Habs put Halak on the market

[ForumGhost]

I think he's worth a lot. He's a hot, young goalie who dominated the AHL and performed will in the NHL. If he were on a team that didn't have a young goalie about to make an impact, he would be what Pavelec is to Atlanta, Rask is to Boston and Price is to us.

[Sir_Boagalott]

No clue why Kozed is being repeatedly slammed for his comments in this thread. I fully agree with him. Hard to beleive I'm wrong.

You still dont understand the parallel between the Gomez and Kovalev deals?

When a team wants to dump a player with a huge contract for financial purposes, the list of potential trade candidates is shrunk down. Those potential suitors come into the trade talks with extra leverage: financial leverage. That what makes the Gomez and Kovalev trades similar. Gainey had the leverage of being about the only GM who'd talk to NYR for either player. How hard a concept is it to grasp?!

You should list Tangs in the same scenario. The Flames were desperate to dump his salary. I always said paying a 1st and a 2nd for a player making 5+ mil who is in his teams dog house is a high price for a 1 year rental. Bob could have kept those 2 picks and signed him during last summer.

Ironically, who was involed in the trade previous to Kovy between Bob and Sather? (which probably dates back to Dallas). I've got a funny feeling that Bob helped out Sather in the trade previous to Kovy, so Sather helped out Bob with Kovy, and then Bob returned the favour by taking Gomez. Also regarding the Kovy trade is you have to remember Kovy was slumping big time. The NYR Kovy was covered a lot differently by the other teams than the Habs Kovy. Kovy wasnt much of a sniper with NYR like he was with the Habs.

The Halak is on the market comment is probably just Bob announcing Halaks availability to see if any GM's have any real interest. I can see Bob just moving him for the sake of moving him. That could be a colossal mistake.

[Habsy]

That Tanguay deal has been analyzed to death. Everybody's a great GM with hindsight. Bob went for it, after finishing 1st in conference the year before. We all know what happened in the end.

[KoZed]

No clue why Kozed is being repeatedly slammed for his comments in this thread. I fully agree with him. Hard to beleive I'm wrong.  

Because they're missing the forest for the trees, so desperately trying to defend Gainey and his trades they cant see I'm talking about something totally different altogether. Its annoying at first, but when you accept that no matter how obvious and simple you'll expose your point people still won't see it, it just becomes perversely hilarious. 

[habs rule]

Because they're missing the forest for the trees, so desperately trying to defend Gainey and his trades they cant see I'm talking about something totally different altogether. Its annoying at first, but when you accept that no matter how obvious and simple you'll expose your point people still won't see it, it just becomes perversely hilarious. 

kozed why do you choose to ridicule those who do not agree with you? There a lot of us who disagree with your analysis of these trades and Bob. It is simply a discussion and an exchange of ideas. I happen to think that fanpuck is right on the nose. Hind site is great but at least remember all the aspects of the deal at the time.

As to the Halak is up for trade, Bob has never done this. He has never announced that someone is on the market. And I highly doubt he did this time. I recall last year how pissed off he was at Brian Lawton for running his mouth about who was being discussed as trade for lecavelier. Bob is well know to be the most cards to the chest, tell no one anything in the league so again i dismiss this a reporter had a slow day and everyone believes that halak will be traded so lets say he in on the market.

This is the new me no confrontation and attacking. Gonna be more like colin the great peacekeeper :hlogo: :lol:

[Colin]

This is the new me no confrontation and attacking. Gonna be more like colin the great peacekeeper :hlogo: :lol:

Oy vey.

[rafikz]

Just a rumor:

Frank Seravalli of the Philadelphia Daily News: The Flyers might make a call to the Montreal Canadiens, as Jaroslav Halak is available. He’s at a respectable number of $775,000 and could be a fill in while Emery is out, and could even take over the #1 in Philadelphia. One problem for the Flyers would be that it would cost them a Top 6 forward. Also, when Emery returns, they would have 3 NHL caliber goalies on their roster.

Edited December 13, 2009 by rafikz

[Colin]

Just a rumor:

They would have 3 NHL goalies on their roster? Have they watched Boucher play lately?

[rafikz]

They would have 3 NHL goalies on their roster? Have they watched Boucher play lately?

My reaction exactly

Halak and Emery, check

WTF is that 3rd NHL goalie?

