34(?) years old 60 points scorer. what has he done lately to deserve much attention ?? given, he's our most talented foward. that doesn't mean he's our best. he doens't want to be the best, he only wants to looked and treated like the best. great players arent put down by less talented linemates, they make them better...just look at lemieux with rob brown and wendell young. or prucha with jarg, or bochenski with spezza. when you say that montreal didn build a line around kovy, why the hell do you think that samsonov was here for ?? did it work?? hell no. you put two sellfish players on the same line, of course it wont work. his only excuse is that his centerman was starstruck and unconfortable with AK, but who had the better year ?? my say is that if we put kovy with thornton and cheechoo, he'll still underacheive and people will say that joe and john stole his thunder. I think that kovalev can be really helpfull on the powerplay but on 5 on 5, hes done. he doens,t have that extra gear any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 It is a vaild point Carbonneau does not play his best players enough minutes. Yes Kovalev led Canadiens forwards in ice time but was not even in the top 70 in the league. Those 2-3 extra minutes per game make a big difference for offensive players they need to play 1/3rd of the game to get into the game and produce on a regular basis. But Kovalev sucked last year he knows it he will be better next year I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan24 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 It is a vaild point Carbonneau does not play his best players enough minutes. Yes Kovalev led Canadiens forwards in ice time but was not even in the top 70 in the league. Those 2-3 extra minutes per game make a big difference for offensive players they need to play 1/3rd of the game to get into the game and produce on a regular basis. But Kovalev sucked last year he knows it he will be better next year I hope. I think Carbo will learn with time that he needs to play his top players more. All season I was frustrated and I know you were as well about the top players not getting enough time. I have faith he will learn and up the mins of the big guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRvInA Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 But give him a LINE worthy of one of the most talented players in the NHL for F%!% Sake! give him 2 top linemates and then bleed him to death if he doesnt produce!... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I dunno, Maybe have Kovalev-Koivu-Latendresse and Higgins-Plekanec-Kostitsyn for line 2 and go from there. I know Ryder is missing but I think he's on the way out. Mind you, this will be the 3rd offseason I believed that and he never was moved. Three times as charm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy Ryder Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 One thing that would ignite him would be to use Kovalev at the point in Power Play. He was great with Pittsburg at the point, why did the coaches never gave him a chance ?? Souray was more effective, indeed. Now Souray is likely gone elsewhere for 6 million or so. Now if we lose Souray who is our better man to play the right up side of the power play??I mean he has a good chemistry with Markov, he has a great shot. And for pick up rebounds Kovalev was useless in power play at the wing, we would be better have somebody who gets his nose in traffic pick up rebounds instead of staying along the boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Kovalev has never had a team built around him. And you better believe Washington built their team for him, they even went out and got Lang (sound familiar) with a huge contract to get Jagr going. Jagr was mailing it in for the Capitals and lost that franchise a lot of money. Then he got in tax problems, too. He himself admitted that his passion for hockey came back to him during the lockout playing in Russia. He admitted he had little passion in Washington. Mario even noticed that something was lacking with Jagr in the last year in Pittsburgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 We've tried building a line for him. Gainey brought in Samsonov specifically to play with Kovalev. That will not work. He struggled in NYR playing with all the talent in the world on his team. I think he has enough talent for all three players on his line, but he is missing something in Montreal. Maybe you're right and it's opportunities. But you are right he should atleast get top PP minutes as that's where he works best, nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I dunno, Maybe have Kovalev-Koivu-Latendresse and Higgins-Plekanec-Kostitsyn for line 2 and go from there. I know Ryder is missing but I think he's on the way out. Mind you, this will be the 3rd offseason I believed that and he never was moved. Three times as charm? I am so glad you are not our general manager. You can't wait to see the guy who has led us in goal scoring the last 2 seasons go away, but you all want Kovalev, who has coasted here since he signed the big contract, to get coddled, surrounded by superstars, so he can produce. What is wrong with you people? Where was Kovy that last game against Toronto, with the playoffs on the line? Did you hear Ryder griping and complaining about his linemates, ice time, etc? I really believe that if Ryder was french canadien, everyone would love him. A reliable 30 goal man who comes at a bargain, thats what Ryder is. Nothing more. Is that really so bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortHanded Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 One thing that would ignite him would be to use Kovalev at the point in Power Play. He was great with Pittsburg at the point, why did the coaches never gave him a chance ?? Souray was more effective, indeed. Now Souray is likely gone elsewhere for 6 million or so. Now if we lose Souray who is our better man to play the right up side of the power play??I mean he has a good chemistry with Markov, he has a great shot. And for pick up rebounds Kovalev was useless in power play at the wing, we would be better have somebody who gets his nose in traffic pick up rebounds instead of staying along the boards. all very true. I hope that he gets some first unit PP time next year. he's good on the point, and Souray's as good as gone, so it could work for both the team and for Kovy... I also agree that having him be the rebound guy is pointless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Interesting to read a thread that isn't just more Kovy-bashing or Kovy-worship but actually gives some analysis. Nice job. Carbonneau did one thing right last season, and that was get the most out of every young player except Perezhogin. But his misuse/abuse of veterans really was appalling - from