Our former good players not so good now.

[REV-G]

For me, I'm really disappointed in 3 former players, who I thought were quite good for us, probably core players for a period of time. Mike Komisarek seems to be getting worse. One Toronto writer, Damien Cox, said he thought Komisarek was probably now Toronto's sixth defenceman. I saw a replay of a fight he had recently and it looked like he was pounded. I can't understand what happened to him. Was he that bad when he was with us and did playing with Markov make him look better than he really was. In hindisight, sadly, I'm glad he's with Toronto and not us.

Next is Alex Kovalev. I hope no one tries to resign Alex. I like him, but his work ethic is getting worse, and it was never his strong point. Maybe he's just getting older and losing strength and stamina.

Finally, Chris Higgins. He seems to have disappeared. I thought he was a good second line player but after he was traded he seems to have dropped like a rock.

Were these guys really that bad or did they lose something when they left us?

[CoRvInA]

For me, I'm really disappointed in 3 former players, who I thought were quite good for us, probably core players for a period of time. Mike Komisarek seems to be getting worse. One Toronto writer, Damien Cox, said he thought Komisarek was probably now Toronto's sixth defenceman. I saw a replay of a fight he had recently and it looked like he was pounded. I can't understand what happened to him. Was he that bad when he was with us and did playing with Markov make him look better than he really was. In hindisight, sadly, I'm glad he's with Toronto and not us.

Next is Alex Kovalev. I hope no one tries to resign Alex. I like him, but his work ethic is getting worse, and it was never his strong point. Maybe he's just getting older and losing strength and stamina.

Finally, Chris Higgins. He seems to have disappeared. I thought he was a good second line player but after he was traded he seems to have dropped like a rock.

Were these guys really that bad or did they lose something when they left us?

-Kovy needs lots of positive feedback to succeed... he wont get none unless he changes his attitude or heads to the KHL (his problem is Father time)

-Komisarek has some inner demons so to speak to deal with... something is not right personally, family wise, or its the HABS GHOSTS haunting him at night

-Higgins.... until that F@^%$#@*&^% foot injury, he was deemed a 30+ goal a season top 6 forward... he's never been the same since

Edited December 13, 2010 by CoRvInA

[Wamsley01]

-Kovy needs lots of positive feedback to succeed... he wont get none unless he changes his attitude or heads to the KHL (his problem is Father time)

-Komisarek has some inner demons so to speak to deal with... something is not right personally, family wise, or its the HABS GHOSTS haunting him at night

-Higgins.... until that F@^%$#@*&^% foot injury, he was deemed a 30+ goal a season top 6 forward... he's never been the same since

Pure speculation and unprovable.

[Toronthab]

That's my future captain you're talking about he said very sheepishly.

I thougnt Higgy as the real deal. Que passa?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Congrats on a very interesting question.

Kovalev is probably the easiest to explain...a combination of the player's innate nature (moody, inconsistent) and physical decline.

Komisarek? It's probably too pat an answer - my chronology may even be wrong - but for me he was never the same after the Lucic fight. Before that, he had an emerging reputation as this hulking, menacing shutdown defenceman. That fight exposed him as nobody to be afraid of, and drew attention to his pattern of acting big against smaller, weaker players. Add to that the absence of Markov, which exposed limitations in other areas of his game, and you've got a diminished player: not scary enough to intimidate, not quite mobile enough or a good enough passer to be top-4. Indeed, his own self-image or self-belief has probably been taken down a few pegs since his best year with us.

Higgins might be the biggest puzzle of these. It could be argued that he never really had the profile of an offensive player, that his background revealed a player best suited for third-line duty and that he was miscast when coach Gainey put him with Koivu and he had that great offensive breakout. But even so, he had wheels, showed moments of brilliance as a two-way player, had pedigree as former captain of the US world junior team, and seemed to have a high level of commitment and leadership potential. I was sure that his worst-case scenario was that he'd be a Mike Peca type, an elite defensive player. Yet he now seems to be a quasi-marginal NHLer. The most obvious explanation is that injuries ruined him. He's on IR again, I notice...

