Koivu poll on main site

[ddawwidd]

Well, that's an interesting question - and results are no less interesting. Should Canadiens retire Koivu's number? There are good arguments for every one option - perhaps that's why every answer got about 1/3 of votes.

You could easily say, that Koivu was (is) the captain during the darkest ages of the franchise. His Canadiens never made it past second round and when they did - they were humiliated (2:8 with Carolina in the last game of the 2002 series, swept by Tampa Bay in 2004). What's more (and perhaps most important) - his leadership is still questioned. Well, that would say NO to any retirement plans. And, oh by the way - few more years and the Canadiens will have to wear triple digit numbers, cause we're currently running out of not-retired jerseys.

On the other hand, only Jean Beliveau was a longer-serving captain of bleu-blanc-rouge. Koivu is the first European captain of the Habs and, boy, does he have a passion for the game. He beat cancer in 2002, almost every season he's played in was plagued by injuries (only four times in his NHL career he played more than 70 games). In 2006 he had that eye injury. What's more - like it or not - for all the league he's been the "heart and soul" of the Montreal Canadiens. Yeah, if he wins the cup, he will be one of the Greats - but isn't he already? (note - Carbonneau DID win the Cup as a captain - and he's not retired).

Tough decision, but a very interesting topic.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, that's an interesting question - and results are no less interesting. Should Canadiens retire Koivu's number? There are good arguments for every one option - perhaps that's why every answer got about 1/3 of votes.

You could easily say, that Koivu was (is) the captain during the darkest ages of the franchise. His Canadiens never made it past second round and when they did - they were humiliated (2:8 with Carolina in the last game of the 2002 series, swept by Tampa Bay in 2004). What's more (and perhaps most important) - his leadership is still questioned. Well, that would say NO to any retirement plans. And, oh by the way - few more years and the Canadiens will have to wear triple digit numbers, cause we're currently running out of not-retired jerseys.

On the other hand, only Jean Beliveau was a longer-serving captain of bleu-blanc-rouge. Koivu is the first European captain of the Habs and, boy, does he have a passion for the game. He beat cancer in 2002, almost every season he's played in was plagued by injuries (only four times in his NHL career he played more than 70 games). In 2006 he had that eye injury. What's more - like it or not - for all the league he's been the "heart and soul" of the Montreal Canadiens. Yeah, if he wins the cup, he will be one of the Greats - but isn't he already? (note - Carbonneau DID win the Cup as a captain - and he's not retired).

Tough decision, but a very interesting topic.

Well...with all due respect, you're confusing this franchise with the Vancouver Canucks. The retirement of your jersey as a Montreal Canadien is a privilege that has been reserved only for the very best hockey players of their generation - i.e., of all time. Look up in the rafters, not a single player that is less than immortal. Koivu is not even a lock for the Hall of Fame let alone the VASTLY more select honour of jersey retirement. This holds even if he wins a Cup.

Don't mistake me, I LOVE the guy. But he is not 'jersey retirement' material on THIS franchise.

[saskhab]

If Toe Blake isn't up there, Saku shouldn't be. Of course, I firmly believe that Toe Blake should be up there, but that's not the question.

[ddawwidd]

Well...with all due respect, you're confusing this franchise with the Vancouver Canucks. The retirement of your jersey as a Montreal Canadien is a privilege that has been reserved only for the very best hockey players of their generation - i.e., of all time. Look up in the rafters, not a single player that is less than immortal. Koivu is not even a lock for the Hall of Fame let alone the VASTLY more select honour of jersey retirement. This holds even if he wins a Cup.

Don't mistake me, I LOVE the guy. But he is not 'jersey retirement' material on THIS franchise.

I'm not saying he should be retired You're right when we're talking about stats and sports accomplishments. But in my opinion, Naslund... oops, Koivu ( ) will be remembered for two things:

- battle with cancer

- longevity as the Habs captain

The fact that this question is being posed (not only here, I've talked about it not long ago with my buddies) and about 30% voted YES gives a good reason to think, why they did.

The other thing is - we retire too many numbers. I hope that after 2009 I won't see a retirement night in Bell centre for a long time.

BTW - when I heard that only Beliveau lasted longer as our captain, my jaw hit the floor. Honestly, it doesn't seem like that long, does it?

Edited January 28, 2008 by ddawwidd

[OneSharpMarble]

If the decision rests solely on stats then he wont be retired but if they aren't that closeminded and realize that there is more to take into consideration then just some damn game then yes.

