Cataclaw Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 The problem is the arguments in favor of Koivu's removal aren't necessary rational, themselves being clouded by emotion (such is the reality of being a Habs fan). If an objective case could be made for Koivu's removal, i'd listen, but at the moment, there isn't much of a case. If Koivu was having a better season, none of this crap would be surfacing. Guys need to see the big picture and not keep their vision narrow to a 10-game window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 The problem is the arguments in favor of Koivu's removal aren't necessary rational, themselves being clouded by emotion (such is the reality of being a Habs fan). If an objective case could be made for Koivu's removal, i'd listen, but at the moment, there isn't much of a case. If Koivu was having a better season, none of this crap would be surfacing. Guys need to see the big picture and not keep their vision narrow to a 10-game window. The bottom line is that there are a few (10) games a year that Saku doesn't play well. And when Saku doesn't play well, the Habs lose...End of story. So does trading him make everything better? In my opinion, No it does not. What makes everything better is depth in the top 2 lines. I am really fricken happy to say, for the first time in years, that a good right winger on the first line could change everything. Last year, when Higgins ,Ryder, and Koivu were on their "A" game, people were so happy that we finally had a true first line. Then Higgins was hurt. Lats stepped up and played well, but wasn't really a first liner. Ryder was more of a true goal scorer than Higgins. Higgins is a digger. Ryder is playing like a bum, so Koivu's bad games look that much worse when he has no support. I think Koivu is a great 4.5 mill guy, and a trade will not bring anything better. That said, everything is for sale for the right price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 . . .he'll have to continue playing well before he's entirely off the hook in my eyes. ouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromage Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 trading Smyth didn't really help Edmonton, why would it help the Canadiens to trade Koivu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 trading Smyth didn't really help Edmonton, why would it help the Canadiens to trade Koivu? The Oilers don't seem any worse this year than they did last year when they had Smyth. It's all about how you build your team. I honestly didn't think Koivu was going to get traded mid-season. If any time, he'll be dealt at the deadline, if we fall out of the playoff race. The question is can we win a Cup with Saku making $4.75m? Once 2009 hits, BTW, all bets are off on who stays and who goes. Here's a list of contracts that expire at the end of 2008-09: Koivu, Kovalev, Higgins, Komisarek, Plekanec, Latnedresse, Chipchura, Bouillon, Dandenault, Begin, and Kostopolous. People have to realize the potential money some of these players might cost to retain, particularily the 5 younger players. And the fact that Price's contract will have to be extended the next season. Right now based on current trends, it is entirely possible that Koivu's contract (for a re-signing) will be cheaper than all 3 of Higgins, Komisarek, and Plekanec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 The problem is the arguments in favor of Koivu's removal aren't necessary rational, themselves being clouded by emotion (such is the reality of being a Habs fan). If an objective case could be made for Koivu's removal, i'd listen, but at the moment, there isn't much of a case. If Koivu was having a better season, none of this crap would be surfacing. Guys need to see the big picture and not keep their vision narrow to a 10-game window. Maybe some people have. But on the reverse, a lot dismiss it based on emotion alone. He is not untouchable. If judgements were based on the results on the ice alone he would be viewed differently. My goal for this team is the Cup, not the Cup with Koivu holding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted December 17, 2007 Author Share Posted December 17, 2007 (edited) Some people are just too emotional about this. I don'T think nobody has been saying that the habs should absolutely trade saku. What we are saying is that if an interesting offer comes along...Bob should seriously consider it. We do not deserve a player and man like him. That line needs a winger, and Sergei might just be the guy. So let's be a little more patient. There's no other guy in the world that deserve more than Koivu to bring the Cup home. Ever heard the expression: "Not ONE player is bigger than the team!" As much as I like Saku, if we can get a good player for hiim...it might be worth looking into it! Edited December 17, 2007 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Why is the mere suggestion of trading Koivu deemed hate? If you want to make smart decisions you seperate emotion from your decision making. It does not matter if Koivu saves puppies, builds orphanages and turns water into wine. You make trades that make your team better. If you can deal him for better players than you do it. No hate. Just business. Using