JLP Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 The Coyotes case is going to a bankruptcy court auction on Sept 10, some think the rich Balsillie offer could prevail. Bettman and his cronies say they would fight that legally "for years." If the club stays in Phoenix, it seems it will continue taking handouts and losing money. Is it just me that hates seeing profitable teams like the Habs subsidizing personal vendettas? Or am I reading this all wrong? How does the typical Canadian hockey fan feel about the whole mess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 The Coyotes case is going to a bankruptcy court auction on Sept 10, some think the rich Balsillie offer could prevail. Bettman and his cronies say they would fight that legally "for years." If the club stays in Phoenix, it seems it will continue taking handouts and losing money. Is it just me that hates seeing profitable teams like the Habs subsidizing personal vendettas? Or am I reading this all wrong? How does the typical Canadian hockey fan feel about the whole mess? Owner willing to put $$$ into franchise and relocate to a market where it'll have a much larger chance of success? Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Sadly, league management has less than one collective brain; they'd rather lose money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 Hamilton paper has hit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I'm amazed that Betteman has such support that Balsillie was voted down unanimously...you know he's promised those guys a boatload to get that level of support. There is not one thing wrong with Balsillie, his money, his character, etc...certainly, he's no worse then many members of the NHL Board of Governers. I'm shocked that other owners are sitting back while Moyes was getting the shaft. There are a number of them that could be in the same boat and told they can't sell their franchise for the highest bid...it's CRAZY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Balsillie would have more chances by saying he'd move the team to Mexico... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy Ryder Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Balsillie is fighting his real enemy now, it's not Bettman, it's the owners of the Leafs. This is why the owners all stand together, the teams that make this league making money $$ cannot be challenge in their own market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Balsillie is fighting his real enemy now, it's not Bettman, it's the owners of the Leafs. This is why the owners all stand together, the teams that make this league making money $$ cannot be challenge in their own market. I agree. I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. The Leafs don't want another team in southern ontario, and neither do the Sabres. Also the other American owners don't want to try and sell tickets to a game featuring a team from a city nobody's ever heard of, Hamilton, it all makes sense. Edited August 31, 2009 by Habsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsniper Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I agree. I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. The Leafs don't want another team in southern ontario, and neither do the Sabres. Also the other American owners don't want to try and sell tickets to a game featuring a team from a city nobody's ever heard of, Hamilton, it all makes sense. If they can sell tickets for Edmonton, they can sell tickets for Hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) I'm amazed that Betteman has such support that Balsillie was voted down unanimously...you know he's promised those guys a boatload to get that level of support. There is not one thing wrong with Balsillie, his money, his character, etc...certainly, he's no worse then many members of the NHL Board of Governers. I'm shocked that other owners are sitting back while Moyes was getting the shaft. There are a number of them that could be in the same boat and told they can't sell their franchise for the highest bid...it's CRAZY. there is no honor amongst thieves and the nhl has a few of them. Edited August 31, 2009 by habs rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I know I've said this before, but I'll go ahead and say it again. Short term, yes, moving the Coyotes to a Canadian city would be good for the league. Revenue would increase, no legal fees in regards to bankruptcy hearings, etc. Long term, however, if the league truly is serious about its expansion into non-hockey markets, the team needs to stay where it is. There was practically no such thing as youth hockey in Arizona before the Coyotes. High school hockey, for example, is only 10 years old in the state. Most sports fans follow the sports they grew up with, and don't often go for new things. Now that kids in Phoenix are growing up with hockey, there is an increasing future fan base. In 10 years, these will be season ticket holders and people who will raise their kids watching hockey. Growing hockey in a place like Phoenix is a difficult and long term process, especially when the team stinks. I think expanding the league to 30 teams was a mistake, but I think it is one we should live with. If I had to pick a team to move to Canada, it would be the Panthers. Florida doesn't need two teams to "grow the sport." Given the choice between them and Tampa, I say move the Panthers since TB has won a Cup. My next choice used to be NJ, since they get terrible fan support for a winning team. Now they have a new arena, so that's unrealistic. Now, I'd have to go with Atlanta. It's the second time they've tried there, so even people who grew up with hockey in Atlanta during the 70's are supporting the team very well. A shame things aren't working out well there, the arena is wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 ... if the league truly is serious about its expansion into non-hockey markets, the team needs to stay where it is. There was practically no such thing as youth hockey in Arizona before the Coyotes. High school hockey, for example, is only 10 years old in the state. Most sports fans follow the sports they