Lets have a little fun: Montreal drafting, what could have been: Questioning of drafting soo many US kids!

[HabsWEST]

Montreal and Timmons has done a good job of drafting, but think of how much better even if one or two of the additional players below..And the importance of the entry draft and finding young players to come in right away under the cap, allows and gives more flexibility...

SO IS IT THE RIGHT CALL TO ALWAYS DRAFT US HIGH SCHOOL KIDS?EURO ( RUSSIA) AND WAIT UPTO 4 years for them?

Lets take a look:

( all players taken in comparison to other players available in same round few picks later.)

( assuming, size, speed, Big Centre, Goaltending needs, and Defense)

( French/Quebec players)

( Not drafting all US/Europe)

( AND OF COURSE HINDSIGHT)

2003

KOSTITSYN : PARISE / Carter / Richards

Urquhart: Bergeron / Backes

2004

Chipchura : Zajac

Emelin : Edler / Franzen

2005

Price : Setuguchi / Kopitar

2006

Fischer : Giroux/Berglund

Maxwell: Lucic

White: Steve Mason

2007

Pacioretty : Perron

2008

Jason Missiaen : Mike Murphy ( Murpy OHL 2 time goalie of the year, taken 2 rounds later last year )

So for discussion sake: ( not including 2008 )

Andrei Kostitsyn, Corey Urquhart, Kyle Chipchura, Alexei Emelin, Carey Price, David Fischer, Ben Maxwell, Ryan White, Max Pacioretty

for:

Zach Parise, Todd Zajac, Johan Franzen, Patrice Begeron, Devan Setuguchi, Claude Giroux, Milan Lucic, Steve Mason, David Perron

( Or Alexander Edler, Backes, Carter/Richards)

How different the team would look, even one or two of the picks above..

But shows how important, and lucky, and right timing and the whole mix of team changes with one decision.

lets say, if Montreal, didnt luck out on the draw in 2005 with 5th pick, and PRICE was gone, who would have they taken..

Basis why Detroit has done well ( drafting, and being fortunate and lucky to pick who they have), and teams like Chicago making the most of their high picks, and even Boston who have combined some timely picks, free agent pick ups, and trades...

BOTTOM LINE: I havent been a big fan of Timmons always going for USA /EURO players most of the time, when above players are available and CAN HAVE AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT. In TODAYS NHL this is a must DRAFT FOR PLAYERS WHO CAN PLAY ASAP, and not wait for the :

EMELINS, FISCHERS, MCDONAUGH's and go after the BERGERONS, GIROUX's, PERRON ( notice french canadian) or the LUCIC, SETUGUCHI, RICHARDS, CARTERS...WHL, OHL etc...

And pick goalies later on rounds ala HALAK, MASON etc...

SO for this year draft, LETS see, big, fast skating players drafted from Canada or whomever, and not wait 4 years for them!!

FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Funny thing is, before this season, the Canadiens were universally regarded in hockey circles as possessing one of the very best crops of young players and up-and-coming prospects in the NHL. That assessment has changed pretty rapidly after Plekanec, both Kostitsyns, and O'Byrne, not to mention 'young vets' Higgins and Komisarek, spent the 2008-09 season stinking out the joint, with Price blowing hot-and-cold.

But the weird and sudden lurch downwards in the stock of the Habs' young talent is precisely what makes me leery of drawing any definitive conclusions just yet. Look at a guy like Komisarek, he's been around for years and there still seems to be no general consensus on whether his breakout 2007-08 season was a career year or a sign of what he'll be for the next decade. And I'll bet that if you went back to (say) 2004 or some earlier phase of Komi's career, you could draw unfavourable contrasts with whoever we picked ahead of him - but as of about 2007 the comparison started to look loads better.

Many, many players go through a period where (basically) they have to decide whether they are willing to do what it takes to be a serious NHLer. Markov went through it, so did Komisarek, Ribeiro, Hainsey, etc.. Now Pleks and the Kostitsyns are. Ya can't begin to draw conclusions until the player comes out the other side.

That's not really your question, though. The question is whether we're drafting from the right regions. The only regions I'd be leery of drafting from myself are Russia and environs. We've been burned twice, with Emelin and Perezhogin, and for various reasons players from those regions seem to be more likely to come with baggage. Unless it's a sure-fire home run like Ovechkin, I'd give an edge to a North American or Western European over a Russian or other player from the former USSR.

I also don't understand why we still have no quality C on our team. If your rationale is 'always draft the best player regardless of position,' that's one thing, but then you have to be willing to TRADE those assets somewhere down the line to address ridiculously glaring weaknesses. Has Gainey been as prepared as he should be to move a Higgins or a Kostitsyn for a beast at C? That's another - but related - question, I suppose.

Edited April 28, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[ForumGhost]

Note: this can be a fun little topic, but PLEASE do not let it degrade into arguments about how 'stupid' the Habs were for drafting certain players. Remember, hindsight is always 20/20.

[Habitforming]

Your "bottom line" is skewed horribly. This is likely to be long, so bear with me .

