David Desharnais extended, 4 years, $3.5 mil cap hit

[Commandant]

Desharnais was eligible for salary arbitration if not signed.

An interesting comparable is Sam Gagner, another undersized centre, who is weak defensively and has the exact same PPG career wise as Desharnais.

Gagner is reportedly asking an arbitrator to give him $5.5 million per season.

Now while its unlikely he will get that much, thats the high end number for a player with Desharnais' offensive stats.

So tell me again why avoiding arbitration and signing him to a 3.5 million dollar per season deal was so much above market value and he can not possibly have any value on the trade market?

[Neech]

Sam Gagner has a higher ceiling, and that PPG average includes years in the league as a teenager.

He's also benefitted from the Carey Price school of a high draft pick's perceived talent vs actual performance. So since the start of his career he was always going to make more money than DD even if their numbers are similar.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

So tell me again why avoiding arbitration and signing him to a 3.5 million dollar per season deal was so much above market value and he can not possibly have any value on the trade market?

It's interesting that Leaf fans are always hopeful despite nothing but depressing, mediocre results while Canadiens fans are depressed and pessimistic despite the fact we've been constantly improving as an organization save for 2011-2012.

One could say we as fans "expect better results" but we have a lot to be excited about and obsessing over the ability of one small sized center who had the worst season of his young career making only $3.5M per season kind of shows we're not ready for real success as a fanbase. We're spoiled by the past and too ignorant of our present to deserve a great future.

Really I just see everyone, including myself at times, downloading the Scott Gomez problems onto David Desharnais when it isn't really warranted. Different players, different contracts, different everything. While I too sometimes feel as though Desharnais' spot is reserved due to his background, truth is he's a guy people underestimate every single game and last season was the first time he didn't bring the results. Of course, Max Pacioretty was in many ways worse than Desharnais in the playoffs last year but as the best left winger on our team, nobody is going to even attempt to call him out on that.

That all said, I expect this team to be top three in the division. If DD proves expendable, I expect Bergevin to move him. Just not going to treat him like the new Scott Gomez.

[habs rule]

It's interesting that Leaf fans are always hopeful despite nothing but depressing, mediocre results while Canadiens fans are depressed and pessimistic despite the fact we've been constantly improving as an organization save for 2011-2012.

One could say we as fans "expect better results" but we have a lot to be excited about and obsessing over the ability of one small sized center who had the worst season of his young career making only $3.5M per season kind of shows we're not ready for real success as a fanbase. We're spoiled by the past and too ignorant of our present to deserve a great future.

Really I just see everyone, including myself at times, downloading the Scott Gomez problems onto David Desharnais when it isn't really warranted. Different players, different contracts, different everything. While I too sometimes feel as though Desharnais' spot is reserved due to his background, truth is he's a guy people underestimate every single game and last season was the first time he didn't bring the results. Of course, Max Pacioretty was in many ways worse than Desharnais in the playoffs last year but as the best left winger on our team, nobody is going to even attempt to call him out on that.

That all said, I expect this team to be top three in the division. If DD proves expendable, I expect Bergevin to move him. Just not going to treat him like the new Scott Gomez.

very well put,molg

[Commandant]

Sam Gagner has a higher ceiling, and that PPG average includes years in the league as a teenager.

He's also benefitted from the Carey Price school of a high draft pick's perceived talent vs actual performance. So since the start of his career he was always going to make more money than DD even if their numbers are similar.

Arbitrators do not consider things like "potential ceiling" or where a player was drafted. These things are irrelevant to the arbitration process which is stats based, not potential based. The arbitrator is setting the market based on players with similar stats.

After 5 years in the NHL, the spot where Gagner was drafted or the fact DD was undrafted is irrelevant compared to real stats like PPG average.

Still the fact remains 3.5 is a very good deal for the stats DD puts up.

[BlueKross]

Interesting. Perhaps we should give Edmonton a call and tell them we can deliver the same player as Gagner for 2M cheaper.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Yes, I think the Gagner contract should pretty definitively put an end to this argument. DD's contract is at worst defensible and at best actually a good deal, comparatively speaking.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

To be fair, Gagner is only 23 despite his extra games in the NHL. After that I don't have much to say in terms of defending it. He's one of the worst faceoff centers in the league, he's inconsistent and he's prone to temper tantrums. And I say that when liking him.

[Commandant]

Yes, I think the Gagner contract should pretty definitively put an end to this argument. DD's contract is at worst defensible and at best actually a good deal, comparatively speaking.

Gagner gets 14.4 million over 3 years.... DD gets 14 over 4 seasons.

Per season, Gagner gets 37.14% more.

Funny how overpaid that DD is.

Of course the argument on Twitter is DD is overpaid cause he needs Patches to produce.... well except for the 2010-11 season when he was on an over 40 point pace with third liners.

[BlueKross]

Gagner gets 14.4 million over 3 years.... DD gets 14 over 4 seasons.

Per season, Gagner gets 37.14% more.

Funny how overpaid that DD is.

Of course the argument on Twitter is DD is overpaid cause he needs Patches to produce.... well except for the 2010-11 season when he was on an over 40 point pace with third liners.

Your argument is sound concerning DD's contract. Arbitrators deal in tangibles. GM's however on most occasions are the price setters and usually put intangibles in their logic. For all--- How many GM's out of 29, if had Gagner would trade him to MB straight up for Desharnais?

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Your argument is sound concerning DD's contract. Arbitrators deal in tangibles. GM's however on most occasions are the price setters and usually put intangibles in their logic. For all--- How many GM's out of 29, if had Gagner would trade him to MB straight up for Desharnais?

None due to the fact Gagner is still only 23.

[Commandant]

Your argument is sound concerning DD's contract. Arbitrators deal in tangibles. GM's however on most occasions are the price setters and usually put intangibles in their logic. For all--- How many GM's out of 29, if had Gagner would trade him to MB straight up for Desharnais?

DD was arbitration eligible this year, and MB cited that when he signed him.

Brian Little signs.

To Recap

1 50 pt season (51 points 5 years ago in 08-09 season)..... 4.7 million per year for 5 years.

0 50 pt seasons....... 4.8 million per year for 5 years.

Both guys make over 35% more than Desharnais who has a 60 point season in the last two years, and was on pace for 48 over 82 games this year..... pace of 44 in 2010-11.

[BlueKross]

DD was arbitration eligible this year, and MB cited that when he signed him.

Brian Little signs.

To Recap

1 50 pt season (51 points 5 years ago in 08-09 season)..... 4.7 million per year for 5 years.

0 50 pt seasons....... 4.8 million per year for 5 years.

Both guys make over 35% more than Desharnais who has a 60 point season in the last two years, and was on pace for 48 over 82 games this year..... pace of 44 in 2010-11.

FYI-- Gagner signs for 4.8/3 yrs today per HF boards. Knowing this, How many GM's trade Gagner for Desharnais straight up?

[Commandant]

I'm not saying he's better than, or even equal to either of those two guys straight up.

I'm saying when you consider that those two guys make 35+% more, his contract is NOT an overpayment and not untradeable.

[hankhab]

I must admit, the contracts noted above do make the Desharnes signing seem reasonable. However, just because we can find two players who just got overpaid, doesn't make the deal a great one. My problem with the contract is that we have Eller, Plekanics, Galchenyuk (who must be slowly transitioned into a centre) as three top two centers already. I think we need to move one of Plekanics, Desharnes or Gionta in the next year or so. I hate hearing how the Habs are too small, but with Gallager,Gionta, Plekanics, Desharnes and Briere all playing top 9 minutes, well, we are too small.

[BlueKross]

I must admit, the contracts noted above do make the Desharnes signing seem reasonable. However, just because we can find two players who just got overpaid, doesn't make the deal a great one. My problem with the contract is that we have Eller, Plekanics, Galchenyuk (who must be slowly transitioned into a centre) as three top two centers already. I think we need to move one of Plekanics, Desharnes or Gionta in the next year or so. I hate hearing how the Habs are too small, but with Gallager,Gionta, Plekanics, Desharnes and Briere all playing top 9 minutes, well, we are too small.

I only counted two guys on the Stanley cup Champions BlackHawks, which were deemed small on this board, that were under 6'.One was 5'11" the other 5'10". We are going into the season with seven players under 6', the bulk of which are 5'10 or less. BUT WE ARE BIG ENOUGH in heart, so they tell me.

[habs rule]

I must admit, the contracts noted above do make the Desharnes signing seem reasonable. However, just because we can find two players who just got overpaid, doesn't make the deal a great one. My problem with the contract is that we have Eller, Plekanics, Galchenyuk (who must be slowly transitioned into a centre) as three top two centers already. I think we need to move one of Plekanics, Desharnes or Gionta in the next year or so. I hate hearing how the Habs are too small, but with Gallager,Gionta, Plekanics, Desharnes and Briere all playing top 9 minutes, well, we are too small.

so your theory is we should not have signed him? Last year when we had all the injuries? Just let him go for nothing? I do not get your point. He is a 60 pt centre and he was going to get 3.5 in arbitration minimum. what is the problem? No he is not the end all be all but MB has to deal with what he has not what he wishes he had. These bs arguments over size are getting me down. MB had a choice sign him or let him go to arbitration. He probably saved money. get over it.

[Trizzak]

http://capgeek.com/comparables/?player_id=98

Desharnais' cap hit comparable. We'll remove anyone on their bridge contract and who performed better than him statistically (28 points in 48 games), and we are left with:

Saku Koivu

Matt Stajan

Alex Tanguay

Scottie Upshall

Matt Cullen

Dave Bolland

Alexander Steen

Rene Bourque

Artem Anisimov

Rich Peverley

Jarret Stoll

Antoine Vermette

How many of these guys are untradeable? Heck, 3 of them (italicized) have already been traded this summer. I know this isn't an exact science, and some of these guys play different styles of hockey than Desharnais, but I think it puts the 3.5 mill contract into a bit of perspective...

