Saku hates this winning streak. Ducks @ Bell Centre, 7:30PM

[Toronthab]

Could it be that our biggest problem on the blueline is that Emelin is not the player he was supposed to be? In 2012-13, he was an absolute lynchpin back there, and that, I think, set the expectation for what he could bring. But since then, he really has not been nearly as effective, and arguably is not a legitimate top-4 defenceman but rather a prototypical bottom-pairing guy.

Habs 30/31 is correct that the blueline is problematic, and not a legitimate Cup-winning D-corps. I always look to the blueline when assessing a team. I really like our team, but the blueline is flawed in the #3 and #4 slots; we've got two legit top-pairing guys (even if one of them is on his last legs), and a bunch of #5 defencemen. I like Gonchar a lot - I always like smart, canny players - but as a core piece on a Cup winner? Not at this stage of his career.

The answer will come from within, of course. Beaulieu and Tinordi. But in the meantime, it's about patch-up jobs. I would not be at all surprised to see Zoot Suit go out and get a rental defenceman at the deadline, if he has any cap space.

Great posts guys.. smart stuff. I like your point here CC. I just have this ...not researched ... notion that Emelin seems to mess up quite a bit more than I'd hoped or if not actually messing up... not rising to situations.. . I had ...reasonably or not, higher hopes.

And I love skilled D with great hockey sense.. but Gonchar, super guy that he is by all accounts, and good as he's been, I doubt that he can really grind it out into the playoffs. Small percentage declines make quite a difference at the pro level. Take my IQ for instance.

Is it possible that our Beaulieu is being charted and planned to develop over the course of the rest of this season to the point where he's a possible credible second pairing candidate when the last dances are in sight? Could that be part of the plan as we move forward, or is it unrealistic?

On another point, am I correct in thinking that Gallagher is slowly, incrementally, changing and adapting to a more offensive posture on the ice with his new duties? He seems to me to be not just tenacious in the other end, but also, a tiny bit more creative and offensive as well, while still seeming to have somewhat clayish hands... Possible?

[Toronthab]

I'd rather wait until Beaulieu showed that he can competently play 17-18 minutes a game for more than one game before asking him to play closer to 22-24 with Markov. Also, putting Subban with Gonchar would make the latter play a lot more. You don't seem to be a big fan of Gonchar so wouldn't that be a bad thing?

Good circumspect points Brian. Are you up next after MB or is it HR?

[Toronthab]

After that, I would give Tinordi a solid shot at earning then owning a spot on the third pair.

I don't know if it was Shakespeare who described a great hope this way, and its perhaps a little over the top... as usual... but

"A consumation devoutly to be wished."

[habs rule]

Brian wins that one hands down. Markov needs less ice time in the second 1/2 of the season. Gonchar also needs less ice time in the second 1/2 of the season. Our replacement guys don't fill me with a lot of confidence, 2 kids weaver, gilbert,allen. The best of that bunch is Weaver. That can't be good. As most of us (all?) have been saying we need another solid top 4. Trade steal or develop, at this point trade looks to be the best option. But I am getting tired of bringing in bandaid solutions to the defence core. It is a long list of bandaids as we know. Beaulieu or Tinordi should be the guys, however they don't seem to be able to crash the barrier into being a true NHL'r , I know it is going to happen, probably in a "all of a sudden there he is" way. This team is very close to being a real contenda, patience just isn't my strong suit. I want it NOW.

I don't know if it was Shakespeare who described a great hope this way, and its perhaps a little over the top... as usual... but

"A consumation devoutly to be wished."

Is this about that girl friend again?

[JoeLassister]

Brian wins that one hands down. Markov needs less ice time in the second 1/2 of the season. Gonchar also needs less ice time in the second 1/2 of the season. Our replacement guys don't fill me with a lot of confidence, 2 kids weaver, gilbert,allen. The best of that bunch is Weaver. That can't be good. As most of us (all?) have been saying we need another solid top 4. Trade steal or develop, at this point trade looks to be the best option. But I am getting tired of bringing in bandaid solutions to the defence core. It is a long list of bandaids as we know. Beaulieu or Tinordi should be the guys, however they don't seem to be able to crash the barrier into being a true NHL'r , I know it is going to happen, probably in a "all of a sudden there he is" way. This team is very close to being a real contenda, patience just isn't my strong suit. I want it NOW.

Is this about that girl friend again?

I'm pretty confident that the "all of sudden there he is" way will not happen.