your logic the Leafs would never have traded Wendel Clark. The heart and soul of that team through the 80s and early 90s. The guy was loved by the fans. He played his ass off every shift, played hurt, was great in the community, captained the Leafs to back to back Conference Finals and returned some guy named Mats Sundin. I guess those haters were idiots as well. The only problem with this argument is that if you look at a history of trades in the NHL, most GM's (including Gainey) really dont know a) how a young player is really going to develop in the NHL OR b) how an established player acquired in a trade will fit in on their own team (see 50% of the habs trades for "star"players) When speaking about Saku, whether you like it or not, there is a little more to it than just a player and his accompanying stats, near-future potential, and trade value. With him comes a long-standing captaincy, attachment by the fans, and a story that a lot of fans identify with and cause them to root extra hard for this guy in a habs uniform. Given this, I think management knows they'd have to see certain returns in any trade involving him. Considering the difficulties that GM's have in doing this, it makes trading Saku kind of dangerous. Imagine if Bob traded him, and the return didnt pan out (not an unlikely scenario). This would go down as a TERRIBLE trade, and a dark cloud in Habs history. That would be compounded if he went to a cup contender (likely) and contributed to a cup run. So, the point is, GM's dont always know what is "best for the team going forward". When you're talking about our current captain, you'd better be DAMN sure that the players you get in a trade fit that bill. If a trade opportunity came along that looked like a sure thing (would have to be already proven and fairly young players), then go for it. But I really dont think we'll see an offer whose certainty in return outweighs the possible negative implications for this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Why are people so fearful of cutting ties to a captain that has lead his team to a 270-244-44-46 record as captain. In is 604 games as captain the Habs have won 270 games. The GM is not Rejean Houle. It is Mr. Conservative Bob Gainey. Koivu has been a great soldier. He has done great things in the community. I love him. But since World War II he is the poster boy for the worst Canadien teams of all-time. I will not refuse to listen to offers because the guy is a great guy. Anybody who does is letting emotion cloud judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted December 17, 2007 Author Share Posted December 17, 2007 Koivu has been a great soldier. He has done great things in the community. I love him. But since World War II he is the poster boy for the worst Canadien teams of all-time. I will not refuse to listen to offers because the guy is a great guy. Anybody who does is letting emotion cloud judgement. :ghg: Wamsley is right. If the offer is good, then make the trade, but if all we get in return for Koivu is a draft pick, I say keep him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Why are people so fearful of cutting ties to a captain that has lead his team to a 270-244-44-46 record as captain. In is 604 games as captain the Habs have won 270 games. The GM is not Rejean Houle. It is Mr. Conservative Bob Gainey. Koivu has been a great soldier. He has done great things in the community. I love him. But since World War II he is the poster boy for the worst Canadien teams of all-time. I will not refuse to listen to offers because the guy is a great guy. Anybody who does is letting emotion cloud judgement. Well, I'm not sure if you are replying to my comment, because yiou dont really rebut or address any of my points, but rather make some generic statements that have been tossed around here already. I'm assuming you were replying though, considering the timing,etc. To answer your questions..... Why are people so fearful? Well, I think I elaborated how it would be pretty bad news if we didnt get our due for a VERY popular player. Not to mention he's pretty good, and has some fuel left yet. I could also add that maybe (some) people just really like him. I could further add that maybe he could actually contribute to a cup run (eg. as a 2nd line centre). So, I guess there are lots of good reasons to keep him....the 1st of which is we will probably never get a good enough return for him. As far as "refusing to listen to offers, I'm not even sure why you keep using this as an argument. You are not alone in that. In fact, I dont know who on this board has said they would refuse to listen to offers, or to even consider them. I think most are open to it, but some are doubtful it would work out favorably. I think I have raised some pretty valid points in my previous post, and tried to explain to you ( and those who share your "Koivu is juts another pawn" opinion) what the flip-side of the argument is. You have just re-butted once again with blind accusation that the Koivu-lovers on this board are close-minded, short-sighted, and dont care about the future of the team, or our chances to win a cup. The issue is much deeper than this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 :ghg: Wamsley is right. If the offer is good, then make the trade, but if all we get in return for Koivu is a draft pick, I say keep him! Yes, yes...Bravo for Wamsley. He has shrewdly pointed out that we should aim for BETTER, as opposed to WORSE players on the team. I think we are all aware of this concept. Too bad it is not that straight forward, particularly in Saku's case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAKS-AVENUE Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 We just need that one scoring line. Any team doing a lot better then everyone else TODAY,including us.....