grew up with, and don't often go for new things. Now that kids in Phoenix are growing up with hockey, there is an increasing future fan base. In 10 years, these will be season ticket holders and people who will raise their kids watching hockey. The "top down" model is the failure of many a business, ask the Tuscon Tilt. FP your theory is ambitious and optimistic but respectfully I don't support asking the other clubs like the Habs to throw millions of ice hockey money into a desert sinkhole. Business is simple: let the teams go where the demand is. A whole lot of Hamilton kids play every day after school. Let Arizona continue to build from the bottom up, the Sundogs are doing well, maybe they could revive their EHCL team as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 The "top down" model is the failure of many a business, ask the Tuscon Tilt. FP your theory is ambitious and optimistic but respectfully I don't support asking the other clubs like the Habs to throw millions of ice hockey money into a desert sinkhole. Business is simple: let the teams go where the demand is. A whole lot of Hamilton kids play every day after school. Let Arizona continue to build from the bottom up, the Sundogs are doing well, maybe they could revive their EHCL team as well? Yeah, obviously the biggest problem with letting the seed struggle to take root is that with the limited revenue sharing the league has, profitable teams are the ones who have to pay for the "water." That's why I say keeping the team in Phoenix should only be done if the league is truly serious about keeping the team there for the long run. It's one thing to pour money into a team only to eventually lose it, it's another thing to pour money into it and see it become successful. Of course, there is always the possibility the hockey seed in the desert will die no matter what. As for building from the bottom up, I can say that doesn't work very well for hockey in the states, at least here in Ohio. There have been at least half a dozen minor league teams in Ohio, but hockey was still very small until the Jackets came. That's when junior hockey exploded and the number of high school teams started increasing every year. None of that happens without an NHL team. Americans, for the most part I think, need a top level team to even think about giving hockey a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 might have another saga going on as it appears that Len Barrie will not be able to buy out Oren Koules part of the Tampa Bay Lightning... http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/281517.html in french Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm amazed that Betteman has such support that Balsillie was voted down unanimously...you know he's promised those guys a boatload to get that level of support. There is not one thing wrong with Balsillie, his money, his character, etc...certainly, he's no worse then many members of the NHL Board of Governers. I'm shocked that other owners are sitting back while Moyes was getting the shaft. There are a number of them that could be in the same boat and told they can't sell their franchise for the highest bid...it's CRAZY. Umm, maybe I'm confused but I dont beleive that Bettman has as much support as it would appear. The vote might have been unanimous 26-0 to reject Balsillie as an owner but last time I checked there was 30 teams. Does anybody know who the 4 owners are that didnt participate in the vote? Who are the 4 owners who wont publicly admit that they want another Canadian team that actually generates profits? I bet there are other owners too but they just arent willing to go against the flow of the majority. It will be absolutely disgusting if the judge doesnt award the Coyotes to Balsillie. Does anyone else remember when the govt was trying to sell off an old under ground mine? As it turned out the Hells Angels were the highest bidders. Needless to say the govt was no longer interested in selling the mine. Case and point is that in a public auction the highest bid is always the winning bid. If you dont want to sell to the highest bidder than whatever is being sold cant be sold to another party. Thats a big lawsuit waiting to happen in which the sellers would never win. If the NHL is an exclusive club that you need the NHL's permission to join than it simply cant be a public auction, like it is. Bettman and the other NHL owners are just beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 Umm, maybe I'm confused but I dont beleive that Bettman has as much support as it would appear. The vote might have been unanimous 26-0 to reject Balsillie as an owner but last time I checked there was 30 teams. Does anybody know who the 4 owners are that didnt participate in the vote? Who are the 4 owners who wont publicly admit that they want another Canadian team that actually generates profits? I bet there are other owners too but they just arent willing to go against the flow of the majority. It will be absolutely disgusting if the judge doesnt award the Coyotes to Balsillie. Does anyone else remember when the govt was trying to sell off an old under ground mine? As it turned out the Hells Angels were the highest bidders. Needless to say the govt was no longer interested in selling the mine. Case and point is that in a public auction the highest bid is always the winning bid. If you dont want to sell to the highest bidder than whatever is being sold cant be sold to another party. Thats a big lawsuit waiting to happen in which the sellers would never win. If the NHL is an exclusive club that you need the NHL's permission to join than it simply cant be a public auction, like it is. Bettman and the other NHL owners are just beat. I agree. The Phoenix Coyotes should be sold to the Hell's Angels! Imagine the pre-game shows! Anyway the Balsillie legal team is stepping up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromage Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Case and point is that in a public auction the highest bid is always the winning bid. If you dont want to sell to the highest bidder than whatever is being sold cant be sold to another party. Thats a big