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36 points in 27 playoff games is PROVEN PLAYOFF PRODUCTION. O'Byrne never got a fair chance and he would drop the gloves and clear the crease,two important things Emelin won't do

Agreed on O'Byrne. Something else he could do is stop that dam cycling. Jm just run out of patience with younger guys, not to mention that he would stick up for his mates. Jm would rather have players that would cowel and run, rather than somebody who would push back.

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O'Byrne is getting the 6th most Even Strength ice time of all defencemen on a Colorado.

Colorado has given up the 7th most goals in the NHL.

He is given sheltered matchups and is not put on the ice for key situations by the avalanche who have a poor defensive record.

What does this tell us about the guy's ability?

He is a 7th/8th defenceman on a good NHL team. He's also 27 years old, and has not shown little improvement since he first came up with the habs in 2008. We have enough of these types on the team. What we need is more guys who are true top 4 Defencemen, as we only have 2 guys who are that right now. He's not the answer to the problems that plague our defence (and I admit our defence does have problems).

The hand-wringing over this guy, when we recieved a very good prospect in return for him, is ridiculous.

Habs fans in general have become so obsessed with size and toughness that as a fanbase we have become willing to ignore talent in favour of those attributes. I'm all for a big, physical, nasty defenceman in our top 4, but we don't need a guy like Ryan O'Byrne, we need a guy who is actually capable of playing against the oppositions top 6 forwards, not another #6/7/8 guy.

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O'Byrne is getting the 6th most Even Strength ice time of all defencemen on a Colorado.

Colorado has given up the 7th most goals in the NHL.

He is given sheltered matchups and is not put on the ice for key situations by the avalanche who have a poor defensive record.

What does this tell us about the guy's ability?

He is a 7th/8th defenceman on a good NHL team. He's also 27 years old, and has not shown little improvement since he first came up with the habs in 2008. We have enough of these types on the team. What we need is more guys who are true top 4 Defencemen, as we only have 2 guys who are that right now. He's not the answer to the problems that plague our defence (and I admit our defence does have problems).

The hand-wringing over this guy, when we recieved a very good prospect in return for him, is ridiculous.

Habs fans in general have become so obsessed with size and toughness that as a fanbase we have become willing to ignore talent in favour of those attributes. I'm all for a big, physical, nasty defenceman in our top 4, but we don't need a guy like Ryan O'Byrne, we need a guy who is actually capable of playing against the oppositions top 6 forwards, not another #6/7/8 guy.

Actually it was the best move ever for O'Byrne. Last I seen was Colorado was doing all right, with limited depth. Like anybody else, O'Byrne would look better on a better team. I suppose you are going to say the same about SK and D'agostini

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Apologies for the delayed response

The decision on Price vs Halak was also correct. Halak still has the same problems he had in Montreal... good goalie but can't start more than 50 games in a season. Price is a thoroughbred going 65-75 games.

Agreed. I don't have any issue with the Halak trade...

Without Wiz, we don't make the playoffs last year. No doubt about that in my mind. None whatsoever.Note that this is a business... I'm sure the 6-9 million in playoff revenue is useful for something in terms of helping this team going forward.

Also what are the intangible benefits to the playoff experience that subban, eller, price, desharnais, weber, white, recieved in this series?

What are the benefits of being a playoff team in the eyes of UFA Erik Cole, and other UFAs?

None of this goes into your analysis though, we didnt' win the cup; therefore trading a pick is bad. Guess what 29 teams don't win the cup, and many of them trade picks and prospects..

Making the playoffs is great...and it's good to know your crystal ball tells you we don't make it without Wiz (and I don't disagree that he produced during his limited time). Trading a good potential future player/prospect/ASSET for a rental just to help scrape into the playoffs is a bad organizational move that screams short term thinking. You don't win in the NHL thinking about tomorrow only.

As for the "intangibles" of a playoff drive that may, or may not, happen is a rather pointless argument when you don't know they wouldn't have made it. It's an excuse.

Okay, so the trade that you don't like we'll just erase from the ledger as if it didn't happen?

Why? Because you say its not relevant to the assessment of a GM? But the deal where we trade a 2nd for a Dman is relevant. Inherrent contradiction in your post. .

No, it's not relevant because it was a depth move for a prospect that may or may not pan out. Bournival is so far away from playing, and isn't exactly a blue chip prospect, so what's the point of bringing it up???