The draft isn't about "drafting players that can play ASAP" at all.... quite the opposite acually.

The draft is about drafting the best player available through thier current progress and an imagined development curve. Sometimes they are ready to play right away but it isn't as common as you suggest (almost 300 players drafted every year and what, 10 played right away last year?)

Part of the reasoning for the US/euro player being drafted are the rules regarding thier rights. US collegate and euro players have a much bigger window of signing before thier rights go back into the draft. Not only is this a good idea for development and not rushing players, but it is also a clever move in a cap world.

As for the coulda/ woulda/ shoulda scenario that is being discussed, this can be done for every team.

Everyone always mentions Detroit when talking about the draft and finding gems in late rounds. Well, I'm going to dispell that myth once and for all.

Everyone knows that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were later picks that had a huge impact but that was years ago.... what have they done lately?

Well..... since 2000 they have had 3 first round picks.

19th OA in 2005, 27th OA in 2007, and 29th OA in 2000

With those 3 picks they selected Kronwall (2000), Kindl (2005), and most recently Brendan Smith (2007). After those 3 there isn't much to talk about.

2007 Entry 27th Rd.1 Brendan Smith D

2007 Entry 88th Rd.3 Joakim Andersson C

2007 Entry 148th Rd.5 Randy Cameron C

2007 Entry 178th Rd.6 Zack Torquato C

2007 Entry 208th Rd.7 Bryan Rufenach D

2006 Entry 41st Rd.2 Cory Emmerton L

2006 Entry 47th Rd.2 Shawn Matthias C

2006 Entry 62nd Rd.2 Dick Axelsson L

2006 Entry 92nd Rd.3 Daniel Larsson G

2006 Entry 182nd Rd.6 Jan Mursak L

2006 Entry 191st Rd.7 Nick Oslund R

2006 Entry 212nd Rd.7 Logan Pyett D

2005 Entry 19th Rd.1 Jakub Kindl D

2005 Entry 42nd Rd.2 Justin Abdelkader L 4 NHL Games

2005 Entry 80th Rd.3 Christofer Lofberg C

2005 Entry 103rd Rd.4 Mattias Ritola C

2005 Entry 132nd Rd.5 Darren Helm L 23 NHL Games

2005 Entry 137th Rd.5 Johan Ryno L

2005 Entry 151st Rd.5 Jeff May D

2005 Entry 175th Rd.6 Juho Mielonen D

2004 Entry 97th Rd.3 Johan Franzen C 292 NHL Games

2004 Entry 128th Rd.4 Evan McGrath C

2004 Entry 151st Rd.5 Sergei Kolosov D

2004 Entry 162nd Rd.5 Tyler Haskins C

2004 Entry 192nd Rd.6 Anton Axelsson L )

2004 Entry 226th Rd.7 Steve Covington R

2004 Entry 257th Rd.8 Gennady Stolyarov R

2004 Entry 290th Rd.9 Nils Backstrom D

2003 Entry 64th Rd.2 Jim Howard G 9 NHL Games

2003 Entry 132nd Rd.4 Kyle Quincey D 85 NHL Games

2003 Entry 164th Rd.5 Ryan Oulahen L

2003 Entry 170th Rd.6 Andreas Sundin L

2003 Entry 194th Rd.6 Stefan Blom

2003 Entry 226th Rd.7 Tomas Kollar L

2003 Entry 258th Rd.8 Vladimir Kutny L

2003 Entry 289th Rd.9 Mikael Johansson C

2002 Entry 58th Rd.2 Jiri Hudler C 255 NHL Games

2002 Entry 63rd Rd.2 Tomas Fleischmann R 191 NHL Games

2002 Entry 95th Rd.3 Valtteri Filppula C 235 NHL Games

2002 Entry 131st Rd.4 Johan Berggren D

2002 Entry 166th Rd.5 Logan Koopmans G

2002 Entry 197th Rd.6 Jimmy Cuddihy C

2002 Entry 229th Rd.7 Derek Meech D 77 NHL Games

2002 Entry 260th Rd.8 Pierre-Olivier Beaulieu D

2002 Entry 262nd Rd.9 Christian Soderstrom L

2002 Entry 291st Rd.9 Jonathan Ericsson D

2001 Entry 62nd Rd.2 Igor Grigorenko L

2001 Entry 121st Rd.4 Drew MacIntyre G 2 NHL Games

2001 Entry 129th Rd.4 Miroslav Blatak D

2001 Entry 157th Rd.5 Andreas Jamtin R

2001 Entry 195th Rd.6 Nick Pannoni G

2001 Entry 258th Rd.8 Dmitry Bykov D 71 NHL Games (none since '02)

2001 Entry 288th Rd.9 Francois Senez D

2000 Entry 29th Rd.1 Niklas Kronwall D 260 NHL Games

2000 Entry 38th Rd.2 Tomas Kopecky R 183 NHL Games

2000 Entry 102nd Rd.4 Stefan Liv G

2000 Entry 127th Rd.4 Dmitri Semenov F

2000 Entry 128th Rd.4 Alexander Seluyanov D

2000 Entry 130th Rd.4 Aaron Van Leusen R

2000 Entry 187th Rd.6 Par Backer C Grums

2000 Entry 196th Rd.6 Paul Ballantyne D

2000 Entry 228th Rd.7 Jimmie Svensson L

2000 Entry 251st Rd.8 Todd Jackson L

2000 Entry 260th Rd.8 Evgeni Bumagin

Total games played since 2000 by the 13 Red Wing players that made the NHL: 1687

Total games played since 2000 by the 27 Canadien draftees that made the NHL: 3151

Edited April 29, 2009 by Habitforming

[alexstream]

Your "bottom line" is skewed horribly. This is likely to be long, so bear with me .

