Game Thread | Florida vs. Montreal | 10/16/07

[Habitforming]

Why were Brisebois, Chipchura, and Dandenault on the ice with the game on the line?

That was the first question I thought of when they made the last changes.

yes everyone played a good game but you don't just kep rolling lines when you are down 2 men with a one goal game....in the last 2 minutes!

Very frustrating, but the habs should have won 5 - 1 with a small break.

[Wamsley01]

I don't disagree that over the past 4 years we've watched this team improve and become loaded with future potential. The farm system is full, the team is performing with young players still reaching for their talent ceilings, etc. However, let's keep in mind they did not make the playoffs last year and that's NOT good enough. I'm not advocating they blow it up and pull a Leafs move trading youth for old vets...far from it...just pointing out that last season was simply not good enough for what should be the standard for any organization. Some fans just don't want to admit that staying the course is the right prescription.

I completely disagree that all you lost a few years ago was "a prospect. That's it"...as compared to today where you hamstring your team for years. That was partially true for SOME of the wealthier clubs who were free spenders...about 4-5 clubs out of 30 could lay some claim to that philosophy...BUT look where that attitude got the Leafs and Rangers over the past decade...nowhere. Prospects have ALWAYS(okay, the past 25 years) been the lifeblood of building a dynasty that lasts for more then 2 years.

Having said that why can't an organization 12-18 prospects deep with guys who have legit shots as NHL regulars, AND has 3-4 million in cap space, AND has a wealth of goalies and depth d-men make a deal to improve both short and long term?

Remember these young players won't be taking any significant cap space for 3-4 years...so why would trading for a good, expensive veteran with 2-3 years left on a deal be a bad thing? I'm not talking about dealing for the sake of it...but if the shoe fits then make the deal. Their contract would be up right when our young players would be getting bigger pay increases so it would work out perfectly. The Habs could trade 3-4 prospects and absorb the loss without hurting the team short or long term...they have that many. And, of course, you have to trust the guys who drafted, and are developing them, to choose the right ones to look at including in any deal.

The habs are in a perfect position right now to make a big deal. They have the prospects, cap space and youthful core that the right player could alter the course of this team immediately. As much as last night was a depressing reminder of the last 10 years, the future is bright for this organization.

In the salary cap era the margin for error is limited. So if you are going to trade prospects and fill up cap space that player has to be the right fit. The Habs can fit a 7M a year player if they deal 1 of Ryder/Huet, prospects and picks because Higgins/Komisarek/Price/Latendresse/Kostitsyn/Plekanec/Chipchura/Koivu/Kovalev are all locked in for the next 2-3 years. Like Zowpeb said, you have to trust Gainey and Timmins to assess who will fit your system and who will not and deal those who do not.

You cannot make deals with the fear that Pacioretty will become John Leclair because that will render anybody a eunuch. Sometimes it bites you in the ass, sometimes the player is Josef Balej for Kovalev. You do not win Cups without risk. If you overstock the farm with talent you lessen the risk.

Anybody who is in a Fantasy league understands how much you hate the guy who calls you up and offers you Wayne Primeau for Joe Thornton. A deal that would never get made in real life....ummm, bad example. My point is, you generally have to give up something to get something.

I trust that Timmins knows who he can and can't deal.

[OneSharpMarble]

Whoever thinks that this team is not performing, or hasn't shown signs of major fundamental improvement as compared to the past decade is sniffing glue.

Failing with style is still failing.

Anybody who is in a Fantasy league understands how much you hate the guy who calls you up and offers you Wayne Primeau for Joe Thornton. A deal that would never get made in real life....ummm, bad example. My point is, you generally have to give up something to get something.

I trust that Timmins knows who he can and can't deal.

Generally yes, but not all the time.

I am glad to finally see this board shifting over to my point of view

[Wamsley01]

Failing with style is still failing.

Generally yes, but not all the time.

I am glad to finally see this board shifting over to my point of view

I don't share your point of view. You build through the farm and when the time is right

you take your shot. They are getting closer to taking that shot. Hence the trade talk.

Making a deal 3 years ago would have been a Leaf move. Eating up cap to stay mediocre.

Not making a deal to make the leap to become a contender.

[OneSharpMarble]

I don't share your point of view. You build through the farm and when the time is right

you take your shot. They are getting closer to taking that shot. Hence the trade talk.

Making a deal 3 years ago would have been a Leaf move. Eating up cap to stay mediocre.

Not making a deal to make the leap to become a contender.

I didn't say you shouldn't build through the farm, but you don't rely on the farm to give you your entire team. We have needed a legit franchise player since probably 2000 and should have acquired one. Had we got one then maybe we would have attracted other free agents since and not be in this position right now.