I think Ramo has almost 0 value with the NHL goalies available and the fact he's not leaving Europe unless you guarantee him starter money and a starter's job. On top of that Bourque has outrproduced Cammalleri. The timing of the deal is all wrong, but the actual assets returned considering Cammy's contract and the way he's playing were very fair value. I just wish we didn't trade him when his value was at its lowest point.

.

If you admit that Cammy's value was low and that this is fair market value based on current production then you admit that it wasn't a fair return. Considering he didn't shop around for a deal it's clear that we have no idea what the market value was/is. I think it's very likely that Cammy would have netted a much better return in a trade deadline bidding scenario. Perhaps with a 1st round pick and a better prospect to go with a player of Bourque's level...but that's all speculation now and Gauthier and the media will hide behind the skirts of current production. Ramo's value may be limited but I think it's also fair to say that Holland's is equally low...

Last I checked, the GM's job is not to be a doctor. The team doctor's job is to be a doctor. The team doctor told PG that Markov was progressing well and would be ready to play this season. If that hasn't happened, then maybe a new doctor is required, but I'm not gonna blame the GM for that.

Sure... 4.25 million for a 45-50 pt puck moving defenceman who plays on average 16-18 minutes per game when we have a normal lineup... lets talk about that... and analyze the cap hit of similar puck moving defencemenI posted this elsewhere.

Seems to me that 4.25 for what Kaberle brings is fair market value for that type of player. 16 games, 9 pts -1 since joining Montreal.

.

The buck stops with the boss. You really want to blame the doctor? Oh well, why blame anyone in charge when anything goes wrong...it was clearly the fault of someone they delegate responsibility to...jebus. Leadership/management owns the responsiblity of those working for them.

Kaberle was flaming out bad...it's been widely reported that they were more then happy to dump his salary and almost no one thought they could find a taker. Sure, he produces in-season and dies in the playoffs...but I guess that's all you want to see so we can work on intangibles.

Of course the impact on our cap beyond this season is a non-issue right? A good GM knows that cap flexibility is important. Gauthier has never bothered with it...he was integral in the Gomez trade, brought in Kaberle, signed Markov while injured, etc...but hey, "nothing to see here folks, keep moving along".

Gauthier took a team (especially if you include his influence on deals/signings while Gainey was still GM) that had one of the best farm systems in hockey (albeit with some issues around talent development), was a mid-tier playoff team with aspirations to go further and a flexible salary situation. Today we have a less then appealing cap situation (I'd call it bad considering some of our key players are not expensive), we're out of the playoffs and our farm system is a shell of what it was...and graduating talent isn't the reason the farm system is stumbling (where have all our 2nd round picks gone? is just one reason)

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Apologies for the delayed response

Agreed. I don't have any issue with the Halak trade...

Making the playoffs is great...and it's good to know your crystal ball tells you we don't make it without Wiz (and I don't disagree that he produced during his limited time). Trading a good potential future player/prospect/ASSET for a rental just to help scrape into the playoffs is a bad organizational move that screams short term thinking. You don't win in the NHL thinking about tomorrow only.

As for the "intangibles" of a playoff drive that may, or may not, happen is a rather pointless argument when you don't know they wouldn't have made it. It's an excuse.

Here's an important point, especially with what you argue later about Bournival.

They traded the 50th Overall pick for Wiz.... 50th overall.... the very definition of a prospect that "may or may not turn out".

So you argue out of both sides of your mouth here. The 50th overall pick was important, and asset not to be given away lightly... but Bournival is a guy who may or may not turn out and is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't get how you've come to this conclusion.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that the Habs don't make the playoffs without Wiz. For a team that finished 6th in the conference his rejuvenation of a dying PP, and his ability to suck up 20+ minutes per game at the defensive end were absolutely invaluable. I don't need a crystal ball to see the value he had on this team, and the effect he produced in getting us to the playoffs. And I guarantee that the vast majority of posters here agree with me, that without Wiz, we would have missed the playoffs last season.

No, it's not relevant because it was a depth move for a prospect that may or may not pan out. Bournival is so far away from playing, and isn't exactly a blue chip prospect, so what's the point of bringing it up???

As I stated, Bournival, who has 21 goals in 22 games this season and was good enough to play for the WJC team, is a very good prospect.

Is he a sure thing? Of course not, but no less so than the 50th overall pick who was traded away.

So absolutely he's relevant to the discussion.