The draft isn't about "drafting players that can play ASAP" at all.... quite the opposite acually.

The draft is about drafting the best player available through thier current progress and an imagined development curve. Sometimes they are ready to play right away but it isn't as common as you suggest (almost 300 players drafted every year and what, 10 played right away last year?)

Part of the reasoning for the US/euro player being drafted are the rules regarding thier rights. US collegate and euro players have a much bigger window of signing before thier rights go back into the draft. Not only is this a good idea for development and not rushing players, but it is also a clever move in a cap world.

As for the coulda/ woulda/ shoulda scenario that is being discussed, this can be done for every team.

Everyone always mentions Detroit when talking about the draft and finding gems in late rounds. Well, I'm going to dispell that myth once and for all.

Everyone knows that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were later picks that had a huge impact but that was years ago.... what have they done lately?

Well..... since 2000 they have had 3 first round picks.

19th OA in 2005, 27th OA in 2007, and 29th OA in 2000

With those 3 picks they selected Kronwall (2000), Kindl (2005), and most recently Brendan Smith (2007). After those 3 there isn't much to talk about.

2007 Entry 27th Rd.1 Brendan Smith D

2007 Entry 88th Rd.3 Joakim Andersson C

2007 Entry 148th Rd.5 Randy Cameron C

2007 Entry 178th Rd.6 Zack Torquato C

2007 Entry 208th Rd.7 Bryan Rufenach D

2006 Entry 41st Rd.2 Cory Emmerton L

2006 Entry 47th Rd.2 Shawn Matthias C

2006 Entry 62nd Rd.2 Dick Axelsson L

2006 Entry 92nd Rd.3 Daniel Larsson G

2006 Entry 182nd Rd.6 Jan Mursak L

2006 Entry 191st Rd.7 Nick Oslund R

2006 Entry 212nd Rd.7 Logan Pyett D

2005 Entry 19th Rd.1 Jakub Kindl D

2005 Entry 42nd Rd.2 Justin Abdelkader L 4 NHL Games

2005 Entry 80th Rd.3 Christofer Lofberg C

2005 Entry 103rd Rd.4 Mattias Ritola C

2005 Entry 132nd Rd.5 Darren Helm L 23 NHL Games

2005 Entry 137th Rd.5 Johan Ryno L

2005 Entry 151st Rd.5 Jeff May D

2005 Entry 175th Rd.6 Juho Mielonen D

2004 Entry 97th Rd.3 Johan Franzen C 292 NHL Games

2004 Entry 128th Rd.4 Evan McGrath C

2004 Entry 151st Rd.5 Sergei Kolosov D

2004 Entry 162nd Rd.5 Tyler Haskins C

2004 Entry 192nd Rd.6 Anton Axelsson L )

2004 Entry 226th Rd.7 Steve Covington R

2004 Entry 257th Rd.8 Gennady Stolyarov R

2004 Entry 290th Rd.9 Nils Backstrom D

2003 Entry 64th Rd.2 Jim Howard G 9 NHL Games

2003 Entry 132nd Rd.4 Kyle Quincey D 85 NHL Games

2003 Entry 164th Rd.5 Ryan Oulahen L

2003 Entry 170th Rd.6 Andreas Sundin L

2003 Entry 194th Rd.6 Stefan Blom

2003 Entry 226th Rd.7 Tomas Kollar L

2003 Entry 258th Rd.8 Vladimir Kutny L

2003 Entry 289th Rd.9 Mikael Johansson C

2002 Entry 58th Rd.2 Jiri Hudler C 255 NHL Games

2002 Entry 63rd Rd.2 Tomas Fleischmann R 191 NHL Games

2002 Entry 95th Rd.3 Valtteri Filppula C 235 NHL Games

2002 Entry 131st Rd.4 Johan Berggren D

2002 Entry 166th Rd.5 Logan Koopmans G

2002 Entry 197th Rd.6 Jimmy Cuddihy C

2002 Entry 229th Rd.7 Derek Meech D 77 NHL Games

2002 Entry 260th Rd.8 Pierre-Olivier Beaulieu D

2002 Entry 262nd Rd.9 Christian Soderstrom L

2002 Entry 291st Rd.9 Jonathan Ericsson D

2001 Entry 62nd Rd.2 Igor Grigorenko L

2001 Entry 121st Rd.4 Drew MacIntyre G 2 NHL Games

2001 Entry 129th Rd.4 Miroslav Blatak D

2001 Entry 157th Rd.5 Andreas Jamtin R

2001 Entry 195th Rd.6 Nick Pannoni G

2001 Entry 258th Rd.8 Dmitry Bykov D 71 NHL Games (none since '02)

2001 Entry 288th Rd.9 Francois Senez D

2000 Entry 29th Rd.1 Niklas Kronwall D 260 NHL Games

2000 Entry 38th Rd.2 Tomas Kopecky R 183 NHL Games

2000 Entry 102nd Rd.4 Stefan Liv G

2000 Entry 127th Rd.4 Dmitri Semenov F

2000 Entry 128th Rd.4 Alexander Seluyanov D

2000 Entry 130th Rd.4 Aaron Van Leusen R

2000 Entry 187th Rd.6 Par Backer C Grums

2000 Entry 196th Rd.6 Paul Ballantyne D

2000 Entry 228th Rd.7 Jimmie Svensson L

2000 Entry 251st Rd.8 Todd Jackson L

2000 Entry 260th Rd.8 Evgeni Bumagin

Total games played since 2000 by the 13 Red Wing players that made the NHL: 1687

Total games played since 2000 by the 27 Canadien draftees that made the NHL: 3151

I love you.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Your "bottom line" is skewed horribly. This is likely to be long, so bear with me .

The draft isn't about "drafting players that can play ASAP" at all.... quite the opposite acually.

The draft is about drafting the best player available through thier current progress and an imagined development curve. Sometimes they are ready to play right away but it isn't as common as you suggest (almost 300 players drafted every year and what, 10 played right away last year?)

Part of the reasoning for the US/euro player being drafted are the rules regarding thier rights. US collegate and euro players have a much bigger window of signing before thier rights go back into the draft. Not only is this a good idea for development and not rushing players, but it is also a clever move in a cap world.

As for the coulda/ woulda/ shoulda scenario that is being discussed, this can be done for every team.

Everyone always mentions Detroit when talking about the draft and finding gems in late rounds. Well, I'm going to dispell that myth once and for all.

Everyone knows that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were later picks that had a huge impact but that was years ago.... what have they done lately?

Well..... since 2000 they have had 3 first round picks.

19th OA in 2005, 27th OA in 2007, and 29th OA in 2000

With those 3 picks they selected Kronwall (2000), Kindl (2005), and most recently Brendan Smith (2007). After those 3 there isn't much to talk about.