[Trizzak]

Because they're missing the forest for the trees, so desperately trying to defend Gainey and his trades they cant see I'm talking about something totally different altogether. Its annoying at first, but when you accept that no matter how obvious and simple you'll expose your point people still won't see it, it just becomes perversely hilarious.

From what I'm getting out of it, you're wanting a different GM to make trades for Montreal. You're thinking Gainey will trade Halak for a downgrade because he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade.

And apparently you're taking no comfort from part of the rumour being that a top 6 forward will have to come our way in order for Halak to be traded.

[KoZed]

From what I'm getting out of it, you're wanting a different GM to make trades for Montreal. You're thinking Gainey will trade Halak for a downgrade because he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade.

I think Gainey will trade for a downgrade and/or pick less because I think he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade (which isnt necessarily a better player; but a more useful player than Halak as a backup) and more because that's simply his trading pattern. I think the odds are higher that Gainey wants a better backup than Sanford and trades Halak for one; than that Gainey trusts Sanford and trades Halak for a top 6 forward. 

And apparently you're taking no comfort from part of the rumour being that a top 6 forward will have to come our way in order for Halak to be traded.

The only 2 top 6 forwards Philly has with salary comparable to Halak are JvR and Giroux. I dont see Philly parting with a kid as promising and typically "Flyers" as JvR; so that leaves Giroux, who'd actually fit the description I gave earlier of what we lack in the system (high-hockey sense playmakers like Plex), but being a 2006 draft pick from the Q and the Habs having chose David Fischer over him, odds are the Habs' dont have a high opinion of Giroux. Instead, I'd see Gainey asks for Blair Betts, because he's a big C who can't score. 

[Trizzak]

The only 2 top 6 forwards Philly has with salary comparable to Halak are JvR and Giroux. I dont see Philly parting with a kid as promising and typically "Flyers" as JvR; so that leaves Giroux, who'd actually fit the description I gave earlier of what we lack in the system (high-hockey sense playmakers like Plex), but being a 2006 draft pick from the Q and the Habs having chose David Fischer over him, odds are the Habs' dont have a high opinion of Giroux. Instead, I'd see Gainey asks for Blair Betts, because he's a big C who can't score.

Well the initial rumour was that Halak was on the market for a top 6 forward. The Philly report has come out after the fact, but there's no reason to limit it to one team.

As for Gainey not being interested in a player he didn't pick, I don't really see the relation. It's not Fischer on the block for a top 6 forward, it's Halak.

[lazy26]

I think Gainey will trade for a downgrade and/or pick less because I think he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade (which isnt necessarily a better player; but a more useful player than Halak as a backup) and more because that's simply his trading pattern. I think the odds are higher that Gainey wants a better backup than Sanford and trades Halak for one; than that Gainey trusts Sanford and trades Halak for a top 6 forward. 

The only 2 top 6 forwards Philly has with salary comparable to Halak are JvR and Giroux. I dont see Philly parting with a kid as promising and typically "Flyers" as JvR; so that leaves Giroux, who'd actually fit the description I gave earlier of what we lack in the system (high-hockey sense playmakers like Plex), but being a 2006 draft pick from the Q and the Habs having chose David Fischer over him, odds are the Habs' dont have a high opinion of Giroux. Instead, I'd see Gainey asks for Blair Betts, because he's a big C who can't score. 

lol. Do I detect cynicism?

Keep in mind that Montreal was focused on stocking up on D when they picked Fischer. I know Timmins loves to state that they pick BPA but that isn't to say that they didn't have their eye on Giroux at some point. That being said, it's difficult to imagine what need Gainey is prioritizing... Does he want that elusive big centre to replace Plex if he walks, or will he go with a complementary scoring winger?

[KoZed]

Well the initial rumour was that Halak was on the market for a top 6 forward. The Philly report has come out after the fact, but there's no reason to limit it to one team.

As for Gainey not being interested in a player he didn't pick, I don't really see the relation. It's not Fischer on the block for a top 6 forward, it's Halak.

lol. Do I detect cynicism?

Keep in mind that Montreal was focused on stocking up on D when they picked Fischer. I know Timmins loves to state that they pick BPA but that isn't to say that they didn't have their eye on Giroux at some point. That being said, it's difficult to imagine what need Gainey is prioritizing... Does he want that elusive big centre to replace Plex if he walks, or will he go with a complementary scoring winger?