If you admit that Cammy's value was low and that this is fair market value based on current production then you admit that it wasn't a fair return.

Thats not what I said.

1) Cammy got fair value for what he was worth on the day he was traded.

2) Cammy should never have been traded on the day he was traded, because he was traded on a day where his value was at absolute rock bottom during his stay in Montreal.

If you don't see the subtlety here. You should perhaps read it again.

Considering he didn't shop around for a deal it's clear that we have no idea what the market value was/is.

We don't know this.

All we know is that one anonymous GM said he wasn't aware Cammy was available, and he didn't get a chance to put in an offer.

Firstly we don't know that this GM is being truthful, it might just be an excuse to make himself look good for not going after Cammy.

Secondly, Cammy had a limited NTC where there were 7 teams he could not be traded to. We don't know that this GM wasn't the GM of one of those 7 teams.

I think it's very likely that Cammy would have netted a much better return in a trade deadline bidding scenario. Perhaps with a 1st round pick and a better prospect to go with a player of Bourque's level...but that's all speculation now and Gauthier and the media will hide behind the skirts of current production.

This is entirely based on speculation that there were no other bids. As pointed out above, we don't know this to be the case.

Ramo's value may be limited but I think it's also fair to say that Holland's is equally low...

Sure, Ramo and Holland both have limited value.

However a 2nd is certainly more value than a 5th, wouldn't you agree?

The buck stops with the boss. You really want to blame the doctor? Oh well, why blame anyone in charge when anything goes wrong...it was clearly the fault of someone they delegate responsibility to...jebus. Leadership/management owns the responsiblity of those working for them.

Sure they do.... But there is a big difference when its a scout, or a coach, or hockey personnel that is under Gauthier's expertise, and he should be monitoring and should catch their mistakes as they are happening.

When we are talking about a doctor, in a totally different field than the manager, well then that person gets the opportunity to screw up completely, before they are replaced by someone more competent, and before it gets labelled the incompetence of a GM.

Kaberle was flaming out bad...it's been widely reported that they were more then happy to dump his salary and almost no one thought they could find a taker. Sure, he produces in-season and dies in the playoffs...but I guess that's all you want to see so we can work on intangibles.

Kaberle was a piece that Canes didn't want... I agree. However, what did we give up to get him? A 38 year old defenceman with a contract nearly as high, who sucked when he played last season, and who hasn't played much this season because he'd been through a ton of injuries. So it wasn't like we gave up anything of value for Kaberle.

On top of that... since arriving... Kaberle has 11 pts in 19 games and is an even +/- rating.

Meanwhile another puck moving defenceman who has 15 pts in 36 games and is a -6 (on a much better team) just signed an 18.4 million dollar deal for 4 years today.

Kaberle may be older, but his contract is also shorter than Goligoski.

And 4.25 million as a cap hit, is fair market value for the points he's producing and the level of play he brings.

As for What Kaberle did in the playoffs... He was bostons leading producer on the PP, and scored more pts than any defenceman on their team in the playoffs last year (including Zdeno Chara).

Of course the impact on our cap beyond this season is a non-issue right? A good GM knows that cap flexibility is important. Gauthier has never bothered with it...he was integral in the Gomez trade, brought in Kaberle, signed Markov while injured, etc...but hey, "nothing to see here folks, keep moving along".

Gomez's 7 million for 40 pts of production is bad value... no one disputes this.

Markov can sit on LTIR if injured.

Kaberle is fair market value for his production.

I don't see how they are comparable.

Gauthier took a team (especially if you include his influence on deals/signings while Gainey was still GM) that had one of the best farm systems in hockey (albeit with some issues around talent development), was a mid-tier playoff team with aspirations to go further and a flexible salary situation. Today we have a less then appealing cap situation (I'd call it bad considering some of our key players are not expensive), we're out of the playoffs and our farm system is a shell of what it was...and graduating talent isn't the reason the farm system is stumbling (where have all our 2nd round picks gone? is just one reason)

For all the picks traded away.... Gauthier also acquired

A 1st round pick (Lars Eller)

A 2nd round pick (Aaron Palushaj)

Third round picks (Bournival and Shultz)

and had

Desharnais and Diaz both emerge as legit NHLers despite being undrafted.

for guys who had no place in montreal. However these assets added to the system are never taken into account when we talk about the GM duties in Montreal.

Its all whining about the 2nd round pick traded for Wiz, but the prospect added in the O'Byrne deal is irrelevant for some reason, a reason that still hasn't been explained in a logical manner.