Having said that, there will always be a big question mark around the players who formed the nucleus of that disastrous 2009 team that imploded from within and then scattered to the four winds. It is striking to me that Bob Gainey, after having coached these guys, was all too willing to let them go (even if he did extend serious offers to Komi and Kovy). As Wamsley says, nothing proven, but I continue to wonder whether Montreal - with all its attendant distractions and ego traps - got to them one way or the other (overconfidence, indiscipline, 'personal problems' which usually implies substance abuse issues, whatever. I'm not making any accusations, just contemplating the possibility that they got ruined by the 'star' complex that Montreal can instil in undeserving, immature players).

Finally, of course, it's possible they just weren't particularly good: basically mediocre talent who had some hot spells and in Komi's case one very fine season. What we thought of as the tip of the iceberg was actually the whole thing.

Edited December 14, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[CoRvInA]

Pure speculation and unprovable.

LOL

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Remember McGuire telling everyone how Markov would be exposed without the amazing Komisarek at his side?

[KEEP26]

i always hated Kovalev.

komi was way over rated by habs fans.

I thought Higgins had the mosted up sizes but i think he over rated him self .

[Wamsley01]

LOL

What is funny about that? Look at the stories about Carey Price over the last two seasons.

Speculation of a personal nature hold zero relevance or importance.

Guy Lafleur admitted some of the most self destructive behaviour possible in his book. Drinking, adultery, you name it

and the guy won multiple cups and MVPs and was the best player on the greatest team of all-time. Theo Fleury was raging

out of control for the better part of a decade and was a perennial All-Star. Neither had a problem until they hit their

early to mid 30s.

C.C. mostly nailed it although I think Komisarek was always average and we wanted him to be something else. Lucic just

exposed him for the fraud he always was. Blocking shots and throwing bodychecks make you Craig Ludwig who was a

fantastic bottom pairing with Mike Lalor, not a top pairing defenseman who was capable of playing with Larry Robinson

and Chris Chelios.

The exact thing is going on with the media and Leaf fans in regards to Luke Schenn right now.

He was sold as Scott Stevens when the Habs drafted him and he never approached that level. Like Gorges said, if you

have problems, give the puck to Markov and Komisarek got a $4.5M deal thanks to this philosophy. Markov had to work

hard minutes with Komi. His collapse with the Leafs is not surprising in the least.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Wamsley01

[nyckdkool]

Congrats on a very interesting question.

Kovalev is probably the easiest to explain...a combination of the player's innate nature (moody, inconsistent) and physical decline.

Komisarek? It's probably too pat an answer - my chronology may even be wrong - but for me he was never the same after the Lucic fight. Before that, he had an emerging reputation as this hulking, menacing shutdown defenceman. That fight exposed him as nobody to be afraid of, and drew attention to his pattern of acting big against smaller, weaker players. Add to that the absence of Markov, which exposed limitations in other areas of his game, and you've got a diminished player: not scary enough to intimidate, not quite mobile enough or a good enough passer to be top-4. Indeed, his own self-image or self-belief has probably been taken down a few pegs since his best year with us.

Higgins might be the biggest puzzle of these. It could be argued that he never really had the profile of an offensive player, that his background revealed a player best suited for third-line duty and that he was miscast when coach Gainey put him with Koivu and he had that great offensive breakout. But even so, he had wheels, showed moments of brilliance as a two-way player, had pedigree as former captain of the US world junior team, and seemed to have a high level of commitment and leadership potential. I was sure that his worst-case scenario was that he'd be a Mike Peca type, an elite defensive player. Yet he now seems to be a quasi-marginal NHLer. The most obvious explanation is that injuries ruined him. He's on IR again, I notice...

Having said that, there will always be a big question mark around the players who formed the nucleus of that disastrous 2009 team that imploded from within and then scattered to the four winds. It is striking to me that Bob Gainey, after having coached these guys, was all too willing to let them go (even if he did extend serious offers to Komi and Kovy). As Wamsley says, nothing proven, but I continue to wonder whether Montreal - with all its attendant distractions and ego traps - got to them one way or the other (overconfidence, indiscipline, 'personal problems' which usually implies substance abuse issues, whatever. I'm not making any accusations, just contemplating the possibility that they got ruined by the 'star' complex that Montreal can instil in undeserving, immature players).

Finally, of course, it's possible they just weren't particularly good: basically mediocre talent who had some hot spells and in Komi's case one very fine season. What we thought of as the tip of the iceberg was actually the whole thing.