Looking at who the Habs passed on to pick Fischer (Giroux, Berglund, Foligno, Kulemin, Lucic twice) I pray they picked Fischer because he was a D and not the BPA on their list. Even if the argument to stock up on D's could be make, when you pick for needs over BPA, it's usually with a short-term time frame in mind. Fischer is light-years away from the NHL, which makes the needs-based pick pointless. With time they'd have plenty of time to stock up on D's anyways.

Sadly, even if Fischer was picked based on need, it still meant he was rated fairly similar to everyone available at the time. So either the Habs overrated him or underrated the other guys available; or a mixture of both. Which is what makes me say it'd lower the odds of them trading an asset like Halak for a guy that was right there for them at 20 in 2006. It'd be an indirect, partial admittance that they they didnt make the right pick in Fischer. 

As for who Gainey would want; I think they got Pouliot because they like his potential to become that big C. It was one of the reason they wanted him so much in 2005. I mentionned Bletts because given his small salary, big size and game style I think he'd be a player Gainey & Martin would lean for much more than a guy like Giroux. I think a big checking C is a piece of their puzzle they're still looking to find. I also think we'd need that; but I also think our weak offense (26th in the league) is lacking creative players. Giroux is in the mold of Plex and Sergei K, versatile players who can read the play and generate offense with anyone in any situation. It's a lacking dimension of our offense.  

[habs rule]

just so you know Kozed the meds remark was a joke in response to Jackp saying being on Viagra was helping him be positive now why don't you settle down

[ForumGhost]

Well, this thread got lame.

[Sir_Boagalott]

From what I'm getting out of it, you're wanting a different GM to make trades for Montreal. You're thinking Gainey will trade Halak for a downgrade because he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade.

I think you and the others are taking him to literally.

I think Gainey will trade for a downgrade and/or pick less because I think he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade (which isnt necessarily a better player

OK, maybe not.

I agree that historically from his past trades that Bob typically looses the trade. I've been sayi g this for years: Bob is way to conservative. Bob is afraid to take the big risk. Big risks can be dangerous, but with big risks comes big rewards. Bobs just to afraid at taking a risk that backfires and makes him look silly. Look at Plex and AKosts, their contracts will be up soon. I said in the off season last year that Bob should sign them long term or the Habs will loose them. The way Plex is playing so far he could be getting 5 mil+/yr (he' might even want Cammy cash if he gets more pts) so will the Habs be able to afford him? Its bizarre too because Bob doesnt want to trade Plex or AKosts because he knows their potential and at the same time he refuses to commit to them with long term contracts.

I wonder if he talked with Gui aboot contracts before he was traded. Knowing Bob I would bet the farm thats a big no, and he definitely should have. Sure it might not have looked like Latendernes was going to be the big top 6 power forward they were hoping for but he was still a decent 3rd line guy who wanted to be in Montreal. If Bob could have signed Lats to a long term cheap contract than he probably should have. The exact same thing for Higgs too. Think aboot it. If Bob had signed Lats, Higgs, and Laps to 5 yr contracts at 1-1.5 mil/yr the Habs would have a 4.5 mil/yr 3rd line that would probably be 1 of the best 3rd lines in the NHL and most likely the cheapest to boot.

Now think if Plex and AKosts had been signed long term at 3 mil/yr for 6+ yrs and SKosts at 2 they have a 2nd line at 8 mil, which again would be 1 of the best 2nd lines in the NHL and again most likely the cheapest.

Thats 12.5 mil for a 2nd and 3rd lines who were all drafted and developed by the Habs. None of this happened, but it could have.

This isnt hind sight, I've been saying things like this for a long time and with trades since the day they happened.

P.S. most likely now out of the Halak trade mix: Philadelphia Signed goaltender John Grahame to a minor-league contract.

[dlbalr]

I think Gainey will trade for a downgrade and/or pick less because I think he's incapable of trading Halak for an upgrade (which isnt necessarily a better player; but a more useful player than Halak as a backup) and more because that's simply his trading pattern.