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Kaberle was a piece that Canes didn't want... I agree. However, what did we give up to get him? A 38 year old defenceman with a contract nearly as high, who sucked when he played last season, and who hasn't played much this season because he'd been through a ton of injuries. So it wasn't like we gave up anything of value for Kaberle.

On top of that... since arriving... Kaberle has 11 pts in 19 games and is an even +/- rating.

Meanwhile another puck moving defenceman who has 15 pts in 36 games and is a -6 (on a much better team) just signed an 18.4 million dollar deal for 4 years today.

Kaberle may be older, but his contract is also shorter than Goligoski.

And 4.25 million as a cap hit, is fair market value for the points he's producing and the level of play he brings.

As for What Kaberle did in the playoffs... He was bostons leading producer on the PP, and scored more pts than any defenceman on their team in the playoffs last year (including Zdeno Chara).

Also, as noted in Brian's HW recap, Kaberle is currently the leading point getter on the Habs defense (Carolina stats included.)

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The trading of Cammalleri was also suspect. Again good return based on Cammalleri's play this season, and this season only... but just the timing of it, all wrong.

Also if forced to fire Martin, then fine, fire him... but don't apologize to the media for hiring the guy.

His no speaking to the media except for rare occassions stance also hurts him, and the club, as they allow narratives to spin out of control without quashing them early like Gainey did with Brisebois and Koivu.

Again, I like the hockey moves he's making, but the management game seems off.

I agree with this. But even Gainey was pretty unpopular for his final two or three years as GM.

Huh? Gainey made few bad decisions IMO...Gauthier has been brutal and frankly is one of the most overrated executives in the game. He was awful before coming here and has been awful since arriving. The trades have been ridiculous and listless. The signings brutal. The PR brutal. The lack of leadership is beyond bad. WHAT has he done well???

Him aside the Habs long term problem remains prospect development...they draft well and, aside from blue chip prospects, they have no player development plan. I don't blame Gauthier alone for this since it's been happening for 2 decades.

The 2nd long term issue is media influence over personnel decisions...another decades long problem that real leadership can resolve...

The organization is broken. Rebuild it all.

You're exaggerating.

His trades:

2nd for Dominic Moore

2nd for Wisniewski

Spacek for Kaberle

Halak for Eller+

D'Agostini for Palushaj

Maxwell + 4th for Sopel and Dawes

O'Byrne for whatever pick we got for him

Lapierre for a 5th

Russell for Blunden

All of these are either great moves, good moves, or moves so small that they don't make much difference either way (the final five I listed).

The Cammalleri trade was a good move for the organization, it's just disappointing because we have the feeling that he could have been worth more at the deadline.

The Sergei Kostitsyn trade looks bad in hindsight but I remember it being popular at the time. Kostitsyn demanded a trade many times, openly had problems with the coach, was supposedly a cancer in the dressing room,and looked like a marginal NHLer on the ice. Most of us were happy to get rid of him, and I personally don't even regret the move.

As for signings:

He finally brought in Emelin. Brought Diaz too.

Markov signing.

Gorges re-signing.

Gill re-signing.

Cole signing.

Boyd signing.

Campoli signing.

Nokelainen signing.

Budaj signing.

I support every one of these moves without resorting to hindsight (like Campoli getting seriously injured). They all made and make sense to me. The Markov one was risky, but again, the majority supported that move at the time it was made. Gauthier did not inspect Markov personally, he can, like every other GM, only base his decisions on the medical reports he's given, all of which said Markov would be back months ago. That isn't to say that it's the doctors' faults, just that Gauthier had no reason to expect a setback in Markov's recovery. He could have been more cautious but it certainly wasn't an obviously bad move, and still isn't.

As for drafting, it's too early to tell. At the present time, there doesn't seem to be any major problems with the drafting since he became GM.

What has he done well? Make sensible move after sensible move given the information available at the time. He hasn't been good at PR but no GM or coach would be in Montreal when the team is losing. For all the talk of him caving in to fan and media pressure, this is the guy that traded Halak when he was the hero of the city.

edit - as for Gainey, I supported all his moves until he fired Carbonneau. After that, he went a bit crazy. Maybe the Martin firing was that point for Gauthier but I really suspect he was forced to fire Martin against his wishes.

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Gauthier's individual moves have generally been fine, when looked at in isolation.

