Chris Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Yea, the blender is out for sure. I wouldn't mind seeing Carle and Leach instead of MAB, maybe he'll get the message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) I wouldn't worry too much about the cap. Plekanec, if he's part of the long term plan, will be signed for the money he's making now plus a little extra that will come off Mara's salary. Price will be signed for about what he's making now, while Halak will get a raise (and possibly be traded). Carle would replace Mara on the blueline for next year for less than half the cost. It is troubling to look at our player development in the past four years (the Lever years, and 3 out of the 4 of them were the Carbo years in the NHL). In 2005, Plekanec, Higgins and Komisarek became NHLers. Obviously something has happened with Higgins (probably mainly due to his injury problems), but those are 3 players that could legitimately be looked as top six forwards/top 4 D. Since then, it's been dry, with only 2 goalies to emerge in significant roles and then Andrei Kostitsyn, who has had major issues and hasn't developed into the first line guy we projected him as. With Latendresse, Sergei Kostitsyn, and Ryan O'Byrne having significant ups and downs... we've been set back big time. Precisely. Even Higgins, it's always been up in the air as to whether he's a bona fide top-6er. He seems to be a guy who looks like a top-6 forward for stretches but really levels out as an elite third-liner. Then again, your list omits Streit and maybe Grabovski. Nonetheless, compare it with almost any other team and you realize it's been pathetic. I don't know why the media doesn't talk about this more. When it comes to understanding the Gainey years, including the summer UFA spree, nothing is more fundamental than this. Edited November 12, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Precisely. Even Higgins, it's always been up in the air as to whether he's a bona fide top-6er. He seems to be a guy who looks like a top-6 forward for stretches but really levels out as an elite third-liner. Then again, your list omits Streit and maybe Grabovski. Nonetheless, compare it with almost any other team and you realize it's been pathetic. I don't know why the media doesn't talk about this more. When it comes to understanding the Gainey years, including the summer UFA spree, nothing is more fundamental than this. Streit didn't need any developing, he just needed to get used to North America. It'd be like giving the Leafs credit for Gustavsson being good. Streit was a good player when we got him, that's precisely why we drafted him. Fair point on Grabovski, he did indeed come up in that same time frame. But he got out of the system probably right in time to flourish. I wonder how he would've handled last year in Montreal... I'd wager he wouldn't have scored 20+ goals and earned a multi-million dollar contract. If anything, Streit and Grabovski shows that we have scouts with a keen eye for talent. So the seperation is in the development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 we have scouts with a keen eye for talent. So the seperation is in the development. Gainey seems to agree with this assessment. Hence the firing of the entire coaching infrastructure behind the aborted rebuild - and the retention of the scouting staff. What gives me hope in all of this is that Bob himself seems to have diagnosed the fundamental problem, and well in advance of the rest of us (2007). This suggests that he knows what he's doing and offers some hope for the prospects of his surrepetitious "rebuild" going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yea, good posts, i really liked last years draft and would be disappointed if 4 of those guys didn't turn out to be goog NHl'ers. The top 2 picks werre great, I like Atsvin and Bennet, i haven't got to watch any college hockey this year yet, but i'm hoping to watch Michigan and N.Dakota a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafikz Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I'm guessing you meant Latendresse - Lapierre - White, or has Martin switched both to their off-side? Anyways. Pyatt on the 2nd line. Not even Stewart and Chipchura got that chance. I hope they get the message. I'm happy to not see any of them on the 2nd line. They have nothing to do there. D'Ago might worth a shot though. If we could have him on the same streak as last season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronthab Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, a 5-year-plan basically means bringing along young players. E.g., in 5 years Subban will be a Montreal Canadien (and he'd better be a top-4 defenceman by that point; my hope is that he comes in as Hamrlik's replacement and really starts coming into his own by 2014). Avtsin may be a factor. Leblanc will be emerging. Price, Pacioretty and D'Agostini will be hitting their