Both need, IMO, a good 41 games straight in the NHL to crash that barrier. Beaulieu is almost there.

Let's face it. We win with Gilbert. Pretty sure we'd be able to shuffle the pairings a bit and win with Beaulieu and Tinordi.

Hope this is the plan for the end of the season, cuz I'm just like everyone here. 1- Don't believe that these guys (Weaver, Allen, Gilbert, Gonchar) will bring us #25. 2- don't want to trade assets for rental on D.

[DON]

What other kind of d can they afford?

And not everyone thinks cant win as is or with a tweek/rental up front, not on back end.

[Habs30/31]

NB is on the second pair. His play has been much stronger since coming back up. No one (allen, weaver, gilbert) on the third pair will play well enough to knock him off. Next step is for Tinordi to step up and win a job on the third pair. Then as HR stated trade or steal a rental D with play off experience to play with JT.

[ICEWATER77]

Realistically, what can we get for weaver, allen, gilbert..or any combination of the 3? Will a roster forward/pick be thrown in as well? And which team has the roster/cap space?

[DON]

And adding 1 more bottom pairing d-man will do what exactly? When you say already got too many who arnt good enough, but want to add another who are better than Gonchar-Emelin-Allen and Weaver?

You want a Letang-type for dirt cheap, which of course is unrealistic.

I want Hossa or Perry playing with Galchenyuk, but simply aint happening neither.

[ICEWATER77]

I just don't think there's room or time to be experimenting with Allen/Weaver anymore..not with a beast like Tinordi waiting in the wings..winnepeg is hurting on defense with several long-term injuries. swap both A/W for a 2nd round pick

[DON]

Experimenting is an odd way to look at it, but is what Kings won with on back end, had several low-cost experienced 'character' d-men, didn't they?

Habs lack offense and have difficulty scoring, not terrible defending, so why are so many focused on low minute d-men, is beyond me?

[Habs30/31]

Experimenting is an odd way to look at it, but is what Kings won with on back end, had several low-cost experienced 'character' d-men, didn't they?

Habs lack offense and have difficulty scoring, not terrible defending, so why are so many focused on low minute d-men, is beyond me?

if you think gilbert or weaver would have played one second in the play off last season for the kings.............then you did not watch any of their games in the play offs

[DON]

Of course I didn't watch finals, is golf/fishing season at that time. June hockey is stupid and if Habs not playing, got less than zero interest.

[ICEWATER77]

The main reason we stumble offensively is largely due to the immobility of many defensemen. Subban, Markov, Emelin, Gonchar, Gilbert, Weaver, and Allen were a disaster, and when we cannot retrieve the puck, and clear it to the offense, we have trouble. I believe Beaulieu has supplanted Emelin in the top 4, permanently. Since he's been recalled, we're creating more chances offensively. I know, it's not solely because of NB, but it's also because Emelin has been demoted, and Weaver/Allen have been either injured, sick or scratched.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I hope ICE is right. If Beaulieu could emerge as a top-4 NHL defender - in actual fact, and not just in the fantasy life of fans - while Markov is still a legitimate minutes-eater, that would alter the profile of our D right there. That just makes sense, since this team is short at least one top-4 defenceman.

DON, in terms of adding another defender at the blueline, it wasn't a bottom-pairing guy I had in mind; more of an impact rental. But giving up young assets to get that rental is another question.

I feel that folks on this site are wrong to be agitated that the club has so many bottom-pairing defencemen hanging around. In a long playoff run, that kind of depth comes in very handy. It also creates internal competition. It's all to the good (unless, of course, we continue to feel that Beaulieu and Tinordi shouldn't have to earn their spots by outplaying Allen and Weaver - which, to my mind, should hardly be an impossible task, if they're as good as people think).

[hab29RETIRED]

How much of a chance has Tinordi been given to outplay Allen? I don't think Allen has played a decent game all year, yet he still was getting a chance before his injury/illness.

I have no problem with having extra depth Dmen, but they should have the ability to contribute as viable bottom pairing Dmen. Weaver fits the bill and is a great #6/7 dman to have around and is paid a reasonable salary for his role. The problem is when he is used on the 2nd pairing.

Allen is at best a 8th dman, but is paid like a #4. The guy can't skate, defend and is basically useless. There is no way he should even be considered over Tinordi.

Gilbert is also playing like a depth bottom pairing dman, but is getting paid like a #4. He has looked okay some games, awful others. At his best, I don't think he has looked as good as Beaulieu at his best, while Beaulieu hasn't been any worse than Gilbert.