His GMing this season has, when taken as a whole, been reactive and incoherent - the actions of a man without any plan. Acquire Kaberle to help the coach, then immediately fire the coach; fire the coach to please players like Cammy, then trade Cammy. This incoherence is dangerous and destructive (e.g., we should either have Martin or Cammy. Due to his incoherence, we have neither).

Now, if he is being forced to do these things by Molson, then we're in deep merde no matter who the GM is. But if he is the primary author of his own decisions then he should be canned, not for individual mistakes, but for failing to respond to the crisis with the necessary sang-froid and vision. Bring someone in who can restore a true direction for this franchise. That's what leaders are for.

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I agree with this. But even Gainey was pretty unpopular for his final two or three years as GM.

You're exaggerating.

His trades:

2nd for Dominic Moore

2nd for Wisniewski

Spacek for Kaberle

Halak for Eller+

D'Agostini for Palushaj

Maxwell + 4th for Sopel and Dawes

O'Byrne for whatever pick we got for him

Lapierre for a 5th

Russell for Blunden

All of these are either great moves, good moves, or moves so small that they don't make much difference either way (the final five I listed).

The Cammalleri trade was a good move for the organization, it's just disappointing because we have the feeling that he could have been worth more at the deadline.

The Sergei Kostitsyn trade looks bad in hindsight but I remember it being popular at the time. Kostitsyn demanded a trade many times, openly had problems with the coach, was supposedly a cancer in the dressing room,and looked like a marginal NHLer on the ice. Most of us were happy to get rid of him, and I personally don't even regret the move.

As for signings:

He finally brought in Emelin. Brought Diaz too.

Markov signing.

Gorges re-signing.

Gill re-signing.

Cole signing.

Boyd signing.

Campoli signing.

Nokelainen signing.

Budaj signing.

I support every one of these moves without resorting to hindsight (like Campoli getting seriously injured). They all made and make sense to me. The Markov one was risky, but again, the majority supported that move at the time it was made. Gauthier did not inspect Markov personally, he can, like every other GM, only base his decisions on the medical reports he's given, all of which said Markov would be back months ago. That isn't to say that it's the doctors' faults, just that Gauthier had no reason to expect a setback in Markov's recovery. He could have been more cautious but it certainly wasn't an obviously bad move, and still isn't.

As for drafting, it's too early to tell. At the present time, there doesn't seem to be any major problems with the drafting since he became GM.

What has he done well? Make sensible move after sensible move given the information available at the time. He hasn't been good at PR but no GM or coach would be in Montreal when the team is losing. For all the talk of him caving in to fan and media pressure, this is the guy that traded Halak when he was the hero of the city.

edit - as for Gainey, I supported all his moves until he fired Carbonneau. After that, he went a bit crazy. Maybe the Martin firing was that point for Gauthier but I really suspect he was forced to fire Martin against his wishes.

This can't be a serious post. The majority of those moves were awful,and you are in a small minority approving the job PG has done or approving the majority of those moves. Those moves have contributed to our place in the standings.We are a bottom feeder because of these moves and the immediate future is stalled with cap srangling and immovable contracts. Horrible,horrible management.As bad as any in the NHL

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This can't be a serious post. The majority of those moves were awful,and you are in a small minority approving the job PG has done or approving the majority of those moves. Those moves have contributed to our place in the standings.We are a bottom feeder because of these moves and the immediate future is stalled with cap srangling and immovable contracts. Horrible,horrible management.As bad as any in the NHL

BTH offers a long list of moves that, looked at with any degree of objectivity, are solid. This is consistent with his track record elsewhere - small moves, generally for the better. The issue is not his 'moves' but the manner in which they've been executed: no vision, no plan, just desperate scrambling leading to blatantly contradictory decisions, not to mention a total bungling of the media narrative. A horrible performance in a crisis that is sufficient justification for replacing him with someone who can restore order.

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What I dont understand is how people expected alot more for Cammy... and still thought we overpayed for Kaberle when they kinda were in the same situations. If Cammy is worth a 1st rounder from what he has done this last year then Kaberle is too.

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BTH offers a long list of moves that, looked at with any degree of objectivity, are solid. This is consistent with his track record elsewhere - small moves, generally for the better. The issue is not his 'moves' but the manner in which they've been executed: no vision, no plan, just desperate scrambling leading to blatantly contradictory decisions, not to mention a total bungling of the media narrative. A horrible performance in a crisis that is sufficient justification for replacing him with someone who can restore order.