prime. Latendresse will have definitively have answered the question of whether he has any hope of being a top-6 forward. Maxwell may be a second-line C. And new players will have been added into the mix. The point is that most of these players will be CHEAP, because young. The cap isn't an issue if you're rebuilding with youth. The current core is, according to this theory, basically there to keep the team competitive while Gainey quietly tries to acquire kids and bring them along. In 5 years, Gomez and Gionta will be disposable, because they'll be on the downside and replaceable by (cheaper) talent developed from within. This is what *should* have happened with the late unlamented core, but of course didn't. Our cap problems will centre around veterans and young veterans who emerge too soon *within* that five-year window. Plekanec and Price, for instance. But I'm not sure we need to slit our wrists over that just yet. Lots of teams just manage tight cap room. Let's see what Gainey does rather than just assume we'll lose everybody. As for the general theory of a "rebuild in disguise," I have no evidence for this hypothesis except the revelation by Pierre Boivin that Gainey intended to fire the Hamilton coaching staff as early as 2007, and the length of the contracts of the current core. As I said before, that Bob wanted to fire Lever et al. back then suggests strongly to me that Gainey recognized quite early on that something had gone wrong with player development. When he blew up the team this summer, it was a definitive admission that the rebuild had failed. But realistically he could not ask the fans to wait another five years, so he's tried to buy time with the current group. Hence the 4-5 year contracts he doled out. You can read those contract terms as a tacit prediction of how long it will take Gainey to replace those guys with young players developed from within. I may be giving Bob too much credit for deviousness here. But my little theory does offer SOME hope that he hasn't just lost the plot, as Wamsley accuses him of doing. As I say, if Bob starts dealing away more young players/picks for veterans, then we'll know definitively that he *has* lost the plot. I think your read of this excellent and dedicated hockey mind is good. One can do only what one can do. We made moves to make a run that might have worked out, but after injuries just couldn't and we are not a fan base that allows tanking for three years to get a shot at franchise draftees. The Montreal path to success is a harder one. We actually want to see a HOCKEY game when we tune in; and we want our team to win. We don't and should not allow our team to bottom feed for draft gains. The game is hockey, and we want our team to play. I have been very pleased with the excellent shot Mr G prepared for us and the great hopes he inspired. He is now contintuing his careful, thoughtful program to give us a team that can compete today and give hope for tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) Disgusted 75%? Yep, this ain't easy! It's probably easy to list 75 individual reasons whey we are in this mess. Just to illustate I think I'll type off 10 reasons as fast as I can without thinking about it or stopping. Here goes: 1) Markov injury 2) No secondary scoring 3) O'Byrne injury 4) Laraque isn't around when we face goon squad enemy - Moen can't do it all and we need him on the ice 5) Bergeron has been a pylon in many ways, the worst being that he's cost us game points. 6) Chemistry and learning the new players - adjustment 7) Transistion game and neutral zone control (not getting squeezed out or offside) is a fail-even with Cammalleri, Gionta and Gomez. There's 7. I couldn't get to 10. I started to stop and think about number 8. Pretty sad I can spiel 7 off that quick. Anyone wanna try to continue with number 8. WE'D BETTER WIN TONIGHT! It's Legace right? Magic number for playoffs = Habs must play the rest of the season with a .597 record. (Based on 92 point cutoff since the lockout. Sometimes it's been 93 or 94 which makes the number potentially worse) Can we go .597? I highly highly doubt it. Edited November 17, 2009 by Athlétique.Canadien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Can we go .597? I highly highly doubt it. That's six more wins than losses - not counting OT loss points. In other words, if we go on a six game win streak (or six more wins than losses) and then go .500 the rest of the way, we'll have 94 points. Or a three-game win streak (or three more wins than losses) and go 3 games under .500 with 6 OT points. Let's start to think about being nervous at 40 games when there's far less time to work with. Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 That's six more wins than losses - not counting OT loss points. In other words, if we go on a six game win streak (or six more wins than losses) and then go .500 the rest of the way, we'll have 94 points. Or a three-game win streak (or three more wins than losses) and go 3 games under .500 with 6 OT points. Let's start to think about being nervous at 40 games when there's far less time to work with. Sheesh. I think it's time to be worried. Not panicking, but concerned...it's time to furrow brows and dig in, not time to throw ourselves off bridges. Save that for Game 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Gionta out indefinitely with a foot fracture. Count me in as puking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Gionta out indefinitely with a foot fracture. Count me in as puking. LOL Wasnt one of Gainey's M.O. this summer to get guys who were never injured? Anyways. I hope the Habs dont answer the loss of an scorer and the further depletion of our offense by calling up more grinders! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK1 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 LOL Wasnt one of Gainey's M.O. this summer to get guys who were never injured? Anyways. I hope the Habs dont answer the loss of an scorer and the further depletion of our offense by calling up more grinders! I think this pretty much forces BG's hand to bring up SK does it not?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 LOL Wasnt one of Gainey's M.O. this summer to get guys who were never injured? Anyways. I hope the Habs dont answer the loss of an scorer and the further depletion of our offense by calling up more grinders! You almost manage to make it sound like Gainey's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 You almost manage to make it sound like Gainey's fault. I just pointed out the irony of Gainey prioritizing resilient players in his summer acquisitions and 2 of them end up gone long term. I didnt pass any judgment, not even implied. All in your head buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 On the bright side, if we finish in the bottom five due to injuries, it may get our franchise back on track (e.g. stick a Taylor Hall in the line up, get healthy and try again). When you actually have a bottom five team, it's not much consolation, but when you really have a middle-of-the-pack team, adding a cheap, 1st line player to the line up is huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Small point to the Panic Crew: I think we're .500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I hope the Moen and Gomez injuries aren't too long term or severe. Maybe now Sergei get his call. O'Byrne coming back is the silver lining. I hope we aren't in any real extra trouble. Sigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 I hope the Moen and Gomez injuries aren't too long term or severe. Maybe now Sergei get his call. O'Byrne coming back is the silver lining. I hope we aren't in any real extra trouble. Sigh Why would they call up Sergei, when you it is MUCH more valuable having Laraque and Chipchura in the lineup. How many 3rd/4th liners does one team need. Personelly, I'd like to keep Pyatt and White up (at least while they keep playing with some heart), and see th habs try and waive Laraque and see if they can get a draft pick for Chipchura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Why would they call up Sergei, when you it is MUCH more valuable having Laraque and Chipchura in the lineup. How many 3rd/4th liners does one team need. Personelly, I'd like to keep Pyatt and White up (at least while they keep playing with some heart), and see th habs try and waive Laraque and see if they can get a draft pick for Chipchura. Pyatt and White are adding great value right now. They bring heart, energy and the occasional heads-up play, which is exactly the shot in the arm call-ups are supposed to bring. Nice to see our pathetic 'system' actually giving us something good. For once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Pyatt and White are adding great value right now. They bring heart, energy and the occasional heads-up play, which is exactly the shot in the arm call-ups are supposed to bring. Nice to see our pathetic 'system' actually giving us something good. For once. Heh, Pyatt was a Ranger prospect until this year. And White only had one year of 3rd line duty in Hamilton last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Well with all the people who were thrilled about Martin and the system he was bringing on, can you please tell me how the habs have improved???? I hated the signing, said so at the time and kept reading of the great system he would bring. Can somebody please tell me what the system is??? We have ONE regulation win for cripes sake!!!! I think the Leafs now have more wins in regulation!!! Defensively we still suck!! Yes Markov is gone and unfortunately went down in the first game. However, didn't Martin keep on going on how how he wanted a no name six man defence that played a good system??? What is the system he is trying to institute, having 5 guys running around like chickens with their head cut off and leaving