(and there aren't that many) has a big scoring line and a good supporting cast. I believe we are developing a strong supporting cast and starting to develop a scoring line. We still need to address a lot of things mostly in the scoring department. Once that is in check we can start talking about a championship. Once this run at a championship begins which it may already be starting to take fold we will need a strong veteran leader that really picks up his play when something is on the line......... What type of leader? Yzerman, even when his numbers were down he still brought passion to the game. Andreychuk , even when numbers were down brought intensity Brind'amour, brought strength and hard-nosed play A guy people want to play for and a guy people want to see win............there aren't many guys like this around. It's what Ottawa lacks, Leafs lack, Phili lacks, most teams lack. The list can go on and on and if we are to make a run anytime soon we will need a guy of this caliber. If we made a run for the Cup I think people that hate the Habs would be cheering for us just to see Saku win. That says a lot about the impact this guy has made on peoples lives on and off the ice. You can't buy shit like that, you can't trade for shit like that. The guy has been loyal and bled red white and blue his entire career. So he has a ten to twenty game slump every year. Who doesn't? We need him in an eventual cup run, SAKU holds the KEY, but we have problems to address and he's not one of them................... My goal for this team is a CUP, with Koivu holding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 (edited) Well, I'm not sure if you are replying to my comment, because yiou dont really rebut or address any of my points, but rather make some generic statements that have been tossed around here already. I'm assuming you were replying though, considering the timing,etc. To answer your questions..... Why are people so fearful? Well, I think I elaborated how it would be pretty bad news if we didnt get our due for a VERY popular player. Not to mention he's pretty good, and has some fuel left yet. I could also add that maybe (some) people just really like him. I could further add that maybe he could actually contribute to a cup run (eg. as a 2nd line centre). So, I guess there are lots of good reasons to keep him....the 1st of which is we will probably never get a good enough return for him. As far as "refusing to listen to offers, I'm not even sure why you keep using this as an argument. You are not alone in that. In fact, I dont know who on this board has said they would refuse to listen to offers, or to even consider them. I think most are open to it, but some are doubtful it would work out favorably. I think I have raised some pretty valid points in my previous post, and tried to explain to you ( and those who share your "Koivu is juts another pawn" opinion) what the flip-side of the argument is. You have just re-butted once again with blind accusation that the Koivu-lovers on this board are close-minded, short-sighted, and dont care about the future of the team, or our chances to win a cup. The issue is much deeper than this... Who cares how popular a player is? Do you really think that trading Koivu would alter jersey sales? attendance figures? goodwill towards the Canadiens? I didn't see any change in these things when they traded Patrick Roy, a guy who actually won something for the Canadiens. In the end a move is judged based on the results of the trade. Simple as that. When Wendel Clark was traded Leaf fans went ballistic. How could you trade the face of the franchise, I love Wendel...blah blah blah. I can tell you how they feel about that deal now, and they aren't crying anymore. This is an 8 page thread where numerous individuals have shot down even the mention of trading him based 100% on emotion and not production. My point through 10 posts remains the same. He is not untouchable. You enter into trade discussions if the deal improves your chances of reaching your goal of winning the Stanley Cup. No disrespect to Koivu. We are not talking about Steve Yzerman, Mike Modano, Joe Sakic. These are guys who represent the glory years for their respective franchises and dealing them is an emotional disconnect from those glory years. I like Koivu, but he represents mediocrity to me. Your argument as to why they are fearful? Why fear a deal when you have not heard the principals involved? Does that make sense? Marleau for Koivu would be a fair return. Would I make that deal straight up? Probably not. I am not a big Marleau fan. But this thread has never been Marleau/Koivu. It is called is it time to trade Saku? If you