No B.S, I really don't like any of his moves. 2nd for Wiz was good,but we lost him,Gorges could have been signed cheaper and less term, Cole is our best player this year,but I have the feeling we won't be happy with that in 2 years.Those are his "best" 3 moves imo.Every other move either left me,meh feeling,or I hated/hate them.My opinion.Just for one,you think Campoli was a solid move when the like of O'Brien and Vandermeer were available. Or bidding against ourselves for Markov. 1 year yes,but THREE !!

Edited by lafrous10

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This can't be a serious post. The majority of those moves were awful,and you are in a small minority approving the job PG has done or approving the majority of those moves. Those moves have contributed to our place in the standings.We are a bottom feeder because of these moves and the immediate future is stalled with cap srangling and immovable contracts. Horrible,horrible management.As bad as any in the NHL

I completely agree with BTH.

Each move individually makes sense. You don`t seem to look at anything objectively. Moore was needed, Wiz was needed, you discredit Cole before seeing how he will play, people complain about signing Markov to the 3 year... who says he would have signed a 1 year? Do we know this? In that case he made the right move signing Georges for one just in case his knee blew. Campoli was brought in to serve as a puck mover till Markov was back and to try to limit PK's minutes. Makes sense. O'Bryne wasn't fitting into the roster, Lapierre wanted out, we needed help on the pp so he got Kaberle (though he has a bad contract once we ditch Gomez it's irrelevant), he also cleared capspace by dealing Cammy who hadn't performed up to HIS salary in Montreal, a small scorer who couldn't score and was regularly injured. That was what Cammy was in Montreal. We loved his playoff success but he wasn't helping us get there. Bourque is cheaper has scored more then Cammy over the past few seasons and plays some form of a physical game. Plus we got a second round pick out of it.

To counter some peoples post on a lack of direction with the club. I believe they have found some. They are making the team bigger, Cole, Eller, Bourque, Blunden, bringing Emelin over. We are getting bigger. We have made some moves to try and balance out not having Markov, but if we had Markov PG would be looking like a great gm. His handling of coaching and the media was terrible. Martin was fired at a bad time and then he ran a bus over Cunnyworth by apologizing... but his "hockey" moves have been really good IMO.

I believe you need to look at the moves more in depth and stop getting swept up in the media frenzy about how the team needs to be blown up and the management beheaded.

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I completely agree with BTH.

Each move individually makes sense. You don`t seem to look at anything objectively. Moore was needed, Wiz was needed, you discredit Cole before seeing how he will play, people complain about signing Markov to the 3 year... who says he would have signed a 1 year? Do we know this? In that case he made the right move signing Georges for one just in case his knee blew. Campoli was brought in to serve as a puck mover till Markov was back and to try to limit PK's minutes. Makes sense. O'Bryne wasn't fitting into the roster, Lapierre wanted out, we needed help on the pp so he got Kaberle (though he has a bad contract once we ditch Gomez it's irrelevant), he also cleared capspace by dealing Cammy who hadn't performed up to HIS salary in Montreal, a small scorer who couldn't score and was regularly injured. That was what Cammy was in Montreal. We loved his playoff success but he wasn't helping us get there. Bourque is cheaper has scored more then Cammy over the past few seasons and plays some form of a physical game. Plus we got a second round pick out of it.

To counter some peoples post on a lack of direction with the club. I believe they have found some. They are making the team bigger, Cole, Eller, Bourque, Blunden, bringing Emelin over. We are getting bigger. We have made some moves to try and balance out not having Markov, but if we had Markov PG would be looking like a great gm. His handling of coaching and the media was terrible. Martin was fired at a bad time and then he ran a bus over Cunnyworth by apologizing... but his "hockey" moves have been really good IMO.

I believe you need to look at the moves more in depth and stop getting swept up in the media frenzy about how the team needs to be blown up and the management beheaded.

To me I just don;t know who is pulling the strings. When gainey was GM was Gauther filling his ear or were decisions made without Gauthier. Now is Gauthier making the calls or is it Gainey whispering in his ear?

This whole situation smells fishy. I personally want to start from scratch with this because I don;t know who did what. Under Gauthier however there is alot to be excited for and still alot to be worried.

As pointed out he brought over Emelin, picked up Blunden, signed Cole, traded the Cammalleri salary for Bourque. he also tried to get better and bigger down the middle by picking up Betts and then Nokelainen. Picking up Bournival by dumping a spare part in O'Byrne. He didn't sign Wiz to that ridiculous contract and did not overpay last year at the deadline for penner when many though he was coming here. You cannot argue these.

On the flip side birning in Campoli when there was no room for him, trading Lapierre for a bucket of pucks (even if he did want out), the firing of Pearn, not doing his due dilligence with Betts, Not the signing of markov but then leaving him alone without supervision to train himself, not picking up NHL caliber D-men that filled a need. Publicly claiming we did not need size so making a series of moves to get quicker and then pulling a complete 180.

I mean there are some extremely positive moves and some additional ones which leave me scratching my head. I just fear that there will be some bad decisions made with Ak46, Moen, Campoli, Weber, Gill but most especially PK Subban. I hope clearer heads prevail and this kid is not dumped because he is our #1 dman.

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I completely agree with BTH.

Each move individually makes sense. You don`t seem to look at anything objectively. Moore was needed, Wiz was needed, you discredit Cole before seeing how he will play, people complain about signing Markov to the 3 year... who says he would have signed a 1 year? Do we know this? In that case he made the right move signing Georges for one just in case his knee blew. Campoli was brought in to serve as a puck mover till Markov was back and to try to limit PK's minutes. Makes sense. O'Bryne wasn't fitting into the roster, Lapierre wanted out, we needed help on the pp so he got Kaberle (though he has a bad contract once we ditch Gomez it's irrelevant), he also cleared capspace by dealing Cammy who hadn't performed up to HIS salary in Montreal, a small scorer who couldn't score and was regularly injured. That was what Cammy was in Montreal. We loved his playoff success but he wasn't helping us get there. Bourque is cheaper has scored more then Cammy over the past few seasons and plays some form of a physical game. Plus we got a second round pick out of it.

To counter some peoples post on a lack of direction with the club. I believe they have found some. They are making the team bigger, Cole, Eller, Bourque, Blunden, bringing Emelin over. We are getting bigger. We have made some moves to try and balance out not having Markov, but if we had Markov PG would be looking like a great gm. His handling of coaching and the media was terrible. Martin was fired at a bad time and then he ran a bus over Cunnyworth by apologizing... but his "hockey" moves have been really good IMO.

I believe you need to look at the moves more in depth and stop getting swept up in the media frenzy about how the team needs to be blown up and the management beheaded.

Meanwhile ,despite all the ifs and buts,we are tied for last in the East thanks to inept management ,which is led by Gauthier,the worst GM in the NHL.Size doesn't matter if you don't have toughness to go with it. We got bigger with players you mentioned,but after losing Laps,Pouliot,Mara and O'byrne

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Meanwhile ,despite all the ifs and buts,we are tied for last in the East thanks to inept management ,which is led by Gauthier,the worst GM in the NHL.Size doesn't matter if you don't have toughness to go with it. We got bigger with players you mentioned,but after losing Laps,Pouliot,Mara and O'byrne

I'd say we're tied for last because of having the most man games lost, many of which are from key players being injured long term...

but hey, sure, whatever, it's the management.

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I'd say we're tied for last because of having the most man games lost, many of which are from key players being injured long term...

but hey, sure, whatever, it's the management.

I picture that last line being said by the guy in your avatar with that exact look on his face. Pure gold.

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I'd say we're tied for last because of having the most man games lost, many of which are from key players being injured long term...

but hey, sure, whatever, it's the management.

Wahhhhhh. Cry me a river. The management signed all these small players who get hurt.Sign old players that get hurt.Sign players that are already hurt. Injuries aren't a factor this year. Pitt and Philly have as many if not more injuries,and to key players than we do. Friggin excuse making whining makes me sick.You are what you are

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i'm also in the camp of thinking PG has done a fine job. where some of you think there is no vision for the team, i feel the vision has changed and this change of direction have you thinking the team is sailing with no rudder.

i believe during the off-season and pre-season, PG felt we had a Cup contending team (not unreasonable given playoff performances the past 2 seasons), but that any additions would not only have to add skill, but size to push the team to the next level. this meant the team upgraded with Cole & resigning Markov (given Markov was out much of last year). logically, just the addition of those 2 should have meant the team was better than 2010-11. moves like signing Campoli were done with the opinion that Markov would be back. don't forget the attempt to add Blair Betts to the club. brilliant move, and once again not at all PGs fault that Betts was damaged goods ... PG knew he couldn't afford to have even a smallish cap hit sitting at home nursing an injury.

every move ultimately was to either gain size, or resign players he saw as important to the team, or cut loose players he didn't see as part of the team while gaining an asset in return.

then, with the club in a desperate tailspin - he made moves to accelerate what had already begun. small team to big team ---> bye bye JM & his coaching tactics & bye bye Cami & his vertically challenged stature (not to mention large contract for little production in return)

personally, i like the direction the team is headed. i don't like the results at this moment, but i believe in the long-run, PG is building a winner.