Dead on with the Komi assessment, he made a living feasting on the smaller, softer players, once Lucic got a hold of him it was all over. Thankfully he was not resigned. He was a terrible 1st rd pick, he and Hansey cost the Habs valuable picks. USHL is grossly overrated.

[saskhab]

The easiest answer with Komisarek is probably injuries. He probably was never a $4m defenseman, but he is obviously worse today than what he was a couple years ago. We're definitely fortunate he rejected the contract, even though people here complain about Spacek, who essentially replaced his salary and position.

Higgins might be explained a bit by the fact that Koivu was pretty underrated. Look at Zednik without Saku, for example. But Higgins coming up out of the minors always was pegged as a two-way forward, but he never really embraced that role. He's actually done well defensively in Florida this year, or was doing well earlier, I haven't checked back up on him. He may be in the process of finally becoming what he should have been all along: a speedy, defensively responsible third liner. He definitely had an over-inflated view of himself.

Kovalev is old, he was on the decline when he was with us and had one great year where he had a ridiculous shooting percentage (which isn't a reliable skill), most of which was from the PP.

[Wamsley01]

The easiest answer with Komisarek is probably injuries. He probably was never a $4m defenseman, but he is obviously worse today than what he was a couple years ago. We're definitely fortunate he rejected the contract, even though people here complain about Spacek, who essentially replaced his salary and position.

Higgins might be explained a bit by the fact that Koivu was pretty underrated. Look at Zednik without Saku, for example. But Higgins coming up out of the minors always was pegged as a two-way forward, but he never really embraced that role. He's actually done well defensively in Florida this year, or was doing well earlier, I haven't checked back up on him. He may be in the process of finally becoming what he should have been all along: a speedy, defensively responsible third liner. He definitely had an over-inflated view of himself.

Kovalev is old, he was on the decline when he was with us and had one great year where he had a ridiculous shooting percentage (which isn't a reliable skill), most of which was from the PP.

I am surprised CC missed the Koivu underrated aspect.

[CoRvInA]

What is funny about that? Look at the stories about Carey Price over the last two seasons.

Speculation of a personal nature hold zero relevance or importance.

Guy Lafleur admitted some of the most self destructive behaviour possible in his book. Drinking, adultery, you name it

and the guy won multiple cups and MVPs and was the best player on the greatest team of all-time. Theo Fleury was raging

out of control for the better part of a decade and was a perennial All-Star. Neither had a problem until they hit their

early to mid 30s.

C.C. mostly nailed it although I think Komisarek was always average and we wanted him to be something else. Lucic just

exposed him for the fraud he always was. Blocking shots and throwing bodychecks make you Craig Ludwig who was a

fantastic bottom pairing with Mike Lalor, not a top pairing defenseman who was capable of playing with Larry Robinson

and Chris Chelios.

The exact thing is going on with the media and Leaf fans in regards to Luke Schenn right now.

He was sold as Scott Stevens when the Habs drafted him and he never approached that level. Like Gorges said, if you

have problems, give the puck to Markov and Komisarek got a $4.5M deal thanks to this philosophy. Markov had to work

hard minutes with Komi. His collapse with the Leafs is not surprising in the least.

I'm laughing cause Komi's case is of course a (WHO KNOWS WHY?!?!) and also because all three of my descriptions were/are simplistic and with comical relief intent... I would of not expected them taken seriously...

But seeing as you've invested some time into the Komi case I shall reply with this:

Regardless of who he has beside him... PRESENTLY Komi cannot even pass straight anyomore!... And that has hardly anything to do with who your playing with. His mitakes are lack of or inhibited concentration! He is by far the worst Ex habs I've seen in a long long time... And of course Speculatively speaking... there MUST be something outside the rink bothering him. HE never was this bad!.. As you said he used to be able to pass the puck to Markov... Now he passes the puck to opponents like i.e. Cammalleri

[Wamsley01]

I'm laughing cause Komi's case is of course a (WHO KNOWS WHY?!?!) and also because all three of my descriptions were/are simplistic and with comical relief intent... I would of not expected them taken seriously...