2007 Entry 27th Rd.1 Brendan Smith D

2007 Entry 88th Rd.3 Joakim Andersson C

2007 Entry 148th Rd.5 Randy Cameron C

2007 Entry 178th Rd.6 Zack Torquato C

2007 Entry 208th Rd.7 Bryan Rufenach D

2006 Entry 41st Rd.2 Cory Emmerton L

2006 Entry 47th Rd.2 Shawn Matthias C

2006 Entry 62nd Rd.2 Dick Axelsson L

2006 Entry 92nd Rd.3 Daniel Larsson G

2006 Entry 182nd Rd.6 Jan Mursak L

2006 Entry 191st Rd.7 Nick Oslund R

2006 Entry 212nd Rd.7 Logan Pyett D

2005 Entry 19th Rd.1 Jakub Kindl D

2005 Entry 42nd Rd.2 Justin Abdelkader L 4 NHL Games

2005 Entry 80th Rd.3 Christofer Lofberg C

2005 Entry 103rd Rd.4 Mattias Ritola C

2005 Entry 132nd Rd.5 Darren Helm L 23 NHL Games

2005 Entry 137th Rd.5 Johan Ryno L

2005 Entry 151st Rd.5 Jeff May D

2005 Entry 175th Rd.6 Juho Mielonen D

2004 Entry 97th Rd.3 Johan Franzen C 292 NHL Games

2004 Entry 128th Rd.4 Evan McGrath C

2004 Entry 151st Rd.5 Sergei Kolosov D

2004 Entry 162nd Rd.5 Tyler Haskins C

2004 Entry 192nd Rd.6 Anton Axelsson L )

2004 Entry 226th Rd.7 Steve Covington R

2004 Entry 257th Rd.8 Gennady Stolyarov R

2004 Entry 290th Rd.9 Nils Backstrom D

2003 Entry 64th Rd.2 Jim Howard G 9 NHL Games

2003 Entry 132nd Rd.4 Kyle Quincey D 85 NHL Games

2003 Entry 164th Rd.5 Ryan Oulahen L

2003 Entry 170th Rd.6 Andreas Sundin L

2003 Entry 194th Rd.6 Stefan Blom

2003 Entry 226th Rd.7 Tomas Kollar L

2003 Entry 258th Rd.8 Vladimir Kutny L

2003 Entry 289th Rd.9 Mikael Johansson C

2002 Entry 58th Rd.2 Jiri Hudler C 255 NHL Games

2002 Entry 63rd Rd.2 Tomas Fleischmann R 191 NHL Games

2002 Entry 95th Rd.3 Valtteri Filppula C 235 NHL Games

2002 Entry 131st Rd.4 Johan Berggren D

2002 Entry 166th Rd.5 Logan Koopmans G

2002 Entry 197th Rd.6 Jimmy Cuddihy C

2002 Entry 229th Rd.7 Derek Meech D 77 NHL Games

2002 Entry 260th Rd.8 Pierre-Olivier Beaulieu D

2002 Entry 262nd Rd.9 Christian Soderstrom L

2002 Entry 291st Rd.9 Jonathan Ericsson D

2001 Entry 62nd Rd.2 Igor Grigorenko L

2001 Entry 121st Rd.4 Drew MacIntyre G 2 NHL Games

2001 Entry 129th Rd.4 Miroslav Blatak D

2001 Entry 157th Rd.5 Andreas Jamtin R

2001 Entry 195th Rd.6 Nick Pannoni G

2001 Entry 258th Rd.8 Dmitry Bykov D 71 NHL Games (none since '02)

2001 Entry 288th Rd.9 Francois Senez D

2000 Entry 29th Rd.1 Niklas Kronwall D 260 NHL Games

2000 Entry 38th Rd.2 Tomas Kopecky R 183 NHL Games

2000 Entry 102nd Rd.4 Stefan Liv G

2000 Entry 127th Rd.4 Dmitri Semenov F

2000 Entry 128th Rd.4 Alexander Seluyanov D

2000 Entry 130th Rd.4 Aaron Van Leusen R

2000 Entry 187th Rd.6 Par Backer C Grums

2000 Entry 196th Rd.6 Paul Ballantyne D

2000 Entry 228th Rd.7 Jimmie Svensson L

2000 Entry 251st Rd.8 Todd Jackson L

2000 Entry 260th Rd.8 Evgeni Bumagin

Total games played since 2000 by the 13 Red Wing players that made the NHL: 1687

Total games played since 2000 by the 27 Canadien draftees that made the NHL: 3151

Holy crap...ladies and gentlemen, we just might have our Post of the Year.

This is the sort of contribution that amazes me. You'd *never* get comparable analysis from the mainstream media, hockey or otherwise. They're just too deadline-crunched or else lacking in any imagination. As aggravating as this site can be, it's posts like this that blow me away. Well done!!

[Wamsley01]