[BTH]

I think that over the years, we have had plenty of great leaders on our team that played with heart, were at least as good leaders as Koivu and were also better players - but aren't even being considered for jersey retirement. Sure, Koivu's a good guy but he is only an average leader. Personally, I think a lot of people assume he's a legendary leader just because he had cancer which I think is a bit unfair - I don't the fact that he overcame cancer should have anything to do with our view of him as a hockey player.

If he can win a couple of cups and put up 75-90 point seasons for the rest of his career (won't happen) then he might be able to be atleast considered for this honour. But until then, there are so many other candidates and all of them played with atleast as much heart and wore the CH with atleast as much pride.

[Psycing]

For me, retiring Koivu's number has nothing to do with stats (though he's no slouch).

Considering everything Saku's overcome in his career and to keep going game in and game out is enough for me to send his number to the rafters today.

Also, if the guy goes on to be the longest serving Canadiens' Captain, all the more reason.

Oh yeah, and he's overcome life-threatning Cancer, a career-threatning eye injury, and numerous other tweaks over the years. You look at him now, and he's probably the strongest he's been since he started playing hockey.

He gives to the community as any player should - even if it's not always en francais.

Anyway, here's to #11 hanging high and pround, where it should be, in the years to come.

[Psycing]

On another note - it's about time Montreal honors a more recent player. Sure, with Gainey's number going up next month, they're working on it... but how do you define the last decade for the Habs? Saku Koivu! (Along with many mediocre seasons, which - if you ask me - makes it seem an even better fit.)

[JLP]

if Saku wants his number retired he can make the case over the next few seasons, he has a fair bit of hockey left in him

[Dalhabs]

I think they should retire #33. He deserves it and it would be so nice to see "ROY" up there with the rest of our legends. He will never be an Avalanche in my eyes.

[johnnyhasbeen]

I have said it before and I will say it again, he is the longest running captain to not win a cup. Sort of like Sundin in Toronto. Even if he does, he is not that exceptional of a player. He is no Guy Lafluer. He is not even Bob Gainey. He isn't and has never been the best in the league at any facet of the game. He will have it tough making the HOF if this breaking out young team doesn't carry him to a run of cups as the captain. Couple cups, rehold the poll. Until then, no.

On another note - it's about time Montreal honors a more recent player. Sure, with Gainey's number going up next month, they're working on it... but how do you define the last decade for the Habs? Saku Koivu! (Along with many mediocre seasons, which - if you ask me - makes it seem an even better fit.)

Montreal hasn't and shouldn't now honor mediocity. Even if he was the best on thos mediocre teams, fact isn't he hasn't done what it takes. Richer first, he scored 50. Joking of course. No, nobody from that era has shown they deserve the honor. My opinion of course, I know his fans, and Roy's have ther opinion. Now 26 I may agree too, although Mats wasn't around long enough, like Mondue. Is 8 years enough. Mats was almost a point a game regular season and playoff for his 8 years, then retired. Honor him?

http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?page=His...mp;service=page

compare to Saku

http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?page=Pla...age&tab=crs

Who would you vote in?

Edited January 29, 2008 by johnnyhasbeen

[Fat Tony]

Koivu is a slightly above average player, an average captain and a sub average in the Habs legend category IMHO. Longevity without results is meaningless. Beating cancer and coming back from a brutal eye injury shows tons of character and perseverance...but has little or nothing to do when it comes to retiring a number. Hoist a few cups, and rack up a 50 goal season or two and we can talk.

I'd retire J.C. Tremblay's #3, Toe Blake's #6, Ken Reardon #17, Fergy/Shutt #22, Jacques Lemaire #25, Roy's #33, heck, maybe even Mats Naslund's #26 before I'd even consider thinking about retiring an overall average player like Koivu's number.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

See, that's the trouble. If you let Koivu in you have to open the floodgates to the Mats Naslunds, the Guy Carbonneaus, Jacques lemaires, etc..

Despite my earlier post, I wouldn't really be up in arms if they did retire #11. But it would be a sentimental pick based on fundamentally different criteria from anything that's gone before. Koivu is the only player from the last 20 years (apart from Roy, who is an obvious shoo-in) who I'd even be willing to consider, and it would indeed be just because of 'what he's meant' to the team and the city, rather than on-ice performance. Nonetheless, the retirement of #11 would mark a basic break with Habs' tradition and for that reason should be resisted.

Some other franchises probably would retire Koivu's number, though.

When Saks retires, if he's still with us, we should pull out all the stops to honour this great captain. Give him a commissioned portrait, the big pre-game ceremony, the speeches, etc.. If he's not with us when he retires, we should still bring him back for a "Saku Koivu Appreciation Night' with all the trappings. But don't retire his number.

Edited January 29, 2008 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Mont Royale]

Koivu is a slightly above average player, an average captain and a sub average in the Habs legend category IMHO. Longevity without results is meaningless. Beating cancer and coming back from a brutal eye injury shows tons of character and perseverance...but has little or nothing to do when it comes to retiring a number. Hoist a few cups, and rack up a 50 goal season or two and we can talk.

I'd retire J.C. Tremblay's #3, Toe Blake's #6, Ken Reardon #17, Fergy/Shutt #22, Jacques Lemaire #25, Roy's #33, heck, maybe even Mats Naslund's #26 before I'd even consider thinking about retiring an overall average player like Koivu's number.

C'mon, Koivu is "slighly above average"? I know he hasn't been at his best this year, but over his career, he's not even mentioned in the same sentence as average. And I'm sorry, but character and perseverance should have a great deal to do with whether a number gets retired.

Having said that, I don't necessary disagree that his number shouldn't be retired - or, at least, consideration shouldn't be given yet. This says more about the standards and expectations in Montreal than about Koivu. Given that the NY Rangers are retiring Adam Graves' number, Koivu would be worshipped if he played there.

[johnnyhasbeen]

C'mon, Koivu is "slighly above average"? I know he hasn't been at his best this year, but over his career, he's not even mentioned in the same sentence as average. And I'm sorry, but character and perseverance should have a great deal to do with whether a number gets retired.

Having said that, I don't necessary disagree that his number shouldn't be retired - or, at least, consideration shouldn't be given yet. This says more about the standards and expectations in Montreal than about Koivu. Given that the NY Rangers are retiring Adam Graves' number, Koivu would be worshipped if he played there.

But Graves won a cup!

[Dirty Harry]

Koivu has given those of us who've been following the habs through the 90s and 2000s lots of great moments. All the adversity, through all the crappy years, while putting up good numbers with all the injuries, and being the only one out there busting his ass, scrapping in the corners when he had 3rd rate floaters as his linemates, Saku is an awesome hockey player and worthy of honours. That said to truly earn a place in the hall of immortals I think he will have to lead the habs to a cup or two over the next few years now that we finally have a dynamite team in the making. If he can display the kind of veteran playoff play we've recently seen from the likes of Dave Andreychuk, Scott Niedermeyer, Chris Chelios, Rod Brind D'Amour, etc. he will cement his place.

[Fat Tony]

C'mon, Koivu is "slighly above average"? I know he hasn't been at his best this year, but over his career, he's not even mentioned in the same sentence as average. And I'm sorry, but character and perseverance should have a great deal to do with whether a number gets retired.

Having said that, I don't necessary disagree that his number shouldn't be retired - or, at least, consideration shouldn't be given yet. This says more about the standards and expectations in Montreal than about Koivu. Given that the NY Rangers are retiring Adam Graves' number, Koivu would be worshipped if he played there.

Over his career, he's about .88 points per game (ballpark) and worse in the playoffs. perhaps slightly above average was too harsh, but so is retiring his number in my books...so let's call it somewhere in between I like the guy, I admire some of his leadership skills, but he's just not sweater retiring material in my eyes. Having said that, if he retires as a habs, retiring his sweater is virtually a lock and I still totally disagree with it, but cest la vie.

You're right, Saku would be a god in New York, but they've had way more brutal teams than good ones over the years. Habs fans expect MUCH more.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Fat Tony

[Wamsley01]

Do the Habs have any retired players who do not reside in the Hall of Fame?

Is Koivu anywhere near the Hall of Fame?

It is not going to happen. If they made Larry Robinson/Serge Savard and Ken Dryden wait 20-30 years don't count on Saku getting up there.

He is an inspirational figure, but nothing in his career on the ice warrants a jersey retirement.

No Stanley Cups, 3 Playoff series wins in 13 years, one season where he averaged over a point per game. Why is this even a discussion?

Like Cucumber said, if Koivu is retired then you have to retire Mats Naslund, Steve Shutt, Jacques Lemaire etc etc etc.

If Koivu played on the Tampa Bay Lightning he probably would be honoured, but if he played on the Lightning none of you would think so highly of him.

Koivu has been the best player on a mediocre team for the last 10 years, retiring his number would be a disservice to those like Larry Robinson who

had to wait until all his family had passed and guys who are not up there right now that contributed more to the legend of this proud franchise.

Will the fans demand Koivu be raised in 30 years. I doubt it.

[KoZed]

It's been said before: can't retire Saku's number without retiring all the other jerseys of Habs who actually made it to the NHL Hall of Fame.

#3 - Butch Bouchard

#6 - Toe Blake

#17 - Ken Reardon

#21 - Guy Carbonneau

#22 - Steve Shutt

#24 - Chris Chelios

#25 - Jacques Lemaire

#33 - Patrick Roy

They all deserve it more than Saku... Heck, I could even throw #44 in there for our last 50 goals scorer!

[tokyohabs]

Stunning it was even proposed.

Bored with the pre-game skate, lads? Then look up at the retired numbers, and try to understand that they, too, were not about 'stats' - they were also great warriors, and yes, Saku's personal challenges have been greater; but they were also laden with the highest honours in the game as well. Each of them could have been MVP's at some point in their career. Could you ever say that about Saku?

Reminds me of those Mad TV skits: 'Lowered Expectations'

[Wamsley01]

Stunning it was even proposed.

Bored with the pre-game skate, lads? Then look up at the retired numbers, and try to understand that they, too, were not about 'stats' - they were also great warriors, and yes, Saku's personal challenges have been greater; but they were also laden with the highest honours in the game as well. Each of them could have been MVP's at some point in their career. Could you ever say that about Saku?

Reminds me of those Mad TV skits: 'Lowered Expectations'

Welcome to the new millenium. In 14 years the expectations have dropped from Stanley Cup to 8th place, to a parade for the second round.

[Neech]

Welcome to the new millenium. In 14 years the expectations have dropped from Stanley Cup to 8th place, to a parade for the second round.

Meh, I don't mind. Most of the teams I've rooted for haven't been big winners, although there are definitely winners among them. The Habs have had a down period and they're just on the cusp of being a contender again, and I'm happy because this is a team I've watched closely. Prolonged losing will make victory all the more sweet.

I do think that there will be some riots or something of the sort if we make it into the conference finals.

[ForumGhost]

While there are a couple that deserve it more than Saku (Blake obviously comes to mind), I don't think the honor is above him. I firmly believe that it has more to do with what a player gives to the team and the fans overall rather than just the numbers (including cups). Saku has led this team through it's darkest period in history and is still around. In fact, he is the second longest-reigning captain in the team's history, and he may yet break that record. To be able to provide steady leadership to a team for that long definitely deserves respect.

I'm not saying he's a shoe-in for the jersey reitrement, but let's wait to see what he can accomplish with a team that's threatening to become a cup-contender. It's not a luxury he's used to.

[Wamsley01]

While there are a couple that deserve it more than Saku (Blake obviously comes to mind), I don't think the honor is above him. I firmly believe that it has more to do with what a player gives to the team and the fans overall rather than just the numbers (including cups). Saku has led this team through it's darkest period in history and is still around. In fact, he is the second longest-reigning captain in the team's history, and he may yet break that record. To be able to provide steady leadership to a team for that long definitely deserves respect.

I'm not saying he's a shoe-in for the jersey reitrement, but let's wait to see what he can accomplish with a team that's threatening to become a cup-contender. It's not a luxury he's used to.

Hall of Fame type players are what is required. Simple as that.

Just because fans get attached to the best player on a bad to mediocre team does not warrant jersey retirement. Should Brisebois be considered?

He was one of the best defencemen in his time and actually played on a Cup team. What about Rivet who gave it everything he had while he was here?

If they had a life threatening illness would we remember Rivet or Brisebois more fondly?

Koivu beat cancer. It was an awesome moment, it was 6 years ago. He gives it everything he has, Great.

But you do not reward players for being the best player on a bad team. Not in Montreal.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Psycing]

Just another idea here -

Say Koivu retires a habs. Does a rookie (or UFA) come in the following year and wear #11? Even if it's not retired, I doubt management (or whoever deals with this sort of thing) "allows" another player to wear the number... at least for a little while.