dlbalr Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Here is the latest on the Habs' QO situation: Confirmed offer received: Mathieu Carle Josh Gorges Kyle Klubertanz Ryan Russell Frederic St. Denis Yannick Weber Ryan White Confirmed no offer received: Dustin Boyd Nigel Dawes Alexandre Picard Benoit Pouliot Tom Pyatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Here is the latest on the Habs' QO situation: Confirmed offer received: Confirmed no offer received: Alexandre Picard Benoit Pouliot Unknown: Dustin Boyd Mathieu Carle Nigel Dawes Josh Gorges Kyle Klubertanz Tom Pyatt Ryan Russell Frederic St. Denis Yannick Weber Ryan White The deadline is 5 PM EST. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boyd and Klubertanz let go as both have gone overseas and are near their UFA year anyway. Dawes also is KHL bound but as he's younger, the Habs may hold his rights. There also has been speculation that Pyatt will go unqualified. Great work as always...I'm surprised that they're apparently getting set to part ways with Pouliot - ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Great work as always...I'm surprised that they're apparently getting set to part ways with Pouliot - ? Technically, the Habs didn't qualify him last year and they still kept him around. It just takes away the possibility of salary arbitration. This is similar to what St. Louis is about to do with Matt D'Agostini, interestingly enough. I do think this time they just will let him go though, especially after they had no bites at the draft where he was shopped in a big way. Someone will surely sign him but it will be a 6-figure deal, not the $1.35+ he'd get if he was qualified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 He puts up decent numbers as a 3rd liner. We should be looking to increase our piss poor goal total from last year, not diminish it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Add Pyatt to the non-qualified list...with the caveat of course that there's still an hour and change before the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 He puts up decent numbers as a 3rd liner. We should be looking to increase our piss poor goal total from last year, not diminish it. Well, as dlbalr notes, we shouldn't panic just yet. Beyond that, if he is cut loose, we should wait and see who they hire to replace him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 would like to see Pouliot resigned, good numbers for a 2nd year NHLer and for being in Martin's doghouse all year, but if Martin wont play him, might as well replace his spot with Palushaj or Trotter (or Desharnais?)? Pyatt couldnt put a puck in the ocean; but the Habs do well when he is in the lineup? I would of resigned him before Darche. Engqvist and Nattenin are both good on faceoffs and i wonder if Engqvist will replace Halpern? probably not yet eh? Well, as dlbalr notes, we shouldn't panic just yet. Beyond that, if he is cut loose, we should wait and see who they hire to replace him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 would like to see Pouliot resigned, good numbers for a 2nd year NHLer and for being in Martin's doghouse all year, but if Martin wont play him, might as well replace his spot with Palushaj or Trotter (or Desharnais?)? Pyatt couldnt put a puck in the ocean; but the Habs do well when he is in the lineup? I would of resigned him before Darche. Engqvist and Nattenin are both good on faceoffs and i wonder if Engqvist will replace Halpern? probably not yet eh? If Pouliot was 21 and in his second season, sure you'd re-sign him. Pouliot was drafted back in 2005 and made his NHL debut in the 2006-07 season and will be 25 to start next year. He now has over 350 games of pro (NHL/AHL) experience. I agree that there's a little upside left but if you qualify him and give him arbitration, his cap hit will be heading towards the $1.5-1.75 M mark simply based on his draft position alone. For what he has brought to the table, that's too much which is one of the reasons why they are letting him go. As for Engqvist, I would have him penciled in with the Habs for next year barring other players being signed and bumping him back to Hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 If Pouliot was 21 and in his second season, sure you'd re-sign him. Pouliot was drafted back in 2005 and made his NHL debut in the 2006-07 season and will be 25 to start next year. He now has over 350 games of pro (NHL/AHL) experience. I agree that there's a little upside left but if you qualify him and give him arbitration, his cap hit will be heading towards the $1.5-1.75 M mark simply based on his draft position alone. For what he has brought to the table, that's too much which is one of the reasons why they are letting him go. As for Engqvist, I would have him penciled in with the Habs for next year barring other players being signed and bumping him back to Hamilton. Wouldn't White be above him on the depth chart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 If Pouliot was 21 and in his second season, sure you'd re-sign him. Pouliot was drafted back in 2005 and made his NHL debut in the 2006-07 season and will be 25 to start next year. He now has over 350 games of pro (NHL/AHL) experience. I agree that there's a little upside left but if you qualify him and give him arbitration, his cap hit will be heading towards the $1.5-1.75 M mark simply based on his draft position alone. For what he has brought to the table, that's too much which is one of the reasons why they are letting him go. As for Engqvist, I would have him penciled in with the Habs for next year barring other players being signed and bumping him back to Hamilton. Well, the whole thing is a bit of a bummer. First, we acquire him in exchange for a