Jump to content

How many times do you fire GM and/or coach before you realize it's the team??


Habsfan1989
 Share

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, DON said:

 

Sure, go ask Damphousse to do your legal work for you next time you need a lawyer.  Sounds like a good idea.  Go ahead Don.  Would you let Damphousse be in charge of registering the deed to your house purchase? to writing your Will? 

 

Those are relatively easy jobs. 

 

Now let him write the 300 page CBA, working in a multi-billion dollar industry

 

People have education and training for certain things.  He might be a really smart guy, but that doesn't mean he has the training to do the legal work needed in the NHLPA. 

 

The alumni positions of the NHLPA are largely ceremonial positions.  They don't have the training and education to do the legal work. 

 

This is the same reason nearly every player hires an agent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have to draft them, but Montreal rarely drafts them in the Top 50.

 

Pretty annoying when teams like Tampa seem to trip and fall into new centres like it's nothing. Brayden Point was taken after Brett Lernout and quietly put up 40 points in his rookie year in 68 games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Bergevin on centers, paraphrased:

 

1. They're not available, ever, and don't you forget it.

2.  You have to draft them.

3. Alex Galchenyuk is a winger.

 

So, the greatest team need isn't avaliable, and they can't develop it when they have their pick of any center in an entire draft. Sounds like he's admitting he can't do his job and he should resign.

 

Bergevin's definition of a #1 center seemed to be someone that can put up 70+ points and be trusted in all situations on the ice. To his 1st and 2nd point, the list of those centermen that have been traded for or signed in free agency during his tenure is ridiculously small... Johansen, Spezza, Seguin, Ribeiro and Pominville. And it is a stretch to say they are trusted in all situations. So in that assessment, he's not wrong... #1 centremen are basically not available outside of the draft. (Mind you, Dallas traded for them twice... hmmm...)

 

A very quick scan of the drafts under Bergevin seems to show that no #1 centermen were available at the Habs selections at the draft. This somewhat absolves him and Timmins... they haven't missed out on any centermen. 

 

But the centermen Bergevin started his first season with were Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller, and White, and there were essentially 0 centre prospects on the depth chart... so clearly the issue at centre has been a long term one. And the centremen drafted under Bergevin (as per hockeydb) are: Galchenyuk, Vail, De La Rose, Crisp, Gregoire, Audette, Vejdemo, Bradley, Bitten, and Pezzetta. At best you can say 3 of those guys had reasonable top-6 potential when they were drafted. Only one had reasonable #1 potential. By Bergevin's own metric, Galchenyuk is it. That's his one shot at a #1 center. You would think he would be doing every ####ing thing possible to make sure that potential is reached.

 

Instead he's playing 4th line LW in the playoffs in the 5th year of his development, despite being 3rd in team scoring. 

 

tumblr_omnvr24TEy1rtxnnmo1_400.gif

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why don't they 

6 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

Bergevin's definition of a #1 center seemed to be someone that can put up 70+ points and be trusted in all situations on the ice. To his 1st and 2nd point, the list of those centermen that have been traded for or signed in free agency during his tenure is ridiculously small... Johansen, Spezza, Seguin, Ribeiro and Pominville. And it is a stretch to say they are trusted in all situations. So in that assessment, he's not wrong... #1 centremen are basically not available outside of the draft. (Mind you, Dallas traded for them twice... hmmm...)

 

A very quick scan of the drafts under Bergevin seems to show that no #1 centermen were available at the Habs selections at the draft. This somewhat absolves him and Timmins... they haven't missed out on any centermen. 

 

But the centermen Bergevin started his first season with were Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller, and White, and there were essentially 0 centre prospects on the depth chart... so clearly the issue at centre has been a long term one. And the centremen drafted under Bergevin (as per hockeydb) are: Galchenyuk, Vail, De La Rose, Crisp, Gregoire, Audette, Vejdemo, Bradley, Bitten, and Pezzetta. At best you can say 3 of those guys had reasonable top-6 potential when they were drafted. Only one had reasonable #1 potential. By Bergevin's own metric, Galchenyuk is it. That's his one shot at a #1 center. You would think he would be doing every ####ing thing possible to make sure that potential is reached.

 

Instead he's playing 4th line LW in the playoffs in the 5th year of his development, despite being 3rd in team scoring. 