I agree that it may be difficult to trade for an upgrade simply because goalies generally have next to no value on the market. That's not a shot at Gainey, but moreso a look at the situation over the past few years. It's very rare that we see a top-6 forward be moved for a goalie, even more rare a cheap top-6 forward. Sure, Halak's young and has potential, but so did Miikka Kiprusoff and he was only worth a 2nd rounder at the time he was moved to Calgary.

Giroux would be nice to get, one rumour (and considering the source, I don't believe it for a second) has the Flyers actually offering him for Halak, but I don't see the Habs being able to get that much. If Halak moves, it'll most likely be for a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick, or a prospect.

As for Grahame, to emphasize this, he has not signed with the Flyers but rather their AHL affiliate in Adirondack. If he's any good, then perhaps he's the short term solution but I wouldn't pull Philly out of the Halak mix just yet...if they're actually in it to begin with.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I think you and the others are taking him to literally.

OK, maybe not.

I agree that historically from his past trades that Bob typically looses the trade. I've been sayi g this for years: Bob is way to conservative. Bob is afraid to take the big risk. Big risks can be dangerous, but with big risks comes big rewards. Bobs just to afraid at taking a risk that backfires and makes him look silly. Look at Plex and AKosts, their contracts will be up soon. I said in the off season last year that Bob should sign them long term or the Habs will loose them. The way Plex is playing so far he could be getting 5 mil+/yr (he' might even want Cammy cash if he gets more pts) so will the Habs be able to afford him? Its bizarre too because Bob doesnt want to trade Plex or AKosts because he knows their potential and at the same time he refuses to commit to them with long term contracts.

I wonder if he talked with Gui aboot contracts before he was traded. Knowing Bob I would bet the farm thats a big no, and he definitely should have. Sure it might not have looked like Latendernes was going to be the big top 6 power forward they were hoping for but he was still a decent 3rd line guy who wanted to be in Montreal. If Bob could have signed Lats to a long term cheap contract than he probably should have. The exact same thing for Higgs too. Think aboot it. If Bob had signed Lats, Higgs, and Laps to 5 yr contracts at 1-1.5 mil/yr the Habs would have a 4.5 mil/yr 3rd line that would probably be 1 of the best 3rd lines in the NHL and most likely the cheapest to boot.

Now think if Plex and AKosts had been signed long term at 3 mil/yr for 6+ yrs and SKosts at 2 they have a 2nd line at 8 mil, which again would be 1 of the best 2nd lines in the NHL and again most likely the cheapest.

Thats 12.5 mil for a 2nd and 3rd lines who were all drafted and developed by the Habs. None of this happened, but it could have.

This isnt hind sight, I've been saying things like this for a long time and with trades since the day they happened.

P.S. most likely now out of the Halak trade mix: Philadelphia Signed goaltender John Grahame to a minor-league contract.

Gui said that Gainey had spoken with him about a contract and that the numbers and term advanced by the Habs were inadequate.

I think you are waaaaay too optimistic about the possibility of locking up young players. Higgins, Lats, Kostitsyn, etc., all KNOW - or knew - that they had the *potential* to develop into effective top-6 players. Why, then, would they sign long-term at low-to-middling numbers? Why would a Higgins, who two years ago was universally predicted to be a 'breakout' player, sign for $3 mil? He himself said he wanted to become a 40-40 guy. No one with that self-image is going to sign long-term for peanuts.

This is the sort of far-flown backseat GMing that has led Habs fans to seemingly conclude en masse that Gainey is a blithering idiot. In fact, I'm happy that Bob did not commit to players from our first, aborted rebuild. Most of them have turned out to be overpaid mediocrities (just as most of the UFAs from last season's are being exposed as expensive busts). The primary reason for critiquing Gainey, in my opinion, is not that he's "too conservative" or "always loses trades" (and by the way, both Lats for Pouilot and Ribeiro for Ninimaa were high-risk, high-reward deals of the sort he supposedly "never makes." Even the Gomez deal could be rated this way. And his blowing up of last season's team is the exact opposite of conservative general managing). No; the primary legitimate criticism of Gainey is that he has failed to develop elite talent from within. And perhaps that, thanks to his high-risk moves, he has committed to overpaying to too many players.

As for Halak, I don't think we will get a top-6 forward back, not because Gainey is a clown, but because Halak is not a proven number one goalie. The only way we get a really serious player back is either as part of a package, or a salary dump. A Radek Bonk type or a pick - these are more reasonable expectations.