Emelin is now playing like a bottom pairing dman and is getting paid like a 2nd pairing dman.

Nothing wrong with depth Dmen, but you can't have around $12m tied up on your bottom pairing and depth Dmen (emelin, Allen, Gilbert, weaver). Beaulieu hasn't looked any worse than them and I doubt Tinordi would be as bad as Allen, and may even be better than the other three if given a chance.

I hope ICE is right. If Beaulieu could emerge as a top-4 NHL defender - in actual fact, and not just in the fantasy life of fans - while Markov is still a legitimate minutes-eater, that would alter the profile of our D right there. That just makes sense, since this team is short at least one top-4 defenceman.

DON, in terms of adding another defender at the blueline, it wasn't a bottom-pairing guy I had in mind; more of an impact rental. But giving up young assets to get that rental is another question.

I feel that folks on this site are wrong to be agitated that the club has so many bottom-pairing defencemen hanging around. In a long playoff run, that kind of depth comes in very handy. It also creates internal competition. It's all to the good (unless, of course, we continue to feel that Beaulieu and Tinordi shouldn't have to earn their spots by outplaying Allen and Weaver - which, to my mind, should hardly be an impossible task, if they're as good as people think).

[DON]

The main reason we stumble offensively is largely due to the immobility of many defensemen. Subban, Markov, Emelin, Gonchar, Gilbert, Weaver, and Allen were a disaster, and when we cannot retrieve the puck, and clear it to the offense, we have trouble. I believe Beaulieu has supplanted Emelin in the top 4, permanently. Since he's been recalled, we're creating more chances offensively. I know, it's not solely because of NB, but it's also because Emelin has been demoted, and Weaver/Allen have been either injured, sick or scratched.

D-men cant help Gallagher, DD, Plekanec, Galchenyuk etc bury wide open chances that a Stamkos, Kessel do not miss on.

1 All Star forward of the lot (#67), if even that at present, has zero to do with defense.

Tinordi still has same point total as Beaulieu in less than 1/2 the games...fact, which is sad to say.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree with a lot of what you say, Habs29. However, I don't care about the players' salaries when it comes to evaluating our chances and our strengths and weaknesses this season. "Allen is overpaid" - who cares? He's off the books after this year. Emelin, I agree, is a more serious issue. His salary is based on his superb 2012-13 season. But he hasn't come close to that level of performance since then, and has indeed played more like a bottom-pairing guy; a good bottom-pairing guy, but still.

Tinordi "outplaying Weaver" means first that his play in Hamilton has to be sufficiently dominant that management feels he must be brought up. After that, it means the obvious, i.e., being reliably better than the alternatives. Thus far, Tinordi has simply failed to make the case for himself as a reliable NHLer. This idea that Bergevin wants Tinordi to fail is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure he wants the guy to emerge as a legit NHLer just as much as we do.

Beaulieu, meanwhile, has been gradually earning his roster spot. This is exactly as it should be.

The whole idea that Habs' management is dedicated to crushing young players is simply not borne out by any evidence. It's rooted in a religious belief that player X or Y MUST by definition be NHL ready. It's an obvious fallacy.

[Habs30/31]

D-men cant help Gallagher, DD, Plekanec, Galchenyuk etc bury wide open chances that a Stamkos, Kessel do not miss on.

1 All Star forward of the lot (#67), if even that at present, has zero to do with defense.

Tinordi still has same point total as Beaulieu in less than 1/2 the games...fact, which is sad to say.

watch some other games once in a while ............... every body including crosby and stampkos miss chances.

Its no secret among hockey fans that the habs are very strong in net, have a very good top two d, and are capable of scoring. Every team has a weak spot............the habs weak spot is defense , they are shallow. Period.

Off topic, when did emelin stop hitting? ......and i miss the days when pk through big hits. Now his physical game consists of punching guys in the back of the shoulder.

[hab29RETIRED]

Beaulieu has been better in Montreal than Hamilton the last two years. Beaulieu got a chance this year, not because he was lighting it up in AHL. He got a chance because our D has been horrible.

Now is the time to get Tinordi in the lineup and ready for the playoffs, not at the end of the year.

I agree with a lot of what you say, Habs29. However, I don't care about the players' salaries when it comes to evaluating our chances and our strengths and weaknesses this season. "Allen is overpaid" - who cares? He's off the books after this year. Emelin, I agree, is a more serious issue. His salary is based on his superb 2012-13 season. But he hasn't come close to that level of performance since then, and has indeed played more like a bottom-pairing guy; a good bottom-pairing guy, but still.