Québécois power forward who is problematic but nonetheless scores 25 in 55 with Minny...then he teases us with a nice run with Gomez...then he reverts back into his default position of 'enigma'...then we (apparently) lose him just because his cap hit is skewed as a result of his high draft position. The Benny Pouliot story is a frustrating one. His most likely future is probably playing in Europe after bouncing around the NHL a little more. Still, there remains a chance that he will click either as a productive player in some no-pressure market like Florida, or as a decent role-player. But really, Latendresse is the wild card; if he finally discovers the value of physical fitness and returns to his 2009-10 form, it's going to be a pretty excruciating state of affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 if he finally discovers the value of physical fitness and returns to his 2009-10 form, it's going to be a pretty excruciating state of affairs. I don't see how. Bottom line, he is no longer on the team. Who cares what he does from here on out? He could score 50 goals and it wouldn't change that fact he was playing no better than Pouliot is now when we traded him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I don't see how. Bottom line, he is no longer on the team. Who cares what he does from here on out? He could score 50 goals and it wouldn't change that fact he was playing no better than Pouliot is now when we traded him. Give me a break. If we traded away a 50-goal scorer for a player we later cut loose, that would be a damning indictment of our asset management any way you slice it. Of course, there were special circumstances behind Latendresse's demise here, but this 'la-la-la-I-can't-HEEEEAR-you' philosophy is just delusional. Anyway, so far that trade has been pretty even, so we're dealing in hypotheticals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Yeah, but hindsight is always perfect. If Lats showed no signs of being an offensive powerhouse back then (which he clearly didn't), how were the Habs supposed to mystically know to retain him. And even then, who's to say he could have gotten to that point in our system? There are so many variables. With that logic, we should be retaining Paul Mara just in case he because a premiere shutdown defenseman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 1st post updated with the final results. Dawes/Boyd also were let go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Not happy with the lost asset in Pouliot. Mind you, it seems like more GMs are deciding to non-tender their arbitration eligible free agents. The market was flooded with extra depth players, so they'll probably get less as a UFA then they would in arbitration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromage Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 pouliot isn't lost yet.. he didn't receive a qualifying offer last year and STILL signed with montreal.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Yeah, but hindsight is always perfect. If Lats showed no signs of being an offensive powerhouse back then (which he clearly didn't), how were the Habs supposed to mystically know to retain him. And even then, who's to say he could have gotten to that point in our system? There are so many variables. With that logic, we should be retaining Paul Mara just in case he because a premiere shutdown defenseman. A ridiculous analogy, but why waste time arguing about it. I look forward to seeing who the Habs replace him with, in any case. There does seem to be a lot of depth forwards going unqualified, so we may be able to identify a clear-cut better fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Yeah, but hindsight is always perfect. If Lats showed no signs of being an offensive powerhouse back then (which he clearly didn't), how were the Habs supposed to mystically know to retain him. And even then, who's to say he could have gotten to that point in our system? There are so many variables. With that logic, we should be retaining Paul Mara just in case he because a premiere shutdown defenseman. They retained Price even though it looked like Halak was better 12 months ago. That is what GMs are PAID to do. Paul Mara will not turn into a premier shutdown defenseman at the age of 32. If he was going to, it would have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Well, the whole thing is a bit of a bummer. First, we acquire him in exchange for a Québécois power forward who is problematic but nonetheless scores 25 in 55 with Minny...then he teases us with a nice run with Gomez...then he reverts back into his default position of 'enigma'...then we (apparently) lose him just because his cap hit is skewed as a result of his high draft position. The Benny Pouliot story is a frustrating one. His most likely future is probably playing in Europe after bouncing around the NHL a little more. Still, there remains a chance that he will click either as a productive player in some no-pressure market like Florida, or as a decent role-player. But really, Latendresse is the wild card; if he finally discovers the value of physical fitness and returns to his 2009-10 form, it's going to be a pretty excruciating state of affairs. Latendresse posted a ridiculous shooting percentage to register that mark. Just like Sergei this season. No chance he replicates that next season. The fact is that in 2011 there were 2 players who registered better than an 18.8% that Lats measured during his 25 goal season. Anything over 15% would have registered a top 25 finish this season. People don't want to look at these factors, but 3% is the difference between Latendresse registering between 20 or 25. If he had shot his career average of .14% he would have been at 18 