But seeing as you've invested some time into the Komi case I shall reply with this:

Regardless of who he has beside him... PRESENTLY Komi cannot even pass straight anyomore!... And that has hardly anything to do with who your playing with. His mitakes are lack of or inhibited concentration! He is by far the worst Ex habs I've seen in a long long time... And of course Speculatively speaking... there MUST be something outside the rink bothering him. HE never was this bad!.. As you said he used to be able to pass the puck to Markov... Now he passes the puck to opponents like i.e. Cammalleri

He is an NHL defenseman, he is just not a $4.5M defenseman that can anchor your team.

The problem is the same with Gomez, once a number is affixed to your name it can act as an anchor. The expectation

associated with it causes acrimonious feelings should that expectation not be reached.

Price was hammered when his worst SV% season was essentially equal to Marc Andre Fleury's career numbers, yet

the perception was that one was a disappointment and the other an Olympic darkhorse. Fleury was the 1st pick overall,

came up with a terrible Pens team and was insulated by having Crosby, Malkin and Staal as other future cornerstones.

So the fans attention was not focused on him like it was on Carey Price even though he was the 5th overall pick and

came up on a playoff team. Add in the immediate performance concerns with the media reports of his magical playoff

run and Dryden/Roy images and you have the setup for unrealistic expectation.

Komisarek would be hailed today for the things he did when he made $2M dollars per season. Blocking shots, throwing the body

fighting etc. When you pay him $4.5M he needs to be able to initiate transition, shutdown the other teams top scorers and

eat first line minutes. It's all about expectation and the reason after the initial shock I was not sorry to see him go.

I called him Craig Ludwig 2.0 two summers ago and he has proven to be no more than that.

[CoRvInA]

I called him Craig Ludwig 2.0 two summers ago and he has proven to be no more than that.

hehe, I liked old Craigy...

I read/heard somewhere in tsn or leaf puckering outlets... that Komi was perhaps a 6th dman or being treated as such.... even 2 mil gets you a better 6th dman

regardless I'm with you .. happy that's not our problem now

[Habsfan]

I was probably Komi's biggest fan when he was with the Habs(I still haven't worn my habs Jersey since he left...mostly because it's got his name and number on the back!!) But even I can admit that Komi is not the player he was when he played for the Habs.

There's no doubt that playing with Markov made him a better D-man. I never thought he should be a top 3 d-man on a team. I always pictured him as a 4th or maybe 5th d-man. A solid stay at home d-man who can block shots and dish out big bodychecks. At 3 million$ per year, I think everyone would agree that he would be worth his salary.

I think Komi started to believe in his own hype and he thought was a top 3 d-man. He got top 3 money and now he has been exposed as a bottom 3 d-man.

As far as Komi having personal problems...I don't know how much truth there is to that? In his first years with the habs, His mom was battling cancer, and he would take Mr Gillett's private jet back to NYC after every game. Even when his mom died, it didn't seem to affect his game very much. If he could deal with the loss of his mother, I think he can deal with any off ice issues...

By the way, this is a great thread!

Edited December 15, 2010 by Habsfan

[Wamsley01]

I was probably Komi's biggest fan when he was with the Habs(I still haven't worn my habs Jersey since he left...mostly because it's got his name and number on the back!!) But even I can admit that Komi is not the player he was when he played for the Habs.

There's no doubt that playing with Markov made him a better D-man. I never thought he should be a top 3 d-man on a team. I always pictured him as a 4th or maybe 5th d-man. A solid stay at home d-man who can block shots and dish out big bodychecks. At 3 million$ per year, I think everyone would agree that he would be worth his salary.

I think Komi started to believe in his own hype and he thought was a top 3 d-man. He got top 3 money and now he has been exposed as a bottom 3 d-man.

As far as Komi having personal problems...I don't know how much truth there is to that? In his first years with the habs, His mom was battling cancer, and he would take Mr Gillett's private jet back to NYC after every game. Even when his mom died, it didn't seem to affect his game very much. If he could deal with the loss of his mother, I think he can deal with any off ice issues...

By the way, this is a great thread!

Interesting, because CC's theory about Higgins essentially says the same thing about Higgins believing that he was a player he wasn't.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I am surprised CC missed the Koivu underrated aspect.

Wellllll...I *did* point out that Higgins flourished artificially from being placed as Koivu's winger...

I always found it interesting that the first thing Gainey did when he took over from Julien as coach was put Komisarek with Markov and Higgins with Koivu. Clearly, there was little doubt in Gainey's mind as to the capacity of Msrs. Markov and Koivu to make their linemates better. Ironically, though, those moves - while beneficial at the time - ultimately inflated expectations (and contract demands) for those players and contributed to the outcomes we're now discussing.