Funny thing is, before this season, the Canadiens were universally regarded in hockey circles as possessing one of the very best crops of young players and up-and-coming prospects in the NHL. That assessment has changed pretty rapidly after Plekanec, both Kostitsyns, and O'Byrne, not to mention 'young vets' Higgins and Komisarek, spent the 2008-09 season stinking out the joint, with Price blowing hot-and-cold.

But the weird and sudden lurch downwards in the stock of the Habs' young talent is precisely what makes me leery of drawing any definitive conclusions just yet. Look at a guy like Komisarek, he's been around for years and there still seems to be no general consensus on whether his breakout 2007-08 season was a career year or a sign of what he'll be for the next decade. And I'll bet that if you went back to (say) 2004 or some earlier phase of Komi's career, you could draw unfavourable contrasts with whoever we picked ahead of him - but as of about 2007 the comparison started to look loads better.

Many, many players go through a period where (basically) they have to decide whether they are willing to do what it takes to be a serious NHLer. Markov went through it, so did Komisarek, Ribeiro, Hainsey, etc.. Now Pleks and the Kostitsyns are. Ya can't begin to draw conclusions until the player comes out the other side.

That's not really your question, though. The question is whether we're drafting from the right regions. The only regions I'd be leery of drafting from myself are Russia and environs. We've been burned twice, with Emelin and Perezhogin, and for various reasons players from those regions seem to be more likely to come with baggage. Unless it's a sure-fire home run like Ovechkin, I'd give an edge to a North American or Western European over a Russian or other player from the former USSR.

I also don't understand why we still have no quality C on our team. If your rationale is 'always draft the best player regardless of position,' that's one thing, but then you have to be willing to TRADE those assets somewhere down the line to address ridiculously glaring weaknesses. Has Gainey been as prepared as he should be to move a Higgins or a Kostitsyn for a beast at C? That's another - but related - question, I suppose.

This is ALL about patience. As Habitforming pointed out, the reason they are drafting

US players and Euros is because they have a longer window to retain their rights while

watching their development.

It is a move that was used in the NBA 5-10 years ago to not only save $$ against

the cap and avoiding first round salary commitments, but because San Antonio could allow

players like Ginobili to develop for 3 to 4 years with zero pressure. They essentially

allowed him to mature at no cost and then brought him over after 4 years and

he made an immediate impact on an entry level deal.

Now the problem with this thought process on these boards is the word PATIENCE.

This board longs for Latendresse to make the team, Price, the Kostitsyn's and questions

why Max Paccioretty could not have helped the Habs in the playoffs. When these 20-21

year olds struggle......GAINEY IS AN IDIOT! HE DESTROYED THEM! THEIR CONFIDENCE IS

SHOT! WILL THEY EVER RECOVER??????

When they draft players with the patient approach the response is....WHY IS MCDONAGH

TAKING SO LONG? IS HE A BUST? FISCHER IS A BUST! Why didn't we draft insert name here

instead.

Just like I mentioned in another post. The hockey world has lusted after a lot of the Canadiens

top prospects over the last 3-4 years. The majority of Gainey/Timmons work is about to enter

the 21-25 age range where they begin to blossom. Why do what the Flyers did?

They panicked over the slow development of Carter and Richards and went out and paid

big bucks for Daniel Briere. If they had remained patient, Carter and Richards were just about

to bloom and they could have used the cap space to acquire an elite goaltender or re-up

Braydon Coburn. So why should Gainey panic now?

Everybody is worried about Higgins? Why? He was miscast for 2+ seasons because he

had a torrid streak in 2006. They drafted him as a Jere Lehtinen type forward and what

a shock, there he is playing the best hockey of his career when placed in a position to

maximize his abilities in that type of role. The intro to the 100th anniversary placed

Higgins over an image of Lafleur when it should be over an image of Keane or Carbonneau.

Player between 21-25 have a tendency to arrive out of nowhere, they make big leaps

when the light bulb goes off. With SO MANY prospects around that age, the Habs should

save their cash this summer and continue to take stock of what they have. Another year

of assesment will allow them a better idea of what they want to do and a boatload of cash

in a buyers market of 2011.

What is one more year in a 16 year drought if it buys you valuable time? A couple of

impetuous wrong decisions could set this franchise back to the beginning of another

five year rebuild cycle and behind a team like the Leafs who they are still miles ahead of.

I don't believe in the Sky is Falling assessment of the majority, but some poor cap decisions

can destroy a rebuild project and some astute ones can vault it forward.

[KoZed]

Timmins likes to pick in the US because, like Wamsley pointed out, they can retain their rights longer. But also because he believes that US kids are physically better prepared for the NHL than CHL kids, because the US schedules being so short players spend more time practicing and training than other junior leagues.

As for the draft choices themselves, there's 3 schools of thoughts: which player is the most NHL-ready, which player has the best end potential and which player has the most chances to be a regular NHL-er one day. Timmins falls in the last category and prefers players who he believes have sure-fire NHL potential. That means they make the NHL after some AHL seasoning, but they dont necessarily become high-end players like some gambles other teams make.

[Trizzak]

Timmins falls in the last category and prefers players who he believes have sure-fire NHL potential. That means they make the NHL after some AHL seasoning, but they dont necessarily become high-end players like some gambles other teams make.

And a quick look at Montreal's top 20 prospects pretty much confirms that. Very little top end talent, but plenty of genuine future NHLers.

[alexstream]

Holy crap...ladies and gentlemen, we just might have our Post of the Year.

This is the sort of contribution that amazes me. You'd *never* get comparable analysis from the mainstream media, hockey or otherwise. They're just too deadline-crunched or else lacking in any imagination. As aggravating as this site can be, it's posts like this that blow me away. Well done!!

Mathias Brunet does that all the time on his blog.

was praising the Kings the other day.

[Colin]

Total games played since 2000 by the 13 Red Wing players that made the NHL: 1687

Total games played since 2000 by the 27 Canadien draftees that made the NHL: 3151

Awesome.

The only issue I have with all that is this: How many of those 27 Canadien draftees would have actually played on the Wings roster, and how many Wing kids that didn't make it would have been on Habs rosters? Particularly when the difference in teams in the early 2000's was so drastic?

I betcha it makes this a LOT closer.

[lazy26]

Awesome.

The only issue I have with all that is this: How many of those 27 Canadien draftees would have actually played on the Wings roster, and how many Wing kids that didn't make it would have been on Habs rosters? Particularly when the difference in teams in the early 2000's was so drastic?

I betcha it makes this a LOT closer.

Don't forget that Detroit has no troubles attracting UFAs, and doesn't *have* to rely on its draft selections as much as MTL.

[Habitforming]

Awesome.

The only issue I have with all that is this: How many of those 27 Canadien draftees would have actually played on the Wings roster, and how many Wing kids that didn't make it would have been on Habs rosters? Particularly when the difference in teams in the early 2000's was so drastic?

I betcha it makes this a LOT closer.

Thanks for the Kudos guys

Look at the list... guy don't fall that far through the cracks, they get traded and suceed elsewhere ie.. Streit, Hainsey, Beauchemin etc etc.

How many guys do you really recognize in those names?

Edited April 29, 2009 by Habitforming

[Habitforming]

I love you.

LMAO

[saskhab]

You forgot Jonathon Ericsson, 9th round 2002, who is currently playing for them in their playoff lineup. He's a freaking beast, and probably better than any of our young D. He played some games last year as well... his totals should be included for Detroit.

EDIT: Shawn Matthias has also played some NHL games... for Florida. He was traded for Todd Bertuzzi in one of Holland's worst trades.

The other thing with Detroit: they keep their young players down in the AHL for a lot longer than we do. Kyle Chipchura "not making it" at age 23 wouldn't be weird for them.

Edited April 30, 2009 by saskhab

[Habitforming]

Speaking of Drafting....

anyone have info on the Draft tickets for this June?