 

tumblr_omnvr24TEy1rtxnnmo1_400.gif

 

I remember Timmons bragging about Vejdemo. 4 goals in 50 games this year. Maybe it's time to move on from Timmons? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

Bergevin's definition of a #1 center seemed to be someone that can put up 70+ points and be trusted in all situations on the ice. To his 1st and 2nd point, the list of those centermen that have been traded for or signed in free agency during his tenure is ridiculously small... Johansen, Spezza, Seguin, Ribeiro and Pominville. And it is a stretch to say they are trusted in all situations. So in that assessment, he's not wrong... #1 centremen are basically not available outside of the draft. (Mind you, Dallas traded for them twice... hmmm...)

 

A very quick scan of the drafts under Bergevin seems to show that no #1 centermen were available at the Habs selections at the draft. This somewhat absolves him and Timmins... they haven't missed out on any centermen. 

 

But the centermen Bergevin started his first season with were Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller, and White, and there were essentially 0 centre prospects on the depth chart... so clearly the issue at centre has been a long term one. And the centremen drafted under Bergevin (as per hockeydb) are: Galchenyuk, Vail, De La Rose, Crisp, Gregoire, Audette, Vejdemo, Bradley, Bitten, and Pezzetta. At best you can say 3 of those guys had reasonable top-6 potential when they were drafted. Only one had reasonable #1 potential. By Bergevin's own metric, Galchenyuk is it. That's his one shot at a #1 center. You would think he would be doing every ####ing thing possible to make sure that potential is reached.

 

Instead he's playing 4th line LW in the playoffs in the 5th year of his development, despite being 3rd in team scoring. 

 

tumblr_omnvr24TEy1rtxnnmo1_400.gif

 

Excellent post, as was Lovett's. Bergevin is Mr Excuses. 

 

Apparently there are as many as five impact C in this year's draft. OK, how about moving up? Oh, forgot, it's 'tough' to do that. Just like it's tough to make a trade that actually improves your club. And it's tough to draft top-6 players. And it's tough to develop your #3 overall pick into a top-6 C. And it's tough to match your tie to your blazer. It's probably tough to tie shoelaces and order good smoked meat. I am so sick of this crap. Five years of treading water and he's still giving us this garbage about how his job is too 'tough.' PAS D'EXCUSES.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

Bergevin's definition of a #1 center seemed to be someone that can put up 70+ points and be trusted in all situations on the ice. To his 1st and 2nd point, the list of those centermen that have been traded for or signed in free agency during his tenure is ridiculously small... Johansen, Spezza, Seguin, Ribeiro and Pominville. And it is a stretch to say they are trusted in all situations. So in that assessment, he's not wrong... #1 centremen are basically not available outside of the draft. (Mind you, Dallas traded for them twice... hmmm...)

Dallas trading for 2 good centres...at the expense of having a shitty defense who cant defend and were 29th and 25th in goals against then missing playoffs this year. And you are saying that is good model you would like to see Bergy follow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Yeah, it's time to move on from Timmins. His track record since 2008 is mediocre at best.

 

I wouldn't mind a separate thread on this question. In today's league it is indispensable to have a strong talent pipeline. Where is ours?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, DON said:

Dallas trading for 2 good centres...at the expense of having a shitty defense who cant defend and were 29th and 25th in goals against then missing playoffs this year. And you are saying that is good model you would like to see Bergy follow?

 

No, I didn't say that. I noted the oddity that of the five trades in five years involving #1 centremen, Dallas somehow did it twice.

 

While we're on the subject though, Dallas gave up one defensemen in those 2 deals, Joe Morrow, so the trades themselves didn't effect the Stars shitty defense. The contracts themselves are both reasonable for top 6 forwards (heck Seguin is a bargain), so it's not like they are hampering them cap-wise.

 

Dallas is anchored by paying Lehtonen 5.9 million, Niemi 4.5 million, and the organization has only drafted one notable NHL defenseman in over a decade, and you think Dallas' problem defending is because they got two #1 centremen for Loui Eriksson and a bunch of spare parts? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

No, I didn't say that. I noted the oddity that of the five trades in five years involving #1 centremen, Dallas somehow did it twice.