Wamsley was bang-on about Komisarek at the time. I confess to wavering on the question of the Komisarek contract, but in the end I did want us to re-sign him at, say, $4.5 mil. My bad! And Wamsley is also correct that contracts and the related expectations have a deleterious effect on players' careers. But I'm sure their extra, unwarranted millions help them to sleep at night.

[Wamsley01]

Wellllll...I *did* point out that Higgins flourished artificially from being placed as Koivu's winger...

I always found it interesting that the first thing Gainey did when he took over from Julien as coach was put Komisarek with Markov and Higgins with Koivu. Clearly, there was little doubt in Gainey's mind as to the capacity of Msrs. Markov and Koivu to make their linemates better. Ironically, though, those moves - while beneficial at the time - ultimately inflated expectations (and contract demands) for those players and contributed to the outcomes we're now discussing.

Wamsley was bang-on about Komisarek at the time. I confess to wavering on the question of the Komisarek contract, but in the end I did want us to re-sign him at, say, $4.5 mil. My bad! And Wamsley is also correct that contracts and the related expectations have a deleterious effect on players' careers. But I'm sure their extra, unwarranted millions help them to sleep at night.

I just mentioned it because you are a proponent of Koivu being an impact player if he hadn't blown out his knee multiple times and

the fact that he thankfully avoided mention in the first post of this thread.

He was also underrated his whole career in Montreal. Unfortunately, his whole career spanned the worst 10 year span in Canadiens history.

For me, I will always remember his first playoff goal against the Rangers (a laser from the face-off dot), his return from cancer and Rivet

skating to the bench as soon as he scored to hug him, his goal against the Bruins in the 2002 playoffs when the Habs scored 3 straight in the third

(great pass by an unknown Markov) and his shootout goal against the Rangers in the 6-5 comeback.

Not the memories of Roy, Lafleur or even a Muller or Leclair, but a great captain and all-time habs.

Funniest thing is, I think my greatest memory of Kovalev was when he smoked Tucker

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I just mentioned it because you are a proponent of Koivu being an impact player if he hadn't blown out his knee multiple times and

the fact that he thankfully avoided mention in the first post of this thread.

He was also underrated his whole career in Montreal. Unfortunately, his whole career spanned the worst 10 year span in Canadiens history.

For me, I will always remember his first playoff goal against the Rangers (a laser from the face-off dot), his return from cancer and Rivet

skating to the bench as soon as he scored to hug him, his goal against the Bruins in the 2002 playoffs when the Habs scored 3 straight in the third

(great pass by an unknown Markov) and his shootout goal against the Rangers in the 6-5 comeback.

Not the memories of Roy, Lafleur or even a Muller or Leclair, but a great captain and all-time habs.

Funniest thing is, I think my greatest memory of Kovalev was when he smoked Tucker

Ah, memories. Obviously I agree with you on Koivu. Fun stuff right here:

Points to note:

1. Huet came up huge in the second half of the game.

2. Gomez, playing for the other guys, nearly spoiled everything. Lucky his shooting was just as bad then as it is now!

3. What a killer move Koivu puts on Lundvquist in the shootout. :hlogo: :hlogo: :hlogo:

[Wamsley01]

Ah, memories. Obviously I agree with you on Koivu. Fun stuff right here:

Points to note:

1. Huet came up huge in the second half of the game.

2. Gomez, playing for the other guys, nearly spoiled everything. Lucky his shooting was just as bad then as it is now!

3. What a killer move Koivu puts on Lundvquist in the shootout. :hlogo: :hlogo: :hlogo:

The 2nd Ryder goal was when the Rangers began to realize their ultimate fate.

[Habsfan]

Ah, memories. Obviously I agree with you on Koivu. Fun stuff right here:

Points to note:

1. Huet came up huge in the second half of the game.

2. Gomez, playing for the other guys, nearly spoiled everything. Lucky his shooting was just as bad then as it is now!

3. What a killer move Koivu puts on Lundvquist in the shootout. :hlogo: :hlogo: :hlogo:

I was lucky enough to be at that game! Best game I ever saw! I still get goosebumps watching it!