Gainey: Genius?

[JoeLassister]

So because nobody else maintains that performance than the Canadiens should not shoot for that standard?

Go check Detroit "The Stanley Cup Champion's" consistency. The consistency they SHOULD be striving for.

THe goal is the CUP, not the best team in the Eastern Conference.

ok but next time don't recap the whole REGULAR SEASON in a 2000 words with 0 about playoffs when the whole thing is about winning the Cup...

I don't think more regular seaon consistency would have change anything to this crapy 2nd round result...

[Habitforming]

Yup....

Gainey's a genius!

[JMMR]

ok but next time don't recap the whole REGULAR SEASON in a 2000 words with 0 about playoffs when the whole thing is about winning the Cup...

I don't think more regular seaon consistency would have change anything to this crapy 2nd round result...

I think just the opposite more consistency throughout the season will push this teams young players to preform better and better every single night. Also another good thing to try is to not be over .500 in the final 10 games of the season.

[tokyohabs]

I think just the opposite more consistency throughout the season will push this teams young players to preform better and better every single night. Also another good thing to try is to not be over .500 in the final 10 games of the season.

???

Am I the only one not getting this? You suggesting we should tank the end of the season?

[Habitforming]

???

Am I the only one not getting this? You suggesting we should tank the end of the season?

Basically, stay hungry and don't waltz in too confident.

[tokyohabs]

Staying hungry by losing games?

Don't buy it.

[Chris]

What are you guys talking about? They were the most consistant team all last season, no real long losing streaks, i think only one 3 game losing streak. How much more consistant couls they be.

They weren't good enough to win in the playoffs, they weren't tough enough and they had no killer instinct.

What do you expect from a team that for the last 15 years was use to losing, Rome wasn't built in day.

This years team is tougher, younger (withour Sundin) and more talented then last years team.

During the playoffs people need to step up, the Habs arguably have know who has ever dome that. Kovalev 94 maybe.

[JoeLassister]

What are you guys talking about? They were the most consistant team all last season, no real long losing streaks, i think only one 3 game losing streak. How much more consistant couls they be.

They weren't good enough to win in the playoffs, they weren't tough enough and they had no killer instinct.

What do you expect from a team that for the last 15 years was use to losing, Rome wasn't built in day.

This years team is tougher, younger (withour Sundin) and more talented then last years team.

During the playoffs people need to step up, the Habs arguably have know who has ever dome that. Kovalev 94 maybe.

my point exactly

[Wamsley01]

ok but next time don't recap the whole REGULAR SEASON in a 2000 words with 0 about playoffs when the whole thing is about winning the Cup...

I don't think more regular seaon consistency would have change anything to this crapy 2nd round result...

Umm, maybe you should look at the post in the context of the discussion.

The discussion was that the Habs could finish with less points and improve on last season.

One of the points brought up was consistency of effort. I felt that their first 40 games were wildly inconsistent.

Just because you do not have any long losing streaks does not mean that your effort is consistent.

It is fully possible to play 2 poor games followed by 1 strong game and follow that pattern for a month

and finish 4-8 for the month with no 3 game losing streak. Is that the consistency they are striving for?

How soon we all forget what this team played like in November early December when the panic alarm was at full tilt.

Detroit the best team in the league went

10-2-1 in October

7-4-1 in November

12-2-1 in December

9-2-1 in January

4-8-2 in February (which included a 1-8-2 stretch)

10-2-1 in March

2-1 in April

So Detroit who lost more than 4 games more than once all season in a month is inconsistent because they had

ONE poor 11 game stretch? A stretch in which they went 1-8-2 and were outshot only twice and overall outshot

their opponents 378-274. The Wings were outshot 7 times ALL YEAR. Contrast to the 48 TIMES the Habs were outshot.

THAT is consistent effort as far as I'm concerned. And seeing as they won the Stanley Cup and is the model

that the league should emulate, that is the effort I would be striving for.

If the Habs ARE consistent and the Wings AREN'T because they had ONE long losing streak

then maybe I don't want a consistent team.

It is amazing to me how the board has flopped from ripping the team to shreds almost every move to defending

the team like it had no flaws last season.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Wamsley01

[TruthMonger]

Go check Detroit "The Stanley Cup Champion's" consistency. The consistency they SHOULD be striving for.

An 11 game bad run is significant. I agree that the Habs really were the most consistent team last year. Unfortunately, they were consistent at a lower level than Detroit played when they weren't tanking it.

Edited July 23, 2008 by TruthMonger

[Wamsley01]

An 11 game bad run is significant. I agree that the Habs really were the most consistent team last year. Unfortunately, they were consistent at a lower level than Detroit played when they weren't tanking it.

During the losing streak Detroit gave up more than 26 shots TWICE. And were outshot 2 times.

Their goaltending was horrendous during that stretch and they lost 5 games by 1 goal and two of those

losses were 1-0.

If you went over 82 Canadiens games and looked at the lack of efforts I am sure they outnumber Detroit's by a fair distance.

Who cares if the Wings streak happened to fall in a one month span while the Habs turned in 3-4 per month.

It is all surface level analysis. Montreal WAS NOT more consistent than Detroit, hence Detroit finishing

11 points better in a tougher conference.

Detroit's effort was better nightly, they outshot their opponents 90% of the time and they won more consistently.

Yet Montreal was more consistent?

News to me

Edited July 23, 2008 by Wamsley01

[CerebusClone]

What are you guys talking about? They were the most consistant team all last season, no real long losing streaks, i think only one 3 game losing streak. How much more consistant couls they be.

They weren't good enough to win in the playoffs, they weren't tough enough and they had no killer instinct.

What do you expect from a team that for the last 15 years was use to losing, Rome wasn't built in day.

This years team is tougher, younger (withour Sundin) and more talented then last years team.

During the playoffs people need to step up, the Habs arguably have know who has ever dome that. Kovalev 94 maybe.

When I originally brought this up I was talking about the quality of play on the ice, not necessarily the end result (wins/losses). We had a great regular season on paper, but in reality I don't think we played anywhere near like a top conference team and certainly not like the best offensive team in the NHL.

I actually mentionned on another board before the end of the season that if we kept playing like we were - even though we were winning a lot of games - that we wouldn't get very far in the playoffs, and indeed we were very lucky to even get past the Bruins.

I want the see the Habs impose their tempo, control the games a lot more, and dictate the play on the ice. Most of the time last season players were improvising to other teams' play, and simply reacting instead of making things happen. However, for this to happen, Guy Carbonneau needs to do some real coaching, not simply asking players to work; everyone's working hard, now they need to also play smart.

We also need to find a was to "revive" Saku Koivu, who hasn't been the same player since the lockout (except for a few good streaks). I think it's a simple motivation problem, after all the guy has wasted what could have been a great prime on a bottom-feeding team for whom success was simply securing a playoff spot, not to mention with top wingers such as Zednik, Savage, Bulis, and Ryder. However, we also saw flashes of the old Koivu every once in a while, such as last playoffs, or when he was asked to take young players like Higgins or Latendresse under his wing.

This season, Koivu has absolutely no reason not to come to camp fully motivated, and the best shape of his life. For the first time since, he has a chance to contend fot the Stanley Cup, and also, at worst he'll be playing with Higgins and Sergei Kostsitsyn.

[Wamsley01]

???

Am I the only one not getting this? You suggesting we should tank the end of the season?

My guess would be referencing the Habs collapse down the stretch in 1993.

[Wamsley01]

When I originally brought this up I was talking about the quality of play on the ice, not necessarily the end result (wins/losses). We had a great regular season on paper, but in reality I don't think we played anywhere near like a top conference team and certainly not like the best offensive team in the NHL.

I actually mentionned on another board before the end of the season that if we kept playing like we were - even though we were winning a lot of games - that we wouldn't get very far in the playoffs, and indeed we were very lucky to even get past the Bruins.

I want the see the Habs impose their tempo, control the games a lot more, and dictate the play on the ice. Most of the time last season players were improvising to other teams' play, and simply reacting instead of making things happen. However, for this to happen, Guy Carbonneau needs to do some real coaching, not simply asking players to work; everyone's working hard, now they need to also play smart.

I agree 100%. It took the Habs half the season to bring it every night. Now they have to implement

their style and impose their will on other teams if they want to reach the next level.

When it gets to the point where I sit down in front of the TV and EXPECT a win every night then the Habs

have reached that elite level. But too many nights last season I sat in front of the TV having no idea what to expect.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Chris]

Wamsley, well if you weren't sure what you would get last year, how did you feel the last 10? I think they averaged "bringing it" 5 games a year.

Tp impose your will on team you need to be tough, last year they weren't tough enough, I'll grant you they were tough compared to years past.

With Laraque, O'Byrne added to the line up they are tougher. Maybe someone besides Gorges will stick up for his goalie.

Why do you think koivu will play with Higgins and SK? Who are they going to play Tanguay with? I'll bet Tangauy and Koivu play together with Lats or SK. Obviously is Sundin signs that changes everything.

CC, the players playing smarter is on them, not necassarily the coach. I agree with you about being smarter. But how many times will Koivu, Kovalev and the other vets take stupid penalties, they haven't learned it yet. I doubt GC doesn't mention playting smarter to the team. They jsut don't listen. Heck the clients at my psych unit learn faster then some of these guys.

[Wamsley01]

Wamsley, well if you weren't sure what you would get last year, how did you feel the last 10? I think they averaged "bringing it" 5 games a year.

Tp impose your will on team you need to be tough, last year they weren't tough enough, I'll grant you they were tough compared to years past.

With Laraque, O'Byrne added to the line up they are tougher. Maybe someone besides Gorges will stick up for his goalie.

Why do you think koivu will play with Higgins and SK? Who are they going to play Tanguay with? I'll bet Tangauy and Koivu play together with Lats or SK. Obviously is Sundin signs that changes everything.

CC, the players playing smarter is on them, not necassarily the coach. I agree with you about being smarter. But how many times will Koivu, Kovalev and the other vets take stupid penalties, they haven't learned it yet. I doubt GC doesn't mention playting smarter to the team. They jsut don't listen. Heck the clients at my psych unit learn faster then some of these guys.

Last 10 years? I have no recollection of the years 1997-2007. I suppressed that abuse.

.

They will be tougher this year, and my whole point is I think they will be better and improve. But they may not surpass

the 104 points from last season. They made a huge leap last season but it is just the first step on the ascent to

perennial Cup contender which is the goal.

A perfect example of this would be the Penguins last season. They finished with 3 points less than the season before

but survived without Crosby and Fleury for huge stretches, something they could not have sustained the year before.

Malkin emerged and they went from flaming out against the Sens to the Stanley Cup Finals.

But Detroit remains the standard, and to meet that standard they have work to do. It took them 120 games to begin to listen to Carbo

and deliver strong efforts regularly. I expect they will continue to evolve this season and the arrival of Sundin would accelerate

that process. This team is still young and learning, and with the efficient summer Gainey has turned in he has left me with no

reason to not expect his goal to be reached.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Chris]

Yea, unfortunately like you i blocked it all out. Man some of those lineups were pathetic. I will be excited to see a fight where the habs player isn't picking himself off the ice with his opponant standing above him.

I think it will be between the Habs and Boston for the title, but first over all again may be a bit of a dream. We;ll see, i doubted them all last year and look what happened.

[Seb]

When Detroit went 1-8-2 last season, they were without Lidstrom during the entire stretch and without 3 or 4 regular defensemen at a time. Any team would be hard-pressed to win without 3 to 4 dmen. Especially without Lidstrom.