agree that Koivu should be dealt for the right package then you agree with me. If you are getting bent out of shape because I think that individuals on this board are close minded because they are fans....so be it. Edited December 17, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 :ghg: Wamsley is right. If the offer is good, then make the trade, but if all we get in return for Koivu is a draft pick, I say keep him! Of course, the same thing goes for every player in the league. We should keep Koivu but if a great offer comes we should definitely take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Who cares how popular a player is? Do you really think that trading Koivu would alter jersey sales? attendance figures? goodwill towards the Canadiens? I didn't see any change in these things when they traded Patrick Roy, a guy who actually won something for the Canadiens. In the end a move is judged based on the results of the trade. Simple as that. When Wendel Clark was traded Leaf fans went ballistic. How could you trade the face of the franchise, I love Wendel...blah blah blah. I can tell you how they feel about that deal now, and they aren't crying anymore. This is an 8 page thread where numerous individuals have shot down even the mention of trading him based 100% on emotion and not production. My point through 10 posts remains the same. He is not untouchable. You enter into trade discussions if the deal improves your chances of reaching your goal of winning the Stanley Cup. No disrespect to Koivu. We are not talking about Steve Yzerman, Mike Modano, Joe Sakic. These are guys who represent the glory years for their respective franchises and dealing them is an emotional disconnect from those glory years. I like Koivu, but he represents mediocrity to me. Your argument as to why they are fearful? Why fear a deal when you have not heard the principals involved? Does that make sense? Marleau for Koivu would be a fair return. Would I make that deal straight up? Probably not. I am not a big Marleau fan. But this thread has never been Marleau/Koivu. It is called is it time to trade Saku? If you agree that Koivu should be dealt for the right package then you agree with me. If you are getting bent out of shape because I think that individuals on this board are close minded because they are fans....so be it. I dont recall anyone in particular disagreeing with the notion that Koivu should be traded if the price is definitiely a good return. If they have, I missed it and they are a very small majority. Most that I have seen who argue against trading Koivu just think that we wont get in return what he is worth to us. They are not saying not to consider each offer. They are just skeptical. I dont consider that close-minded. I can see that it is annoying to some to get jumped on for suggesting to trade Koivu. Fair enough. But while I am not getting bent out of shape about it, I am kind of annoyed that those who argue against trading Koivu for valid reasons get generalized as close-minded Koivu-lovers who care more about feel-good stories than the good of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataclaw Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I won't reply to the last 10 posts, since i don't feel like writing up a storm... Koivu is not touchable, but hey, let's just put it this way: I think there's a list of 10+ players that should be traded before Koivu, and Ryder is at the top of the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I won't reply to the last 10 posts, since i don't feel like writing up a storm... Koivu is not touchable, but hey, let's just put it this way: I think there's a list of 10+ players that should be traded before Koivu, and Ryder is at the top of the list. Well the list of the guys we would trade and the list that GMs find attractive probably don't match. Our most tradeable assets Markov Koivu Price Higgins Komisarek Plekanec Kostitsyn Kovalev McDonagh etc Guys we would like to trade Ryder Smolinski Brisebois Grabovski Fischer Huet Boullion The reason that Koivu comes up is because he is valuable. People don't want to trade Price, Higgins, Komisarek etc because they have not reached their potential and they are cheap. Koivu is as good as he is going to get right now, he has no work ethic issues (ala Kovalev), he is not a UFA and he has strong intangibles. So for another GM he is low risk. Nobody wants Ryder. If Gainey can pull a first line centre out of his ass without dealing any of the guys that we have all identified as the core, for picks and 1 of our top level prospects then I am sure we would all be behind it. But it is highly unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOOPAVILLIN Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 We just need that one scoring line. Any team doing a lot better then everyone else TODAY,including us.....