[Habitforming]

You forgot Jonathon Ericsson, 9th round 2002, who is currently playing for them in their playoff lineup. He's a freaking beast, and probably better than any of our young D. He played some games last year as well... his totals should be included for Detroit.

EDIT: Shawn Matthias has also played some NHL games... for Florida. He was traded for Todd Bertuzzi in one of Holland's worst trades.

The other thing with Detroit: they keep their young players down in the AHL for a lot longer than we do. Kyle Chipchura "not making it" at age 23 wouldn't be weird for them.

Ha ha ha.

As for Matthias... he never played a single game for the Wings... all the Habs players played at least 1 game for the drafting club and that's why he was excluded.

[KoZed]

And a quick look at Montreal's top 20 prospects pretty much confirms that. Very little top end talent, but plenty of genuine future NHLers.

Yep. In that regards, Timmins owes it to André Savard. When AS came on board, the team had virtually no decent prospects. AS was almost forced into drafting players he would have to count on to make the NHL in a couple of years, very little margin for gambles.

[Sir_Boagalott]

WoW Habitforming, lots of work on that post. Unfortunately around half of it is irrelevent. You seem to be forgetting the lockout, and the new CBA rules.

The draft isn't about "drafting players that can play ASAP" at all.... quite the opposite acually.

Actually, no thats is what the draft is aboot.

Heres why:

Unrestricted Free Agents

Unrestricted free agents are younger now. The minimum age at which a player can shop himself on the open market will drop through the first four years of the agreement:

- In 2005, 31 years old.

- In 2006, 29 years old or eight years of NHL service.

- In 2007, 28 years old or seven years of NHL service.

- In 2008, 27 years old or seven years in the NHL.

The Habs are still drafting using the pre lockout CBA rules.

Seriously whats the point drafting a 18-19 y/o who is going to college for 3-5 yrs? These prospects will be 22-24 when they are done Uni, and some of them might still need to play in the AHL 1-2 yrs before making the NHL (24-26).

By the time Lats is a UFA there is a possibility that he will have played more years for the Habs than all the NCAA prospects we are talking in this thread combined.

Funny thing is, before this season, the Canadiens were universally regarded in hockey circles as possessing one of the very best crops of young players and up-and-coming prospects in the NHL.

No offense but thats debateable. True the Habs are 1 of the top 3-5 teams for drafting players on their team, but so what? The Habs might have close to 20 players they drafted themselves, big deal. Wouldnt you prefer the Habs to have just 5 players they drafted, but who can each get 70+ pts? (which the Habs have none of). Sure the Habs develop more players, but most other teams are develpoing less players who are a lot better. The Habs are the Kings of developing semi mediocre players. Hooray for us!!

[ForumGhost]

It would be nice to be able to nab someone who can break it and preform at an NHL level immediately, but unfortunately, no one can predict how prospects will pan out. After maybe the first 5 top picks in any given draft, it's pretty much a total crap shoot.

That being said, we still have a crop of young talent waiting in the wings. We may not have that 80 pt guy, but at least we will have a strong base to build on for the next decade. As a Habs fan, I'm more optimistic than I've been in a while. While the season may not have gone the way we wanted, we were at least introduced to Pacioretty and D'Agostini, two offensively gifted players.

Edited May 3, 2009 by ForumGhost

[Sir_Boagalott]

After maybe the first 5 top picks in any given draft, it's pretty much a total crap shoot.

Thats a crock though.

The draft is about drafting the best player available through thier current progress and an imagined development curve. Sometimes they are ready to play right away but it isn't as common as you suggest (almost 300 players drafted every year and what, 10 played right away last year?)

hahaha. OK, the real info is that last years draft wasnt a strong draft per se, but even still almost all of the top 10 1st rnd picks all played this year. Also note that almost 10 rookie Dmen drafted last year played this year.

Habs drafted lots of Dmen in the last 2-3 drafts and 1 might play NHL next year. Weber who was a 3rd rnd pick in 07.

Just because the Habs could never do it doesnt mean the rest of the league cant and dont actually do it because lots of other teams do it. After the top 5 picks overall it might be a crapshoot in drafting guys who your team can use by picking the best guy at your draft position. That may be true. Which also prooves why doing that is useless.

The draft is about drafting the best player available through thier current progress and an imagined development curve

I've been saying this for years as everyone says what a great job Timmins is doing drafting but its a crock. Always take best player available at your draft position? Seriously? Ya think thats a good idea? What about an unlikely event that the best player available at your draft position every bloody round turns out to be a goalie? Ya, just draft 7 goalies, how smart. I'm sure at next years trade deadline the Thrashers would entertain trading Illya for say 5 goalies. Who wouldnt make that trade.

Habs must start drafting intelligently, which means drafting the best players who play positions your team actually needs at your draft position.

The Habs have needed a large centre for 15 years now and they could actually fill that void in less than 2 years with 1 simple solution : draft the god damn guy yourself!! In 15 years no team has wanted to hand over a player the Habs desperately need and that wont ever likely change. The Habs have a lot of prospects in positions they dont need who are all similar small stature that no other team wants but the Habs drafted them because they were the best at that draft position. :puke:

[KoZed]

Habs must start drafting intelligently, which means drafting the best players who play positions your team actually needs at your draft position.