Tinordi "outplaying Weaver" means first that his play in Hamilton has to be sufficiently dominant that management feels he must be brought up. After that, it means the obvious, i.e., being reliably better than the alternatives. Thus far, Tinordi has simply failed to make the case for himself as a reliable NHLer. This idea that Bergevin wants Tinordi to fail is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure he wants the guy to emerge as a legit NHLer just as much as we do.

Beaulieu, meanwhile, has been gradually earning his roster spot. This is exactly as it should be.

The whole idea that Habs' management is dedicated to crushing young players is simply not borne out by any evidence. It's rooted in a religious belief that player X or Y MUST by definition be NHL ready. It's an obvious fallacy.

[JoeLassister]

Habs are 7-2 this season with Tinordi in the lineup.

He did put up 2 assists on the board but went minus 5.

In fact, he was a minus player for 4 of those 9 games. 2 of them we still won, 1 was the Tampa Bay Massacre and the last one could be argued to be "his fault", the one against Vancouver.

We have the goalie to back up our rookies' mistakes.

In my eyes, he was getting better with the puck, clearing the zone, less nervous and more patient.

My opinion : Should have stayed in the top 6 and played EVERY game so far. We would not have lost that many more games than we did anyway with all the other veterans.

There is no way Gilbert brings that much to the team that we go from winners to losers by replacing him with Tinordi. NO WAY.

At the end of the season, what's better ? A much more improved Tinordi or a Gilbert ? I, for one, choose Tinordi.

[hab29RETIRED]

100% agree. Ditto last year when a lineup spot was wasted on Murray.

Habs are 7-2 this season with Tinordi in the lineup.

He did put up 2 assists on the board but went minus 5.

In fact, he was a minus player for 4 of those 9 games. 2 of them we still won, 1 was the Tampa Bay Massacre and the last one could be argued to be "his fault", the one against Vancouver.

We have the goalie to back up our rookies' mistakes.

In my eyes, he was getting better with the puck, clearing the zone, less nervous and more patient.

My opinion : Should have stayed in the top 6 and played EVERY game so far. We would not have lost that many more games than we did anyway with all the other veterans.

There is no way Gilbert brings that much to the team that we go from winners to losers by replacing him with Tinordi. NO WAY.

At the end of the season, what's better ? A much more improved Tinordi or a Gilbert ? I, for one, choose Tinordi.

[Habs30/31]

Beaulieu has been better in Montreal than Hamilton the last two years. Beaulieu got a chance this year, not because he was lighting it up in AHL. He got a chance because our D has been horrible.

Now is the time to get Tinordi in the lineup and ready for the playoffs, not at the end of the year.

"this whole idea that habs management is dedicated to crushing young players is not borne out of any evidence"

no kidding.

never heard anyone ridiculously imply that there is "dedication" to not developing players. Just different opinions on 1. when certain players are deemed "ready" 2. Whether its best to go to the red wing way and leave them in the minors longer, or bring them up and let the developing continue at the nhl level. Both have worked throughout time and throughout the league. Thats why MB gets the big bucks though............it his call.

Worth noting however that Subban is the first Dman to come up through the habs ranks, that developed into a rock solid defense man. Last one being who? Markov? Drafted in 97? Before that Desjardins? Drafted in 87? I know since the turn of the century PK has been the only one that comes to mind.

Are they "dedicated to squashing young talent " ...of course not! Have they been inept at drafting and developing defenseman? Yes.

Both NB and JT are an opportunity to change that. Might explain why they are proceeding with apparent caution.

[KoRP]

Habs are 7-2 this season with Tinordi in the lineup.

He did put up 2 assists on the board but went minus 5.

In fact, he was a minus player for 4 of those 9 games. 2 of them we still won, 1 was the Tampa Bay Massacre and the last one could be argued to be "his fault", the one against Vancouver.

We have the goalie to back up our rookies' mistakes.

In my eyes, he was getting better with the puck, clearing the zone, less nervous and more patient.

My opinion : Should have stayed in the top 6 and played EVERY game so far. We would not have lost that many more games than we did anyway with all the other veterans.

There is no way Gilbert brings that much to the team that we go from winners to losers by replacing him with Tinordi. NO WAY.

At the end of the season, what's better ? A much more improved Tinordi or a Gilbert ? I, for one, choose Tinordi.

That's bang on...

[Habs30/31]

100% agree. Ditto last year when a lineup spot was wasted on Murray.

yep !