[Chris]

Paired with the right players there can be a good return.

As i keep saying, the tweaking isn't done.

They need quality D help badly. Hamrlik would be wanted by many teams. A high end D prospect can come back.

Mara can be moved for a middle round pick.

The kosty bros can get you a young potential to p6 guy like a horton or similar type player. The habs need toughness badly.

Halak can get you something back.

Pleks would land you a 1st rounder.

[BTH]

Paired with the right players there can be a good return.

As i keep saying, the tweaking isn't done.

They need quality D help badly. Hamrlik would be wanted by many teams. A high end D prospect can come back.

Mara can be moved for a middle round pick.

The kosty bros can get you a young potential to p6 guy like a horton or similar type player. The habs need toughness badly.

Halak can get you something back.

Pleks would land you a 1st rounder.

Why do you say that we need D help badly and then suggest dumping Hamrlik and Mara?

The time to trade Hamrlik would be at the deadline.

I wouldn't trade Plekanec for a 1st rounder (unless it's a very high one). He seems to be one of our building blocks right now.

An ideal deadline would be acquiring a top 6 forward for Halak (/Halak + Sergei for upgrade on Sergei) + getting somebody like Alzner for Hamrlik.

We'd go into next season with a decent top 6, a younger D, and no Hamrlik contract. We'd be a playoff team at least.

[Habsy]

I agree it'd have to be a package, because like I've mentioned before, Halak alone doesn't get you much. Is it just me, or have the K brothers turned a corner, and now get IT? I'd rather hold on to them. I just feel they can combine for 50 goals, and play smart Martin/Muller hockey.

[JCPetit]

I would be surprised if Gainey made a big trade. You don't see much of them anymore in the NHL, because of the salary cap, of course.

I would not like to see Halak go (you're never too strong in the net), but since we probably will lose him at the end of the season, it makes sense to make a move.

IMO, he will be traded to a team in the western conference (Detroit, St. Louis or whatever) in exchange for a draft pick (at least 2nd round) or a promising youngster.

Edited December 14, 2009 by JCPetit

[Chris]

Because the D is emabarraslingly slow footed, turn over happy and are very soft on the puck. Hamrlik can land you good D prospect who can skate. I fully expect Carle, Weber or Subban (the only true person who can skate it out) to get a roster spot next to Gill next year. I belive they are all RD.

I would move Spacek back to the LD. Which would Make Gill, Markov and Spacek the LD. With Gorges a young Dman and hopefully someone via trade coming back.

I would also consider re singing MAB as a #7 Dman or 12th 13th forward, he's pretty handy when injuries arise.

I am simply saying the D needs to get younger, more mobile, better at passing and winning battles.

O'Byrne as i menytioned earlier is pretty much worthless on a good team.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Because the D is emabarraslingly slow footed, turn over happy and are very soft on the puck. Hamrlik can land you good D prospect who can skate. I fully expect Carle, Weber or Subban (the only true person who can skate it out) to get a roster spot next to Gill next year. I belive they are all RD.

I would move Spacek back to the LD. Which would Make Gill, Markov and Spacek the LD. With Gorges a young Dman and hopefully someone via trade coming back.

I would also consider re singing MAB as a #7 Dman or 12th 13th forward, he's pretty handy when injuries arise.

I am simply saying the D needs to get younger, more mobile, better at passing and winning battles.

O'Byrne as i menytioned earlier is pretty much worthless on a good team.

Well, I can't see Gainey dealing Hamrlik, who is an absolute rock on the blueline. Maybe Hammer will be dealt at next year's trading deadline. More likely Bob will try to re-sign him to a more manageable contract for two more years. Remember, Bob is rebuilding but it's a rebuild in disguise. He's not going to start shedding high-end players for picks.

(Why are so few fans fully appreciative of Hamrlik? He is one helluva hockey player).

Gainey probably feels we're in a reasonable position in terms of prospects at D anyway. (Remember 'long-term sustainability?') He's likely in the market for players who are either top-6 forwards now or have the potential to become this, given that our system seems decidely thin on this commodity. Which is not to say that I disagree that we could stand to be younger and faster on the blueline. I think, though, that once Markov rounds into form our ov erall defensive game will suddenly look lots better.

Edited December 14, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber