The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I watched Subban play a hand full of games when he was playing for Belleville; he was untouchable when rushing the puck. The difference then was he would drive the net hard as hell(it was the OHL, I know). Now he stops as soon as he hits the offensive zone. I really hate comparing Karlson and Subban, but in Ottawa they give Karlson a lot more freedom on the breakout. Subban picks up so much momentum when he crosses the red line, then stops and waits for the boys to catch up. He needs to carry that momentum and start getting some shots in deep. I now the fall back for Subbam being deep in the offensive zone, but I would like to see him drive it a bit more. I agree, but I'm pretty sure he's heard nothing but criticism from coaches for these solo rushes since he joined the NHL. You can almost see him sometimes, picking up steam and then sort of stopping himself, saying "oh wait, I'm not supposed to do this anymore," then slowing down, as you note. Partly it's (exagerrated) risk-aversion common among NHL coaches (coach: Stay in position!! Stay in position!!" PK: "uh...I can skate around the whole team, but OK, you're the boss"); and partly, I think, it's a subtler and more insidious mentality that resents anybody who plays an "individual" game, unable to imagine that anyone ever doing so might actually be beneficial to the team. It's rather like how when flashy forwards come into the NHL, they are continually told that the one-on-one plays that worked in junior won't work in the NHL and shouldn't even be attempted, lest the kid cough up the puck. Subban has gotten a dose of the same thing. The problem is, we'd all be poorer if this formula had been enforced upon players like Mario Lemieux, and I think, to some degree, that's what's happening with PK. Not that he's in Mario's class, but the analogy is similar in that he might be a player who should get a partial exemption from the conventional wisdom of today's uptight NHL coaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I agree, but I'm pretty sure he's heard nothing but criticism from coaches for these solo rushes since he joined the NHL. You can almost see him sometimes, picking up steam and then sort of stopping himself, saying "oh wait, I'm not supposed to do this anymore," then slowing down, as you note. Partly it's (exagerrated) risk-aversion common among NHL coaches (coach: Stay in position!! Stay in position!!" PK: "uh...I can skate around the whole team, but OK, you're the boss"); and partly, I think, it's a subtler and more insidious mentality that resents anybody who plays an "individual" game, unable to imagine that anyone ever doing so might actually be beneficial to the team. It's rather like how when flashy forwards come into the NHL, they are continually told that the one-on-one plays that worked in junior won't work in the NHL and shouldn't even be attempted, lest the kid cough up the puck. Subban has gotten a dose of the same thing. The problem is, we'd all be poorer if this formula had been enforced upon players like Mario Lemieux, and I think, to some degree, that's what's happening with PK. Not that he's in Mario's class, but the analogy is similar in that he might be a player who should get a partial exemption from the conventional wisdom of today's uptight NHL coaches. Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 He is a superstar LET MY PK GO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I think there has to be a balance. PK's gotten better at doing the little things that make the difference between a good defenceman and a great one. I'd say the coaching staff has done a pretty good job of reinforcing a responsible mindset. This isn't the 70's or 80's where Orr and Coffey can easily skate around a whole team. PK's ahead of the pack, but he's not in a separate stratosphere like those players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I think there has to be a balance. PK's gotten better at doing the little things that make the difference between a good defenceman and a great one. I'd say the coaching staff has done a pretty good job of reinforcing a responsible mindset. This isn't the 70's or 80's where Orr and Coffey can easily skate around a whole team. PK's ahead of the pack, but he's not in a separate stratosphere like those players. Given the coaches' approach, you must be correct...the problem is that we DO see PK skate around whole teams seemingly at will. My gut just isn't so certain that the normal rules apply to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I think there has to be a balance. PK's gotten better at doing the little things that make the difference between a good defenceman and a great one. I'd say the coaching staff has done a pretty good job of reinforcing a responsible mindset. This isn't the 70's or 80's where Orr and Coffey can easily skate around a whole team. PK's ahead of the pack, but he's not in a separate stratosphere like those players. Subban already skates from end to end, seemingly at will, but seems to be very restrained in opposition zone, where as Karllson is given free reign to free wheel and it shows in his defensive play. I didnt say he was "as good as" Orr or Coffey, but I would say in another year or 2 and I bet he will separate himself from the his peers and who knows just how good a 26 year old PK will be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Given the coaches' approach, you must be correct...the problem is that we DO see PK skate around whole teams seemingly at will. My gut just isn't so certain that the normal rules apply to him. The only guy I honestly see skate like Subban (and at times better) is Crosby. Crosby does some of the same tricks as Subban, with the "subby doo" spins and sliding into places he probably shouldn't have got into. It's kind of like Gretzky's quote of a great player goes where the puck is going to be. Good players carry the puck. Great players control the puck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 The only guy I honestly see skate like Subban (and at times better) is Crosby. Crosby does some of the same tricks as Subban, with the "subby doo" spins and sliding into places he probably shouldn't have got into. It's kind of like Gretzky's quote of a great player goes where the puck is going to be. Good players carry the puck. Great players control the puck. I have to say that. Subban's flailing with the arms, seemingly almost out of control and still shielding the puck from attackers as he does, it just seems unlike any other player I can recall. Crosby, Karlsson, Ovechkin and Malkin protect the puck, but in a more "standard" or predictable manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I have to say that. Subban's flailing with the arms, seemingly almost out of control and still shielding the puck from attackers as he does, it just seems unlike any other player I can recall. Crosby, Karlsson, Ovechkin and Malkin protect the puck, but in a more "standard" or predictable manner. Really? Kovalev used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Really? Kovalev used to it. You would equate Subban and Kovalev style of play? Kovalev was invisible 99% of time and I don't see similarities, but could be, he was very good handling the puck for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 You would equate Subban and Kovalev style of play? Kovalev was invisible 99% of time and I don't see similarities, but could be, he was very good handling the puck for sure. I'm speaking specifically on strong arming (you called it a flail) a player when carrying the puck. It was a common move by Kovalev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm speaking specifically on strong arming (you called it a flail) a player when carrying the puck. It was a common move by Kovalev. Sure, cant disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 The only guy I honestly see skate like Subban (and at times better) is Crosby. Crosby does some of the same tricks as Subban, with the "subby doo" spins and sliding into places he probably shouldn't have got into. It's kind of like Gretzky's quote of a great player goes where the puck is going to be. Good players carry the puck. Great players control the puck. I have to say that. Subban's flailing with the arms, seemingly almost out of control and still shielding the puck from attackers as he does, it just seems unlike any other player I can recall. Crosby, Karlsson, Ovechkin and Malkin protect the puck, but in a more "standard" or predictable manner. That's what I mean...I think a big part of this idea that he is "high risk" is based on people seeing him do things players aren't "supposed" to do. Observers fixate on the fact of his doing these things, and overlook the fact that he reliably does them successfully. The reference to Crosby is apt. I'll bet that if PK had been a 1st-overall draft pick, people would be expressing awe at his skills rather than punishing him for doing these things. Instead the assumption seems to be that he can't be THAT special. I think he just might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 You would equate Subban and Kovalev style of play? Kovalev was invisible 99% of time and I don't see similarities, but could be, he was very good handling the puck for sure. ahh but when le artiste was visible he was incredible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm speaking specifically on strong arming (you called it a flail) a player when carrying the puck. It was a common move by Kovalev. Subban's rushes through the neutral zone are also Kovalev-esque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Given the coaches' approach, you must be correct...the problem is that we DO see PK skate around whole teams seemingly at will. My gut just isn't so certain that the normal rules apply to him. We see him go on blistering end-to-end rushes, but how often do these result in a good chance, much less a goal? Team defense is way ahead of what it was in the old days, and teams will be willing to let Subban keep the puck if they can force him outside. More often, the right play is the less flashy one, and Subban is choosing the right play more at this point in his career. I like that he's improved his overall hockey sense, and I still think he has that out-of-the-rink athleticism in his back pocket and will perhaps use it more judiciously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Subban's rushes through the neutral zone are also Kovalev-esque. Elegant skill in hockey went from being "French Canadian" style to "European" style, even when Wayne Gretzky was doing it. Unfortunately Canadian training evolved to beat the Russians, moving towards being physical and focusing on north/south. Lost the beauty of the game. That's why I love when Cherry rants about physicality over "dipsy doodling". Bobby Orr was all grace and he worships him. Orr wasn't much different to Crosby in attitude but Crosby gets blamed for all of the stuff Orr did. Pretty clear once Cherry got fired by the Boston Bruins his demeanour changed. That's why the high skill hockey players are far more exciting to watch than a bullish power forward but power forwards are far more valued than a smooth skater. It ain't to say one is better than the other but it's all in who is wielding the skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Wow, on Hockey central they talked about PK. Two Issues. 1. They don't need what he brings as they have Doughty and Weber for offence.... Perhaps they should look at the stats instead of going off reputation. Seriously.... Get the out. 2. They are not sure PK can handle the big ice. Afraid he will attempt big hits and get caught out of position. Wow... Just wow.... PK spent his entire JR career playing and impressing on international ice in Belleville. He has more experience on that ice size then anyone else on the team. It also explains why we haven't seen that big hit from PK in a month. I was wondering why he wasn't stepping up and creaming guys...I guess Yzerman told him he was worried about it. So now we have PK changing his game to suit team canada. I have come to the conclusion that this is just the old boys club again. The guys who were on team canada before are golden, the young guys like PK are nit picked. Hell, they still think Luongo has the crease, Price still battling Mike Smith for the backup spot.... Wow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Yep, brobin, same old same old. Pk is one thing, but the idea that Price should backup Luongo would be absurd to anyone who cares a fig about actual on-ice performance. Price has been about as good as it's possible for a goalie to be all season long. Luongo hasn't. At the very least that should make it a 50/50 proposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 To be honest, if we're going based on the half season performance alone, Price would backup Josh Harding while Luongo doesn't even make Team Canada. But Team Canada really isn't about setting up a Canadian All-Star team and more building the team they think can beat the other countries. The people who build these teams have pretty much the same mentality Canada had in the 70s when it felt it needed to re-design Hockey Canada programs. It's mostly about beating the Russians. Hence why Team USA, despite having lesser quality players than Canada, can be pretty much their equal. They actually play a Team USA All-Star system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 The thing is, PK was better last year, and this year then most of the so called top 8. Even if PK makes it, they are talking the number 8 guy. They seem to be basing decisions on what people did two years ago. They are still talking about Boyle.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 To be honest, if we're going based on the half season performance alone, Price would backup Josh Harding while Luongo doesn't even make Team Canada. But Team Canada really isn't about setting up a Canadian All-Star team and more building the team they think can beat the other countries. The people who build these teams have pretty much the same mentality Canada had in the 70s when it felt it needed to re-design Hockey Canada programs. It's mostly about beating the Russians. Hence why Team USA, despite having lesser quality players than Canada, can be pretty much their equal. They actually play a Team USA All-Star system. Team Canada bases their choices on consistent play and guys who have played well in high pressure situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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