(and there aren't that many) has a big scoring line and a good supporting cast. I believe we are developing a strong supporting cast and starting to develop a scoring line. We still need to address a lot of things mostly in the scoring department. Once that is in check we can start talking about a championship. Once this run at a championship begins which it may already be starting to take fold we will need a strong veteran leader that really picks up his play when something is on the line......... What type of leader? Yzerman, even when his numbers were down he still brought passion to the game. Andreychuk , even when numbers were down brought intensity Brind'amour, brought strength and hard-nosed play A guy people want to play for and a guy people want to see win............there aren't many guys like this around. It's what Ottawa lacks, Leafs lack, Phili lacks, most teams lack. The list can go on and on and if we are to make a run anytime soon we will need a guy of this caliber. If we made a run for the Cup I think people that hate the Habs would be cheering for us just to see Saku win. That says a lot about the impact this guy has made on peoples lives on and off the ice. You can't buy shit like that, you can't trade for shit like that. The guy has been loyal and bled red white and blue his entire career. So he has a ten to twenty game slump every year. Who doesn't? We need him in an eventual cup run, SAKU holds the KEY, but we have problems to address and he's not one of them................... My goal for this team is a CUP, with Koivu holding it. perfectly said!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chips Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 SAKU stays. GO HABS GO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thib46 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Well the list of the guys we would trade and the list that GMs find attractive probably don't match. Our most tradeable assets Markov Koivu Price Higgins Komisarek Plekanec Kostitsyn Kovalev McDonagh etc Guys we would like to trade Ryder Smolinski Brisebois Grabovski Fischer Huet Boullion The reason that Koivu comes up is because he is valuable. People don't want to trade Price, Higgins, Komisarek etc because they have not reached their potential and they are cheap. Koivu is as good as he is going to get right now, he has no work ethic issues (ala Kovalev), he is not a UFA and he has strong intangibles. So for another GM he is low risk. Nobody wants Ryder. If Gainey can pull a first line centre out of his ass without dealing any of the guys that we have all identified as the core, for picks and 1 of our top level prospects then I am sure we would all be behind it. But it is highly unlikely. And who do you think wants those players? General Managers are not idiots, well most of them are not. Of the list only Huet and Ryder may be of interest to some teams. Then Fischer and Grabovski but only as added players to another trade and as prospects only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 And who do you think wants those players? General Managers are not idiots, well most of them are not. Of the list only Huet and Ryder may be of interest to some teams. Then Fischer and Grabovski but only as added players to another trade and as prospects only. That was the point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkned Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Trade Fisher and Brisebois? Fisher: it's too early to throw the towel in his case. You just don't trade a 1rst rounder just because he's not developing as fast as anticipated. Look at Andrei Kostitsyn. 4 years after being drafted, he's finally blossoming into a top 6 forward. Brisebois: He's a good 6th/depth D. He's played ok for a 700k guy IMO. Because of possible injuries, you need that kind of depth and that's why we have 8 D with the club. If Gainey can obtain a BETTER 1st line centre than Koivu for a package that includes Koivu, the trade him I say. The only thing that counts is to make the Canadiens the best hockey team as is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Trade Fisher and Brisebois? Fisher: it's too early to throw the towel in his case. You just don't trade a 1rst rounder just because he's not developing as fast as anticipated. Look at Andrei Kostitsyn. 4 years after being drafted, he's finally blossoming into a top 6 forward. Brisebois: He's a good 6th/depth D. He's played ok for a 700k guy IMO. Because of possible injuries, you need that kind of depth and that's why we have 8 D with the club. If Gainey can obtain a BETTER 1st line centre than Koivu for a package that includes Koivu, the trade him I say. The only thing that counts is to make the Canadiens the best hockey team as is possible. I am not throwing in the towel on Fischer. But if a team came calling and cut a deal and said you can throw in one of S. Kostitsyn, Pacciorety, McDonagh, PK Subban, Fischer. Who would you be most willing to part with? As far as Brisebois goes. He is a depth guy, if a deal comes up and they wanted him you would be nuts not to throw in a depth guy. The point is the guys we don't want to trade are the guys the other teams want. The guys we would let go without pulling are teeth are guys the other GMs don't care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 The point is the guys we don't want to trade are the guys the other teams want. The guys we would let go without pulling are teeth are guys the other GMs don't care about. You'd think people would understand that point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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