goals. Lats scored 12 goals in 56 games shooting 12% playing on the third line in 2009. What happened in 2010 wasn't really a big jump in his performance. He is pretty much the same player he was in Montreal. Shooting percentage fluctuates wildly and it isn't a proven skill. Some years you get more luck than others and those usually result in career years. Gomez is a career 7% shooter, but in 2006 he put up 14%, it is no surprise that he has not been able to replicate that season. Latendresse is not going to get 50 goals. Latendresse has averaged about 145 shots per season, so in order for him to drop 50 he would need to double his regular shot output and match his career high 18%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 They retained Price even though it looked like Halak was better 12 months ago. That is what GMs are PAID to do. Paul Mara will not turn into a premier shutdown defenseman at the age of 32. If he was going to, it would have happened. As for Price/Halak, it was a gamble and everyone knew it. It paid off, but it could have just as easily backfired. As for Mara, I know he isn't gunna turn into a premier shutdown defenseman - but that's not the point. The point is there's a large amount of guesswork that goes into building and maintaining a team, and faulting a GM for every little failure just isn't fair. The best any GM can do is make a call given the information they have at any given moment. It's calculated risk, and it's an essential part of the job. But obviously they wouldn't call it calculated risk if there wasn't any risk in it. It's easy to sit in our computer chairs and pretend we would have made all the right moves without actually having the options in front of us real time with the potential health of the franchise on the line. PG, Gainey and GM's in general take a lot more grief from their fans than they honestly deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 As for Price/Halak, it was a gamble and everyone knew it. It paid off, but it could have just as easily backfired. As for Mara, I know he isn't gunna turn into a premier shutdown defenseman - but that's not the point. The point is there's a large amount of guesswork that goes into building and maintaining a team, and faulting a GM for every little failure just isn't fair. The best any GM can do is make a call given the information they have at any given moment. It's calculated risk, and it's an essential part of the job. But obviously they wouldn't call it calculated risk if there wasn't any risk in it. It's easy to sit in our computer chairs and pretend we would have made all the right moves without actually having the options in front of us real time with the potential health of the franchise on the line. PG, Gainey and GM's in general take a lot more grief from their fans than they honestly deserve. GMs are going to take grief, but it is their responsibility to project forward. It is their responsibility to assess the talent they have and make decisions based on the future. Carey Price wasn't an eeny meenie miney moe gamble. It was likely a decision based on analysis of his ability (technical, physical, mental etc) by Giroux and every other goaltending scout in the organization made by a team that knows him better than anybody else in the league. It was based on historical context and what other 23 year old goaltenders had accomplished at that point, not the knee jerk analysis of the media and fans. It was based on them having an intimate understanding of his attitude, work ethic, maturity etc. All of that was likely contrasted against Halak's and the decision was made with a projection in mind. It was a logical decision to make, it could have turned out wrong if they misjudged/analyzed any of those factors incorrectly, but the thought process was likely much more deliberate than the knee jerker who took the last 20 games to make up his mind. We all know that GMs, coaches and players take heat from people with zero knowledge or insight of the relevant factors. One can make an intelligent dissection of a situation, but if that dissection is based on incorrect information, all it becomes is a brilliantly crafted incorrect answer. If a GM does his due diligence but makes a poor decision based on flawed information than he is responsible for that wrong decision. We see it happen all the time. If they misjudged Latendresse's work ethic, potential, ceiling etc. than damn right they are responsible. Are they at fault? Not necessarily, because you never know when the lightbulb will come on with players. Some people look like lost causes and then something triggers their understanding. Maturity maybe, the shock of being traded, who knows. To me there is a difference between trading Patrick Roy for a bag of pucks and dealing a 22 year old who shows up to camp fat and complains about playing time. One offense is indefensible, the other is understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patience is a virtue Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) As for Price/Halak, it was a gamble and everyone knew it. It paid off, but it could have just as easily backfired. As for Mara, I know he isn't gunna turn into a premier shutdown defenseman - but that's not the point. The point is there's a large amount of guesswork that goes into building and maintaining a team, and faulting a GM for every little failure just isn't fair. The best any GM can do is make a call given the information they have at any given moment. It's calculated risk, and it's an essential part of the job. But obviously they wouldn't call it calculated risk if there wasn't any risk in it. It's easy to sit in our computer chairs and pretend we would have made all the right moves without actually having the options in front of us real time with the potential health of the franchise on the line. PG, Gainey and GM's in general take a lot more grief from their fans than they honestly deserve. "It could have just as easily backfired." Not true. Because it was an "educated guess", not a toss of the dice. PG did his job - he assessed history, attitudes, talent, upside, salary needs and the team cap situation and he made the tough call most thoughtful observers were urging him to make. Price has the better upside of the two young goalies. Halak had a career year he was unlikely to replicate, etc. I am not worried about Lats. Sergie is another story, but the attitude problems with him seem to have ran deeper and were intertwined with his brother's performance as well. Not sure there was a better decision to be made in either case. On the otherhand, I think it would be a mistake to let Pouliot walk and hope he is resigned for $1.25M. But I am not privy to all the info that goes into educating the goaty guesser. Edited June 28, 2011 by patience is a virtue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I can't believe your still talking about Price / Halak. It's over, they kept Price, he had an incredible year. Move on. There wasn't really a thread for UFA / What the habs will or should do. I would go after Jagr, 2 years. If you sign him i would move AK$^ for a pick or prospect. Then i would resign Wis 4 year around 20 mill. I would try and sign Joel Ward, Torres someone like that. That would add some size, grit and some offense. The defense would be excellent. Very well balanced. Markov Gorges Subban Gill Wiz Spacek I sign a back up who can play 20 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 GMs are going to take grief, but it is their responsibility to project forward. It is their responsibility to assess the talent they have and make decisions based on the future. Carey Price wasn't an eeny meenie miney moe gamble. It was likely a decision based on analysis of his ability (technical, physical, mental etc) by Giroux and every other goaltending scout in the organization made by a team that knows him better than anybody else in the league. It was based on historical context and what other 23 year old goaltenders had accomplished at that point, not the knee jerk analysis of the media and fans. It was based on them having an intimate understanding of his attitude, work ethic, maturity etc. All of that was likely contrasted against Halak's and the decision was made with a projection in mind. It was a logical decision to make, it could have turned out wrong if they misjudged/analyzed any of those factors incorrectly, but the thought process was likely much more deliberate than the knee jerker who took the last 20 games to make up his mind. We all know that GMs, coaches and players take heat from people with zero knowledge or insight of the relevant factors. One can make an intelligent dissection of a situation, but if that dissection is based on incorrect information, all it becomes is a brilliantly crafted incorrect answer. If a GM does his due diligence but makes a poor decision based on flawed information than he is responsible for that wrong decision. We see it happen all the time. If they misjudged Latendresse's work ethic, potential, ceiling etc. than damn right they are responsible. Are they at fault? Not necessarily, because you never know when the lightbulb will come on with players. Some people look like lost causes and then something triggers their understanding. Maturity maybe, the shock of being traded, who knows. To me there is a difference between trading Patrick Roy for a bag of pucks and dealing a 22 year old who shows up to camp fat and complains about playing time. One offense is indefensible, the other is understandable. I never said it was a knee-jerk reaction, I said it was a calculated risk based on information available at the time. So basically just said exactly what I was saying. "It could have just as easily backfired." Not true. Because it was an "educated guess", not a toss of the dice. Educated guess, toss of the dice, call it whatever you want. In the end, what I'm saying is that you can't definitively know which players to keep and which to trade. You can have all knowledge in the world on which to base you decision, but in the end you are still taking a chance. There are no sure bets in hockey. I can't believe your still talking about Price / Halak. It's over, they kept Price, he had an incredible year. Move on. If you think I'm bringing it up to argue it, I think you are 100% missing my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patience is a virtue Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Educated guess, toss of the dice, call it whatever you want. In the end, what I'm saying is that you can't definitively know which players to keep and which to trade. You can have all knowledge in the world on which to base you decision, but in the end you are still taking a chance. There are no sure bets in hockey. Agreed - you cannot definitively know anything, you are taking chances, and there are no sure bets. But that's still VERY different from tossing dice. Executive decision-making is art and a science combined - in pro hockey and many other sectors. The amount of quantitative and qualitative analysis provided NHL GMs must be staggering these days (given what I know from first hand accounts from the OHL). Calculating risks based on such data and choosing Price over Halak or Pouliot over Latendresse aren't bets on random dice numbers. On the otherhand, offering Poo $1.25M for one year at this juncture seems a bit more like tossing the dice. And I'd go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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