inexcusably benching Rivet to completely jerking Samsonov around. As this thread has observed, Kovalev was also on the receiving end of this incompetence, never getting extended time with the team's top centreman, not getting the minutes, not being tried on the point during PP, etc., etc.. Carbo just didn't seem interested in putting vets in a position to succeed (perhaps because he felt that they shouldn't need that sort of hand-holding - reasonable, but ya gotta do what works, for God's sake). However, 'building a team around' Kovalev is a huge stretch. He is a complementary player, not a franchise player. In any case, people forget that Kovalev's first season with us was a success (65 points in 69 games, I think, and tons of big goals). He is 1 for 2, season-wise, and has shown something of a pattern of alternating good and bad years. As much as he deserves bashing for last year's follies, it would be short-sighted to dismiss him just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I am so glad you are not our general manager. You can't wait to see the guy who has led us in goal scoring the last 2 seasons go away, but you all want Kovalev, who has coasted here since he signed the big contract, to get coddled, surrounded by superstars, so he can produce. What is wrong with you people? Where was Kovy that last game against Toronto, with the playoffs on the line? Did you hear Ryder griping and complaining about his linemates, ice time, etc? I really believe that if Ryder was french canadien, everyone would love him. A reliable 30 goal man who comes at a bargain, thats what Ryder is. Nothing more. Is that really so bad? My thoughts exactly. Everyone wants to toss away who helped the habs do what they did last year. Toss Souray and Ryder...the top scorers on the team. Is it peoples idea that we can go the Sens/Pens route...suck for 10 years, stockpile draft picks then win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 My thoughts exactly. Everyone wants to toss away who helped the habs do what they did last year. Toss Souray and Ryder...the top scorers on the team. Is it peoples idea that we can go the Sens/Pens route...suck for 10 years, stockpile draft picks then win? I have to agree to some extent - it really boggles the mind to see so many people on these boards who completely detest the best offensive players on the team: Souray, Ryder and now Koivu. Anyhow, building a team around a declining player in his late 30's is hardly a recipe for success, unless he's a superstar. Jagr is, Kovalev isn't. They're not on the same level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneHABSfan Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) Anyhow, building a team around a declining player in his late 30's is hardly a recipe for success, unless he's a superstar. Jagr is, Kovalev isn't. They're not on the same level. I look at this a little different. Gainey is building a team and adding a couple of players to add respectability to the team. Would all the good paying fans actually watch a team that just sucked? It is now up to Kovalev to actually care about his contract and try his best on any line that he fits in on. Kovalev is one of the higher paid players so I think it is time for him to stop the Whine and start to play hockey. Even if he does not score, his abilities make opportunities for other players as he is still offensively gifted. I just hope he has the "Whole World is Against Me" mentality out of his system. Edited June 21, 2007 by InsaneAVSfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRvInA Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 BUILD A LINE for him... give him a freakin LINE no one is saying build a team around him... and if that dont fit in the plans trade him away... cause not all players are the same... Kovy tried playing without a line for two seasons and knows his limitations so he asked BG if this was gonna continue otherwise he was being misused! nothing unfair in that statement? each to his own capabilities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 BUILD A LINE for him... give him a freakin LINE no one is saying build a team around him... and if that dont fit in the plans trade him away... cause not all players are the same... Kovy tried playing without a line for two seasons and knows his limitations so he asked BG if this was gonna continue otherwise he was being misused! nothing unfair in that statement? each to his own capabilities what has he done to deserve that ?? shouldn't we build a real line for koivu at first ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRvInA Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 what has he done to deserve that ?? shouldn't we build a real line for koivu at first ?? build the team around KOivu! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) it would be short-sighted to dismiss him just yet. I agree. While the cap hit is hard, it's still not easy to attract FA's to Montreal. The team doesn't need vets leaving when there is no good trade compensation that can help your team right away. He has the potential to rebound and to help the young players along. Kovalev was not handled well by Carbonneau. That much is clear. As much as Kovalev must answer many fans questions, so must the coach on this and Sammy and 5 on 5 and... Out goes Sammy and here comes Salmey Edited June 22, 2007 by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortHanded Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 what has he done to deserve that ?? shouldn't we build a real line for koivu at first ?? I wouldn't mind Kovy and Koivu on the same line themselves! I have NO idea why it wasn't tried last year when it was previously successful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 I wouldn't mind Kovy and Koivu on the same line themselves! I have NO idea why it wasn't tried last year when it was previously successful It was they scored against the Pens late in a game that is the only time I remember them getting any shifts together as well as late in tampa game and OT against Buffalo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 It was they scored against the Pens late in a game that is the only time I remember them getting any shifts together as well as late in tampa game and OT against Buffalo. They do play the powerplay together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 They do play the powerplay together. Yeah well the Habs would get more power plays and score more goals if they played together all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l<OV4L3V Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 GO with it...Kovalev and Koivu produce when they are put together...if not...at least give them First unit PP time together! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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