Lot of scouts and experts would say that it's easier to trade for position than to trade for quality, which is why BPA is the preferred philosophy of many teams.

But that's usually when you dont have a clear-cut favorite. Oftentimes scouts will have big favorites that are neither the BPA or the needed position. They're just in love with the player and want him.

[Sir_Boagalott]

I realise that but they way the Habs seem to draft is useless.

ex if Habs draft at 16th spot, and ranked 16th is a Dmen, 5-10, 188 lbs, 17th spot is a C, 6-4 220+ lbs

Which player do the Habs draft? Shock everybody and trade up 2 spots to sign the 5-7 168lbs C because he's higher ranked so therefore he must be better. Either way the last thing they apparently would do is draft the 6-4 220+ C. :puke:

Why dont they just selectively target the players that are ranked within 6-8 spots off of their draft position (2 up & 6 below) and scout the hell out those 8 and select the best 1 who plays a position they need right now.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Sir_Boagalott

[KoZed]

I realise that but they way the Habs seem to draft is useless.

ex if Habs draft at 16th spot, and ranked 16th is a Dmen, 5-10, 188 lbs, 17th spot is a C, 6-4 220+ lbs

Which player do the Habs draft? Shock everybody and trade up 2 spots to sign the 5-7 168lbs C because he's higher ranked so therefore he must be better. Either way the last thing they apparently would do is draft the C. :puke:

Why dont they just selectively target the players that are ranked within 6-8 spots off of their draft position (2 up & 6 below) and scout the hell out those 8 and select the best 1 who plays a position they need right now.

Hmmm, you talk as if everybody had the same rankings.

Every team has their own rankings. Teams draft whoever is left on their list come their rank early (first two rounds, usually) then for the rest of the draft they will go with players they know more (ie. Detroit scouting the hell out of Sweden and picking Swedes) and/or position players.

It's not really as easy as you make it sound. Say its a defenseman year and where the Habs are picking there's 5 great defensemen who are a real clear cut about everyone that's left and the top ranked C isnt even on the same level. What do they do? Pass on a better player just to get a lesser player that fits their need?

Drafting based on needs is what got us Bilodeau, Stevenson, Ryan, Chouinard and all the other useless picks. Chipchura was a needs pick that's not panning out.

In 98 the Habs needed a big center in a draft where quality was with smaller, quicker players. Because they had that big center need in mind, they went with Chouinard and passed on Gagne. If you look around, there was not any other big center they would have been better off with, before or after. The next big center available was Milan Kraft. Chouinard was really the only big center available there. If they had just decided to pick the best talent rather than pick based on needs, we could have got Gagne or Gomez or Cheechoo.

The Habs did what you suggested when they drafted Higgins. They had him in their sight and moved up to pick him. They did the same for Latendresse.

Komisarek was slated as a top 5 pick in 2001 and he fell on the Habs lap at 7th. AKost was clearly the most raw talent available at the Habs spot in 2003. Sure a bunch of guys look better now, but back then they were iffy and not as promising natural talents as Kostitsyn was. They could have turned out Chipchuras.

Speaking of Chipchura, I'd feel he was exactly that kind of needs-based pick. I thought it was a lame pick, a safe, low-risk low-reward pick that got the Habs attention because they lacked big checking centers. But see how based on needs can turn against you: Lapierre, a 3rd rounder in 2003, made the Chipchura pick useless by overtaking him in the depth chart and stealing the spot he was supposed to take.

I think you especially targeted the Price pick; and it's no secret that I never liked that pick. Before the draft I was vocal that the ideal pick for the Habs was Kopitar; and I still stand by it. The BPA most people had ranked for us wasnt even Price, it was Brule and I wanted none of it. Kopitar was taylor-made for us.

I understand your point of view though, but like you said, to achieve it the Habs would have to be more agressive in trying to move up to get their man, not reach for a lesser player when their turn comes because it fits their needs. And Gainey isnt that type.

[ForumGhost]

I realise that but they way the Habs seem to draft is useless.

ex if Habs draft at 16th spot, and ranked 16th is a Dmen, 5-10, 188 lbs, 17th spot is a C, 6-4 220+ lbs

Which player do the Habs draft? Shock everybody and trade up 2 spots to sign the 5-7 168lbs C because he's higher ranked so therefore he must be better. Either way the last thing they apparently would do is draft the 6-4 220+ C. :puke:

Why dont they just selectively target the players that are ranked within 6-8 spots off of their draft position (2 up & 6 below) and scout the hell out those 8 and select the best 1 who plays a position they need right now.

Did you ever think that between Gainey, Timmins and all their scouts and advisers, that they may know a thing or two about drafting? Not saying we should follow blindly, but it seems like no one will give these guys the benefit of the doubt despite the fact that I bet every single person involved in the decision making process has more insider knowledge than every member of this forum combined.

Edited May 4, 2009 by ForumGhost