[Wamsley01]

When Detroit went 1-8-2 last season, they were without Lidstrom during the entire stretch and without 3 or 4 regular defensemen at a time. Any team would be hard-pressed to win without 3 to 4 dmen. Especially without Lidstrom.

Good point

[JoeLassister]

I don't get this hype about the outshot statistic. Who cares really ? Finishing 1rst of the East while being outshot 48 times means 1 thing : we allow many crapy shots. The Habs goaltending has not been THAT awesome last season.

Here is the only statistic about outshooting that counts to me :

Habs outshooting opponents :

17 W 8 L 3 OTL .607 W%

Habs being outshoted :

28 W 15 L 5 OTL .583 W%

Edited July 23, 2008 by JoeLassister

[CerebusClone]

Why do you think koivu will play with Higgins and SK? Who are they going to play Tanguay with? I'll bet Tangauy and Koivu play together with Lats or SK. Obviously is Sundin signs that changes everything.

I mentionned this was a "worst case" scenario, not necessarily what will happen. Of course, if Mats Sundin doesn't play in Montreal next season, I would hope he'll get to play with at least Alex Tanguay (although I'm still not sold on him). It's strange enough that Koivu never got to play with Andrei Kostsitsyn (or Samsonov or Perezhogin last year), but did play play with Begin, Kostopoulos, Mike Johnson, and Dandeneault over the last two seasons...

Without Sundin and if there is chemistry between them, I would like to see Koivu play with Tanguay and Latendresse (with Kyle Chipchura playing with Higgins and Sergei Kostsitsyn).

CC, the players playing smarter is on them, not necassarily the coach. I agree with you about being smarter. But how many times will Koivu, Kovalev and the other vets take stupid penalties, they haven't learned it yet. I doubt GC doesn't mention playting smarter to the team. They jsut don't listen. Heck the clients at my psych unit learn faster then some of these guys.

I wasn't talking about stupid penalties, it's not Carbonneau's fault if Kovalev was selfish enough to take a really stupid penalty that nearly cost us a playoff game (and eventually perhaps the series) just because of his ego... or that he did the exact same thing two games later at almost the worst possible time (this times he was lucky the referee didn't see him). Although I could argue that a player who isn't comfortable in the a system wil often be behind the play, which leads to a lot of hooking and tripping penailties.

Again, I was talking more in terms of the quality of play, the system put in place by the coach, and how players react in that system. At this moment, I don't really feel like the Habs have a system or an identity, at least not on even strength, all Carbonneau seems to do is ask the players to play hard... every time we lose it's because the guys didn't want it enough... well I'm sorry but it takes more than that.

When you look at Detroit, eveyone plays the same game, players know where to be and what to do in every situation. They control the game in the offensive and neutral zones, and are just remarkable in their own. Even Aaron Downey looks like a Selke candidate on the ice, whereas in Montreal one could wonder if he was good enough the for Quebec semi-pro league.

Of course I'm comparing them to the very best in the NHL at this moment, but other teams like New Jersey over the last decade or even Carolina when they beat us in the playoffs are other examples of teams playing together, for the sake of the team, and following a solid plan adapted to the players on hand.

[CerebusClone]

I don't get this hype about the outshot statistic. Who cares really ? Finishing 1rst of the East while being outshot 48 times means 1 thing : we allow many crapy shots. The Habs goaltending has not been THAT awesome last season.

Here is the only statistic about outshooting that counts to me :

Habs outshooting opponents :

17 W 8 L 3 OTL .607 W%

Habs being outshoted :

28 W 15 L 5 OTL .583 W%

I also remember several times over the last two years where we played awful for most of the game, but we lucky enough to make strong comeback near the end. While that shows good determination and a strong will, it also shows a problem with consistenct, and also that perhaps the game plan from the coach is too often mediocre; basically when players are forced to abandon the game plan, they are more successful.

[Wamsley01]

I don't get this hype about the outshot statistic. Who cares really ? Finishing 1rst of the East while being outshot 48 times means 1 thing : we allow many crapy shots. The Habs goaltending has not been THAT awesome last season.