 

While we're on the subject though, Dallas gave up one defensemen in those 2 deals, Joe Morrow, so the trades themselves didn't effect the Stars shitty defense. The contracts themselves are both reasonable for top 6 forwards (heck Seguin is a bargain), so it's not like they are hampering them cap-wise.

 

Dallas is anchored by paying Lehtonen 5.9 million, Niemi 4.5 million, and the organization has only drafted one notable NHL defenseman in over a decade, and you think Dallas' problem defending is because they got two #1 centremen for Loui Eriksson and a bunch of spare parts? 

And my main point is that..sure they added to nice centres; while ignoring the rest of roster and is biting them in the ass big time.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, DON said:

Dallas trading for 2 good centres...at the expense of having a shitty defense who cant defend and were 29th and 25th in goals against then missing playoffs this year. And you are saying that is good model you would like to see Bergy follow?

Do you even know who were involved in those trades, or do just dislike skilled players???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, DON said:

And my main point is that..sure they added to nice centres; while ignoring the rest of roster and is biting them in the ass big time.

 

As opposed to MB who just keeps asking 3rd and 4th liners, or 6th/7th amen yet still has lousy 3rd and 4th liners and defence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Sure, go ask Damphousse to do your legal work for you next time you need a lawyer.  Sounds like a good idea.  Go ahead Don.  Would you let Damphousse be in charge of registering the deed to your house purchase? to writing your Will? 

 

Those are relatively easy jobs. 

 

Now let him write the 300 page CBA, working in a multi-billion dollar industry

 

People have education and training for certain things.  He might be a really smart guy, but that doesn't mean he has the training to do the legal work needed in the NHLPA. 

 

The alumni positions of the NHLPA are largely ceremonial positions.  They don't have the training and education to do the legal work. 

 

This is the same reason nearly every player hires an agent. 

What is the difference between God and a lawyer?

God dosent think he is a Lawyer.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Do you even know who were involved in those trades, or do just dislike skilled players???

:rolleyes:

 

26 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

As opposed to MB who just keeps asking 3rd and 4th liners, or 6th/7th amen yet still has lousy 3rd and 4th liners and defence.

Quite a cynical mish-mash of words you put together, good work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DON said:

And my main point is that..sure they added to nice centres; while ignoring the rest of roster and is biting them in the ass big time.

 

Right, but have the Stars been forced to ignore the rest of the roster because of those trades? Or was that always a failure of the Dallas organization? 

 

They didn't lose many assets in the deals, holy shit they ####ing fleeced both teams handily. They weren't put in salary cap hell with those trades, son of a bitch those ####ers could have traded for Spezza twice and still been fine cap-wise for 2 years. What is the connection between Dallas trading for Spezza & Seguin, and them misreading their defense and goaltending?

 

I think your main point is made up of two completely unrelated truths: They added good centres. They ignored the rest of the roster. But they didn't ignore the rest of the roster because they added good centres. Why try to shoehorn them together?

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

Right, but have the Stars been forced to ignore the rest of the roster because of those trades? Or was that always a failure of the Dallas organization? 

 

They didn't lose many assets in the deals, holy shit they ####ing fleeced both teams handily. They weren't put in salary cap hell with those trades, son of a bitch those ####ers could have traded for Spezza twice and still been fine cap-wise for 2 years. What is the connection between Dallas trading for Spezza & Seguin, and them misreading their defense and goaltending?

 

I think your main point is made up of two completely unrelated truths: They added good centres. They ignored the rest of the roster. But they didn't ignore the rest of the roster because they added good centres. Why try to shoehorn them together?

 

Agreed. 

 

They didn't ignore the rest of the roster.  They spend a shit ton on goaltending, its just shitty goaltending.  The centres don't stop them from spending nearly 9 million on goalies, but those goalies suck.  Its kinda like how we spend 6 million on Plekanec, but he's not a top 6 centre anymore.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DON can rationalize the team's extended failure to solve its most glaring problem - lack of offensive talent up front, especially down the middle - 'til the cows come home. It doesn't matter. This team will not win a damned thing until it solves that problem. So excuses are simply irrelevant. It has to get done, by hook or by crook. And please note that we're not just talking about a thin UFA pool this summer. We're talking about five frigging years of sustained inability to acquire even a decent #2C, let alone a #1.