lawsuit waiting to happen in which the sellers would never win. Was it really a public auction? Or was the current owner of the Yotes just entertaining offers? Because an owner can sell to whoever at whatever price he wants, unless it is up for auction. Edited September 5, 2009 by fromage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Its definitely an auction and its a public auction that anyone can participate in. If it wasnt a public auction then Balsillie would have never been allowed to participate, which would be legal if it was a private auction. "The antitrust issue in this case is rather simple," said Kessler. "It's open and shut. If it's a veto, it's illegal." The more interesting issue to Kessler is the fact the NHL is a bidder, saying it has disqualified another bidder (Balsillie) from bidding. That's a conflict of interest, he claims. "I think it's very important to establish that leagues are subject to the law like everybody else." I'm pretty sure an anti trust case would be even simpler. i.e. if Balsillie is the highest bidder and doesnt get it, thats ilegal. Just like what Kessler says about the NHL being a bidder and susceptible to the same laws everybody else is. Bettman can think being a NHL owner is a private elite club that you need permission to join, but the law is that anybody who has the money can buy a team an join their club. Also the NHL cant throw out higher bids so their own bid can win. Would it ever be a riot if the other bid pulls out leaving just Balsillie and the NHLs bid. There would be no way Balsillie wouldnt get the team. Sure the NHL could tie Balsillie up in court for many years but they would have zero chance in winning anything and would be wasting their own time and money trying to stop it. The NHL would end up having to reimburse Balsillie for all his legal fees + any punitive damages he goes for. Balsillie should call up his ex employee and tell him that he would allow the Blackberries to play 5 games a year in Saskatchewan if they withdraw their bid now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Was it really a public auction? Or was the current owner of the Yotes just entertaining offers? Because an owner can sell to whoever at whatever price he wants, unless it is up for auction. This isn't Christie's or Sotheby's, it's a bankruptcy proceeding. There's no bid numbers and a bunch of guys running around on the floor between bidders. This is, in fact, a private auction, which may or may not include Balsillie because of the conditions he's placed on his offer: the direct payment to Moyes and Gretzky and the move to Hamilton for this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Is Balsillie planning on paying back Coyote season ticket holders if he succeeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 well, they would be considered unsecured creditors, so they'd be pretty low on the totem pole, unless the league decided to kick into the pot themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Is Balsillie planning on paying back Coyote season ticket holders if he succeeds? are there any? I have heard they can't sell anybody any tickets and that the sales staff are all quitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=290588 If both bids are rejected, then who owns the team? Didn't the previous owner declared bankruptcy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=290588 If both bids are rejected, then who owns the team? Didn't the previous owner declared bankruptcy? Yeah Jean that's a new wrinkle for sure... Sounds like maybe the judge is giving himself some room. Habs fans -- remember next time you pay $500 bucks to take your family to a game, you're helping subsidize Bettman's stubborn power trip. These are difficult economic times and the league can't afford to turn down an offer that will take ice hockey out of this desert sinkhole for chrissakes. Hope the judge makes a sensible decision and spells it out so Bettman won't try to tie up the move in appeals. Hamilton - Toronto would be a great rivalry, as the testimony went it's expected Hamilton could be 5th most-profitable franchise in the league. (Next maybe Nashville goes to Quebec City?) Go Jim Go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 The Coyotes are not for sale, wtf, hows that an option stupid judge, he cant rule that if the owner wants to sell it, then its for sale ffs. Who does the judge think he is to say the owner cant sell it. Thats just absurd but not quite as absurd as this: Each lawyer managed to pluck some interesting admissions from those on the witness stand -- PSE economic expert Andrew Zimbalast conceded that an expansion team could work in Glendale (with a US$15-million yearly subsidy from the city) while NHL experts Franklin Fisher and Michael Rabkoch each admitted that a team in Hamilton, where Balsillie wants to move the Coyotes, would rank in the top five in league revenues by their calculations. Like instantly too, and yet Bettman still wont allow it. :puke: No really, I'm pretty sure its a public auction and anyone of us could bid on the Coyotes if they had the financing: Baum reaffirmed the offers from the two sides at the outset of Thursday's hearing and asked the court if there was any other bids to be considered in the auction. No one else stepped forward. Did the other bid drop out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 This is going to go on for years... If Balsillie wins then the NHL fights it saying it's against their charter...and they'll do it with the support of the NFL, NBA and MLB who all want to maintain control of who can/can't own a team. And the major sports leagues SHOULD be able to maintain some level of control within reasonable limits...which I think they're exceeding. If the NHL wins they'll be facing anti-trust lawsuits...which I'm not sure they can defeat. I'm surprised the other major leagues haven't called Betteman and told him to just back the hell down and let the guy in...these court battles are likely going to screw up ALL league constitutions in a big way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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