Here is the only statistic about outshooting that counts to me :

Habs outshooting opponents :

17 W 8 L 3 OTL .607 W%

Habs being outshoted :

28 W 15 L 5 OTL .583 W%

Really good teams do not get outshot on a regular basis. Maybe if the number was 15 for Detroit and 25 for Montreal

it is a stat that could be ignored, but 48 times to 7? And you are telling me Montreal is consistent?

Of course being outshot does not tell the whole story, Montreal was leading Ottawa 7-0 late in the season entering

the 3rd period and sat back and got shellacked in the 3rd period and held on for a 7-5 win. They were outshot in the game.

Now were shots indicative of the play? No, but they indicate to me that the Habs played 2 periods not 3.

They had to hang on for dear life in the last 5 minutes in a game they were leading 7-0 with 20 minutes to go.

That is not a CONSISTENT performance. That game should have ended stress free instead of hanging out

Carey Price to dry.

That is what they did all year. They started strong, played uninterested for 2 months and then put it in overdrive

for the last 40 games. The playoffs against the Bruins, they got out 3-1, the laid back and stopped skating and

turned it up in Game 7 and won 5-0.

No killer instinct, no urgency for large portions of the season.

The fact that they won that many games being outshot is also a possible indicator that they won some games

that they should not have, which is why I think that they could get better and not match 104 points.

[Chris]

shot differential does make a difference. It's simple math. Most NHl goalies stop around 92% of the shots. If you take 20 and give up 40. Your more likely to lose more then you win.

Obviously there are still exceptions, a hot goalie, poor offensive teams etc.

last year the Habs were significantly better in that stat and they had a better record.

[Wamsley01]

I mentionned this was a "worst case" scenario, not necessarily what will happen. Of course, if Mats Sundin doesn't play in Montreal next season, I would hope he'll get to play with at least Alex Tanguay (although I'm still not sold on him). It's strange enough that Koivu never got to play with Andrei Kostsitsyn (or Samsonov or Perezhogin last year), but did play play with Begin, Kostopoulos, Mike Johnson, and Dandeneault over the last two seasons...

Without Sundin and if there is chemistry between them, I would like to see Koivu play with Tanguay and Latendresse (with Kyle Chipchura playing with Higgins and Sergei Kostsitsyn).

I wasn't talking about stupid penalties, it's not Carbonneau's fault if Kovalev was selfish enough to take a really stupid penalty that nearly cost us a playoff game (and eventually perhaps the series) just because of his ego... or that he did the exact same thing two games later at almost the worst possible time (this times he was lucky the referee didn't see him). Although I could argue that a player who isn't comfortable in the a system wil often be behind the play, which leads to a lot of hooking and tripping penailties.

Again, I was talking more in terms of the quality of play, the system put in place by the coach, and how players react in that system. At this moment, I don't really feel like the Habs have a system or an identity, at least not on even strength, all Carbonneau seems to do is ask the players to play hard... every time we lose it's because the guys didn't want it enough... well I'm sorry but it takes more than that.

When you look at Detroit, eveyone plays the same game, players know where to be and what to do in every situation. They control the game in the offensive and neutral zones, and are just remarkable in their own. Even Aaron Downey looks like a Selke candidate on the ice, whereas in Montreal one could wonder if he was good enough the for Quebec semi-pro league.

Of course I'm comparing them to the very best in the NHL at this moment, but other teams like New Jersey over the last decade or even Carolina when they beat us in the playoffs are other examples of teams playing together, for the sake of the team, and following a solid plan adapted to the players on hand.

Yep, Detroit is succesful because of the team concept. Every player on that team commits to their defensive responsibility

and when you have a stud back there like Lidstrom and secondary guys like Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart you are going to

be tough to beat. But Babcock did the same thing with an inferior Ducks team as well.

Carbo needs to improve as much as Kostitsyn, Price and Latendresse if the Cup dreams are to be realized