 

At this point, I won't even obsess over the mystical #1 C. I'll settle for two legitimate #2C, or two #1As. ANYTHING better than the current scenario of two #3C playing in the top 6. So let's focus on getting legitimate top-6 C regardless of whether or not they are Connor McDavid, OK? Or should we make excuses for that too? I know, Marc, I know, it's 'tough' :rolleyes: Your job, it's just so damned 'tough.' Let me get you a playpen so you don't hurt yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Trizzak said:

 

Right, but have the Stars been forced to ignore the rest of the roster because of those trades? Who said they were forced?  Or was that always a failure of the Dallas organization? Who cares and what does that have to do with non-success of adding 2 top six centres and fleecing other GMs? Nill was lauded as a "SUPER GM" in part for these trades! Hab fans would of still roasted Bergevin if did exact same deals and missed playoffs a couple years later.

 

They didn't lose many assets in the deals, holy shit they ####ing fleeced both teams handily. Again, what does that have to do with adding 2 centres and still sucking? They weren't put in salary cap hell with those trades, son of a bitch those ####ers could have traded for Spezza twice and still been fine cap-wise for 2 years. Not sure what that is in relation to? What is the connection between Dallas trading for Spezza & Seguin, and them misreading their defense and goaltending? Who said they did?

 

I think your main point is made up of two completely unrelated truths: They added good centres. They ignored the rest of the roster. But they didn't ignore the rest of the roster because they added good centres. Why try to shoehorn them together? Gobbly-gook!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DON said:

Who cares and what does that have to do with non-success of adding 2 top six centres and fleecing other GMs? Nill was lauded as a "SUPER GM" in part for these trades! Hab fans would of still roasted Bergevin if did exact same deals and missed playoffs a couple years later.

 

Again, what does that have to do with adding 2 centres and still sucking?

 

 

Good god, man. Are you actually arguing that Dallas sucks BECAUSE they made these deals? 

 

Are you completely opposed to the idea that Dallas is an even worse team without Spezza and Seguin? 

 

In your scenario of Bergevin making those exact same deals, does he also handcuff himself into a below-average goaltending tandem making a combined 10.4 million till 2018-19? Does he also fail to draft more than one serviceable defenseman for a decade? Does he also trade away more good defensemen than he brings in? Because without all those other factors, that team is making the playoffs consistently.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

I dare anyone to tell me what Ottawa got back for Spezza without looking it up.

Chiasson and a jockstrap ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

to be fair.  Spezza's no trade clause included every Canadian team, and I doubt Boston was trading Seguin to the Habs. 

 

On the other hand.  Ryan O'Reilly is a top line centre, and there is no reason the Avalanche wouldn't deal him here. 

Jeff Carter would be our #1 centre and he was traded twice. 

Ryan Johanssen was moved. 
Bergevin didn't bid on Eric Staal. 
Ryan Kesler was traded (though he may have been like Spezza with a NTC to Canadian teams)
Kyle Turris was traded
 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Commandant said:

to be fair.  Spezza's no trade clause included every Canadian team, and I doubt Boston was trading Seguin to the Habs. 

 

On the other hand.  Ryan O'Reilly is a top line centre, and there is no reason the Avalanche wouldn't deal him here. Other than Habs didn't have 3 good looking prospects + a 2nd pick to offer up, so there is good reason he isn't a Hab.

Jeff Carter would be our #1 centre and he was traded twice. In 2011 Habs didn't have a top ten draft pick to offer up as Columbus did.

Ryan Johanssen was moved. And likely for Sergachev package Habs could land a centre...pick your poison (you already said you wouldn't for Duchene)
Bergevin didn't bid on Eric Staal. Who would of, he was washed up, limited bidders I imagine?
Ryan Kesler was traded (though he may have been like Spezza with a NTC to Canadian teams) Was not and is not ever coming to Montreal
Kyle Turris was also traded in 2011, so Habs equal would be Tinordi and 2nd pick (which didn't have), for a player who was playing in AHL as much as he was NHL over several years. HabsFans would of freaked trading away Tinordi (at that time)
 

So all I all, you posted a good argument why Habs have not got a #1 centre.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DON said:

So all I all, you posted a good argument why Habs have not got a #1 centre.

You're really gunning hard to get a press secretary/damage control rep for MB aren't you??

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...