Name some other teams that have no real franchise player.....Maybe the Islanders or Toronto? Sometimes you have to gamble to stay competetive and reap rewards, if you stay still you become stagnant.

[sbhatt]

Why were Brisebois, Chipchura, and Dandenault on the ice with the game on the line?

I have no problem with Dandenault being there, but Chipchura...an unproven rookie? That was certainly an odd choice, and the reason I commented on the issue immediately after the game in this thread. I would have liked to see Plekanec out there in that situation.

[Wamsley01]

I didn't say you shouldn't build through the farm, but you don't rely on the farm to give you your entire team. We have needed a legit franchise player since probably 2000 and should have acquired one. Had we got one then maybe we would have attracted other free agents since and not be in this position right now.

Name some other teams that have no real franchise player.....Maybe the Islanders or Toronto? Sometimes you have to gamble to stay competetive and reap rewards, if you stay still you become stagnant.

Who ever said you rely on your farm to build your entire team? It surely was not me

They had a franchise player who won the league MVP in 2002. Unfortunately he fell apart.

Who the hell were they going to trade in 2001 to acquire a franchise talent? Koivu? Linden? Brisebois? Hackett? Savage? And even if they had one, who the hell was he going to play with? This franchise talent would have turned a 65 point team into a 75 point team? This team was nowhere close from 2000-2004. Unless the franchise talent was Crosby/Lemieux or Gretzky it would have changed nothing. They had no PROSPECTS to deal because they only had a couple that were worth a damn.

I don't know if you recall but the Habs were shedding salary in the late 90s/early 2000s because of a 60 cent dollar.

Add to the fact that the GM was a bumbling fool, they were not going to contend for shit. They dealt away Recchi and Damphousse for nothing because they could not pay them and were going to lose them to Free Agency. They would have no impact in Free Agency because they would not spend more than $5M per season on a player.

You do not win the Cup without a strong farm system. Carolina/Tampa/NJ/Anaheim/Colorado/Dallas/Detroit all had major Stars. But they all had homegrown talent that were the core and allowed them to acquire those stars.

The Habs are doing the right thing. If the right deal does not come along. Then you do not make one. But the foundation for future success has been laid by Timmins and Gainey. They are building from the Goalie out and sooner or later they will acquire a front line talent, be it Free Agency or through trade.

I have no criticism for this organization. I expect them to make the right moves when the time is right.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Wamsley01

[BTH]

The bad news is that we came out one point short of what we deserved. The good news is that if we play like that every game we are going to win the Stanley Cup. Now, of course, there is no way we play like that every game - but that was some incredible hockey. The result is frustrating but the game itself should make us feel happier than anything else has this season.

Kovalev to Calgary for Tanguay.

That's the buzz in Montreal now. The mediatic pressure's on for Gainey to make a move already. That's what, 5 games into an 82 games season?

Honestly, I wouldn't even do that and I'm 90% sure Gainey wouldn't either. I wouldn't mind getting Tanguay in a deal involving other players though.

[OneSharpMarble]

Honestly, I wouldn't even do that and I'm 90% sure Gainey wouldn't either. I wouldn't mind getting Tanguay in a deal involving other players though.

Why?!?! Tanguay got 81 points last year, is 27 years old and is a great playmaker. Kovalev is like 34 years old, got 47 points last year and shows up when it suits him. This baffles me why calgary would even consider it.

[BTH]

Why?!?! Tanguay got 81 points last year, is 27 years old and is a great playmaker. Kovalev is like 34 years old, got 47 points last year and shows up when it suits him. This baffles me why calgary would even consider it.

I don't think either team would do it. Especially since Calgary seems like the least likely destination for Kovalev considering their head staff and team identity (or atleast former team identity) though Tanguay has a pretty similar reputation. I just think Kovalev is a very valuable piece of this hockey team and I think he is a leader and that he will have a point-a-game season this year. I don't get to see Tanguay play much but I don't think he can do much more than put up points. Anyways, Gainey doesn't like to make trades unless there is an absolute need to do something and so far Kovalev's attendance is 5 for 5 this season.

I just have a lot of confidence and respect for the guy and everything Gainey's done tells me that he's in the same boat as me. They gave him the A this year - that is a good sign that he is not about to be traded.

[Guest Syn]

This game was ridiculously boring... D: I at least got a laugh out of how the game ended... one which me and my brother predicted would happen.

[Wamsley01]

This game was ridiculously boring... D: I at least got a laugh out of how the game ended... one which me and my brother predicted would happen.

I don't think you were the only one. That game had bad news written all over it after 2 periods.

[habs rule]

Who ever said you rely on your farm to build your entire team? It surely was not me

They had a franchise player who won the league MVP in 2002. Unfortunately he fell apart.