their goalies hanging out to dry??????? Other then Hamrlik some nights (who looked bad tonight as well), this defence has looked terrible. There is no system. Yes its early, but this team's defence had only played well enough to win ONE game in regulation for god's sake. Offensively, we have one line creating chances - but really not being able to finish - haven't we seen this show before???? Pleks putting on a one man show without really any support and despite playing harder on a more consistent basis then Gomez, he really gets no one to play with, other then the 2nd line PP. As usual, we have a coach who instead of being able to get more out of his young guys, and other then Pleks, the other three guys (Kosty, Lats and Laps) that needed to progress have regressed, like all of our young players have during the past few years. Why the hell can't this team develop their young talent????? Why have the Kosty brother been Martin's whipping boys, when for most of the season, Lats, Laps, Pacs and that poor excuse of a pylon Bergeron for the most part keep getting regular shifts???? Yes Lats and Laps, had some time reduced tonight to around 5-6 minutes, but they have sucked most of the year. And Bergeron makes Brisbois look like Doug Harvey. It is mind boggling to me that Kosty has seemed to take the brunt of Martin's and the media's wrath. There are some idiots who wanted Lapierre named captain for cripes sake???? IMO, Pax, should be sent down otherwise the habs are going to ruin him like they probably have ruined Lats. Pax needs a chance to gain confidence as a goal scorer and dominate at some level, so he plays with more confidence. Yes he has played better, but only good enough to be a 3rd/4th liner. I know this is going on to a long rant after another crappy game, but, IMO, the habs should go with the following lineup: Cams-Pleks-Giontta Lats - Gomez- Kostitsyn Moen Metro - White Pyatt- Lapierre- Bergeron Hamrlik Spacek Carle Mara Gorges Leach While neither goalie has been consistent, I don't think you can really blame the goalies this year, let them play until they lose. Keep Bergeron as a PP specialist and occasional role on the 4th line. If Leach and Carle don't work, give Belle another chance. Let Weber and Subban develop in Hamilton. Up front, I think White and Pyatt have looked alright, but eventually the adrenaline will probably wind down, and their play will probably drop off, if and when that happen give some of the other guys in Hamilton a shot, but keep Pax in the AHL until he starts producing consistently for at least a month. I know that some may argue that we don't have the depth to send Pax down, but if we want him to progress, i think he needs to be in an environment where he can score. The guy really has not scored much at the AHL or NHL level. Give someone else in Hamilton a chance to come up and really the best bet there is Sergei, yes he has acted like a spoilt brat, but really there was no reason for Martin to single him out as a whipping boy. I think in another week or two, if he is producing, he should be brought up. If we make a trade we need to pick up some secondary scoring. My biggest fear is the habs are going to give away a guy like Kosty for a bag of pucks. While I love effort Metro and Moen have given. You can't expect Metro to continue scoring by taking shots from behind the net and we are NOT going to succeed this year long term, if Metro is going to be on the 2nd PP unit. At the end of the day though, it does't matter who we have in the lineup, we need the coach to start getting through an motivating the players. I'd also like to see the so-called system Martin was supposed to bring in. you sound like a guy who doesn't know who Andrei Markov is. just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Pyatt and White are adding great value right now. They bring heart, energy and the occasional heads-up play, which is exactly the shot in the arm call-ups are supposed to bring. Nice to see our pathetic 'system' actually giving us something good. For once. our pathetic system is not pathetic. "something happened". I don't know what. but something happened. Komi, Higgins, S. Kost, A. Kost, Price, Gorges, Latendresse, Lapierre were all "amazing" in 07-08 suddenly in 08-09, they become crap in the 2nd half of the season. and our system turns out to be "pathetic"?!! At least, Price and Gorges seem to have recovered, and A. Kost seems to be on his way back. Higgins looks like a hobo. Komi is doing not so great (and I'm pretty glad about it) S. Kost seems to have recovered, he just got a shit attitude, as always. Lats and Laps seem to have sunk lower, cause at the end of last season, they were quite good at times with Kosto... HOWEVER, they always seem to start slowly. Last season we were calling them the two most improved players over the season. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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