It's not unmovable. It is actually kind of a steal.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

'Untradeable' is overstated, but fair to say the return on him would probably be pretty modest. That's a different matter, however. This deal is not a cap millstone, and as for the idea that we'll have to move some players eventually in order to stay under the cap - probably. But that's what real cap management is, not systematically underpaying all your players (which is impossible anyway).

[JoeLassister]

'Untradeable' is overstated, but fair to say the return on him would probably be pretty modest. That's a different matter, however. This deal is not a cap millstone, and as for the idea that we'll have to move some players eventually in order to stay under the cap - probably. But that's what real cap management is, not systematically underpaying all your players (which is impossible anyway).

Bofff... So what, we signed him as a free agent anyway. Any return for him would be considered as a win.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Bofff... So what, we signed him as a free agent anyway. Any return for him would be considered as a win.

Assuming Galy moves to C and delivers, then yeah. Shipping him out for a middling pick would simply be sensible roster management.

EDIT: unless, that is, his game takes a significant jump forward, or perhaps he makes an effective switch to wing at some point. Don't get me wrong, I always pulled for this guy and am in no hurry to drive him out of town, but the most realistic end for him here is indeed being superceded and shipped out for modest return.

[JoeLassister]

Assuming Galy moves to C and delivers, then yeah. Shipping him out for a middling pick would simply be sensible roster management.

That's my wish.

[sim.on]

I dont have any problem with the contract. 3.5 /year for a guy that will likely put up 50-60pts is a bargain, and for that he could easily be moved for something.

The problem as I see it, is his weakness on the defensive side of the game. That by default means that he can really only play the role of a 1st or second line center. I know his +/- isnt terrible but stats dont tell the whole story and watching him play its easy to see he struggles in our own end, in part due his sive imho.

I think most people would agree that true contending teams cant afford to have one of their top two centers being a defensive liability especially given the amount of ice time they account for. The problem is amplified in the playoffs where the physical intensity is much higher and there are a higher percentage of goals being scored close to the net which has resulted in lower offensive numbers for DD, 1 assist and 3 shots in 5 games vs the Sens.

I beleive DD does have value though with his good hockey sense, strong play making ability and he is not as easily knocked off the puck as you would guess for someone his size, he just cant knock other people off the puck. As already suggested on, I think the only way he has a long term future with the team is if he is moved to the wing.


Patches Galchenyuk Gallagher
DD Eller Gionta
Briere Pleck Bourque
Moen White Prust

This lineup is not the most ideal but given the pieces we have i dont think any one combination would be perfect. The team is definitely not ready to win it all next year but in a couple of years when Galchenyuk has hopefully developed into a true number one C these will not all be the same pieces and I think DD is one if the most likely to be moved.

[hankhab]

so your theory is we should not have signed him? Last year when we had all the injuries? Just let him go for nothing? I do not get your point. He is a 60 pt centre and he was going to get 3.5 in arbitration minimum. what is the problem? No he is not the end all be all but MB has to deal with what he has not what he wishes he had. These bs arguments over size are getting me down. MB had a choice sign him or let him go to arbitration. He probably saved money. get over it.

Less term, perhaps? You are correct, letting him go for nothing would be just stupid, and nobody wins in arbitration. But the size issue is not getting any better. And please reread my post. I didn't say he shouldn't have been signed. I thought my point was obvious, I wonder about the usefulness of a small offensive centre when we have 3 better or more promising centres who will need the ice time, and our top 9 is too small. There, can you understand now?

[Commandant]

I must admit, the contracts noted above do make the Desharnes signing seem reasonable. However, just because we can find two players who just got overpaid, doesn't make the deal a great one. My problem with the contract is that we have Eller, Plekanics, Galchenyuk (who must be slowly transitioned into a centre) as three top two centers already. I think we need to move one of Plekanics, Desharnes or Gionta in the next year or so. I hate hearing how the Habs are too small, but with Gallager,Gionta, Plekanics, Desharnes and Briere all playing top 9 minutes, well, we are too small.

Firstly... there is more than just those two players..... Every UFA centre who scores ~50 points a season is getting over 4 million dollars, and Desharnais is at 3.5.

Secondly.... just because we have depth and need to trade one of the small players does not make it a bad contract. Its a good value deal that can be traded if necessary.

Thirdly... Comparing a guy who is 5'11 in Plekanec to a guy who is 5'6" in Desharnais is silly. Pleks is closer in height to Pacioretty than he is to DD.

Fourthly.... Galchenyuk is 19. Yes he has to be transitioned to centre, but that doesn't mean it has to happen overnight..... Claude Giroux was playing wing at 22.