Who the hell were they going to trade in 2001 to acquire a franchise talent? Koivu? Linden? Brisebois? Hackett? Savage? And even if they had one, who the hell was he going to play with? This franchise talent would have turned a 65 point team into a 75 point team? This team was nowhere close from 2000-2004. Unless the franchise talent was Crosby/Lemieux or Gretzky it would have changed nothing. They had no PROSPECTS to deal because they only had a couple that were worth a damn.

I don't know if you recall but the Habs were shedding salary in the late 90s/early 2000s because of a 60 cent dollar.

Add to the fact that the GM was a bumbling fool, they were not going to contend for shit. They dealt away Recchi and Damphousse for nothing because they could not pay them and were going to lose them to Free Agency. They would have no impact in Free Agency because they would not spend more than $5M per season on a player.

You do not win the Cup without a strong farm system. Carolina/Tampa/NJ/Anaheim/Colorado/Dallas/Detroit all had major Stars. But they all had homegrown talent that were the core and allowed them to acquire those stars.

The Habs are doing the right thing. If the right deal does not come along. Then you do not make one. But the foundation for future success has been laid by Timmins and Gainey. They are building from the Goalie out and sooner or later they will acquire a front line talent, be it Free Agency or through trade.

I have no criticism for this organization. I expect them to make the right moves when the time is right.

very well put. OSM you should come over to the light side all that darkness has you confused

[Sir_Boagalott]

That game had bad news written all over it after 2 periods.

Or do you mean Kostopoluos's fight?

I forgot aboot 4 other beefs I had with this game.

I was finally noticing Kosto, he was standing out and doing good things and I was starting to like him. When Kosto hit Allen I said "Right Arm, bout bloody time!!" Then I saw the replay. I saw Allen's hit, but I didnt catch who he hit, so when I saw Kosto hit Allen I had the false impression he was sticking up for his teammate. Unfortunately this wasnt the case cuz Allen hit Kosto so he was just sticking up for himself. Still not a bad thing, but he could have got a "retaliation" penalty on his hit. A penalty at that point would be worth it to stick up for teammates, if not its bad selfish penalty to get personal revenge. Still not a huge deal but still 3rd and 4th line guys cant be out there getting Domiesque penalties.

After Kosto's hit, Carbo went over to him and said something. Did anyone catch what he said? Was it go start a fight?

I seriously hope to God that Carbo didnt tell Kosto to go start a fight. Although Florida didnt actually score until the game was almost over I'd say that the fight was the turning point in the game.

Fights basically accomplish 1 thing: change momentum. Fighting switches the games momentum, from 1 team to the other, like a big wake up call to get your team into the game. See the problem? Habs were already awake!! The game was completely lopsided in Habs favor up until then. After the fight it was no longer a lopsided affair. Florida didnt dominate but they were awake after the fight. It was a shitty fight, which didnt help but the timing was horrible time to just "fight".. If your down 3-1 in the 2nd by all means start a fight to try to get the team going. In that case even if you loose the fight it still gets teammates adrenalin up. If you actually win the fight your team will be into the game more, and if you kick the guys ass your teammates will be roaring like a bunch of bachelors at a stag party. Fighting can be risky especially when your doing it just for the sake of fighting. Sticking up for yourself/teammate is different because it something that should be done if needed no matter what the score is but the outcome of any fight can switch momentum in a game. There are times when its smart to start a fight, but Kosto's tonight wasnt such an occasion.

Another thing I couldnt believe aboot Kosto was that he initiated the fight is that they danced around for a prolonged time before they started and he wouldnt take his helmet off. Thats low really, when buddy took his off Kosto should have to. It was almost like "go ahead and break your knuckles on my helmet then you cant punch me anymore and I can win this fight. The entire fight just seemed desperate, it reminded me of Gill off the Simpsons.

As soon as Florida pulled their goalie I was on the edge of my seat because I thought we had won it right there. No clue why Florida did that, I thought he was smarter than that. I guess it didnt matter though because apparently none of the Habs were smart enough to figure the error out.

i.e. your on the PK, they have their goalie out = as soon as you touch the puck riffle it as hard as you can at their net!!! Nothing bad will come from it. You will either score or they will have to go a long way to get the puck back. Both outcomes are good. Instead though they stuck with the regular shoot the puck up the boards shit. The Habs had several chances at clearing the puck but werent successful and when a team cant clear the puck for an extended time they usually end up getting scored on.

Ironically I bet this is what Kovalev was trying to say with "get organized". It definitely didnt seem like Habs were aware of the just dump it at the net strategy. Nobody had a great chance at the net, but anywhere up the middle would have been better than up the side of the boards.