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I see and agree with your points that PG is making a concerted effort to add size to the roster. I definitely think that is priority.

However where he misses on the management game is moves like the following.

- PP Sucks... JM says as much.. team is good in other areas.

- Trades for Kaberle to fix PP

- 3 games later fires JM, due to player revolt led by Cammalleri

- Hires RC

- Molson issues press release, cuts off RC's legs

- Gauthier apologizes for hiring RC.

- Cammalleri pops off to media.

- Trades Cammy the next day during a game, pulls him off ice and sticks him in a cab.

The whole narrative here, plus PG's inability to deal with the media, makes the team look like they are mickey mouse as an organization.

The hockey moves are fine... but he really lacks credibility, and I feel that without Credibility he'll have a tough time convincing UFAs to come here going forward, and thats gonna hurt the org...

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The hockey moves are fine... but he really lacks credibility, and I feel that without Credibility he'll have a tough time convincing UFAs to come here going forward, and thats gonna hurt the org...

i have no reasonable comeback for that timeline - only that all of this occurred in the last couple of months, and even if the order was amateurish, every single one of those moves were probably the right call. Martin was the coach that many felt his shelf-life had expired, an anglophone coach is unlikely to be anything more than interim (which is a real shame), and Cami wasn't going to be with the club for 2012-2013 anyways if we believe PG was already shopping him and if we believe PG was committed to adding size to the roster.

i think it is easier to restore credibility than it is to restore a roster. i mean, how long did it take to recover from Rejean Houle? have we recovered yet??? i think by the time UFA season comes around, you get Cole & Subban & Price & Gionta et al singing the praises of being a Hab, and the players we would have wooed successfully pre the 2011-12 debacle are the players we will woo successfully for 2012-13.

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Why does the next GM have to be Rejean Houle?

Ideally if PG is gone, you find someone who has both hockey savvy and credibility.

As for wooing Cole, Gionta, Cammalleri, etc.... all those guys were given extra in terms of either dollars or term.

Now some extra will always be necessary due to taxes, and the media/fan pressure, weather, and language issues, but when your GM loses credibility, it will be one more factor against you, and will mean the overpayment will be even higher.

Unfortunately for PG, perception is reality, and the perception throughout the league is that we are not a classy organiztion anymore, and that PG is incapable of handling the media fires that pop up, and that is why someone to restore credibility is needed.

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Wahhhhhh. Cry me a river. The management signed all these small players who get hurt.Sign old players that get hurt.Sign players that are already hurt. Injuries aren't a factor this year. Pitt and Philly have as many if not more injuries,and to key players than we do. Friggin excuse making whining makes me sick.You are what you are

*huggles*

I hope you're feeling ok.

  • Upvote 1

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i'm also in the camp of thinking PG has done a fine job. where some of you think there is no vision for the team, i feel the vision has changed and this change of direction have you thinking the team is sailing with no rudder.

i believe during the off-season and pre-season, PG felt we had a Cup contending team (not unreasonable given playoff performances the past 2 seasons), but that any additions would not only have to add skill, but size to push the team to the next level. this meant the team upgraded with Cole & resigning Markov (given Markov was out much of last year). logically, just the addition of those 2 should have meant the team was better than 2010-11. moves like signing Campoli were done with the opinion that Markov would be back. don't forget the attempt to add Blair Betts to the club. brilliant move, and once again not at all PGs fault that Betts was damaged goods ... PG knew he couldn't afford to have even a smallish cap hit sitting at home nursing an injury.

every move ultimately was to either gain size, or resign players he saw as important to the team, or cut loose players he didn't see as part of the team while gaining an asset in return.

then, with the club in a desperate tailspin - he made moves to accelerate what had already begun. small team to big team ---> bye bye JM & his coaching tactics & bye bye Cami & his vertically challenged stature (not to mention large contract for little production in return)

personally, i like the direction the team is headed. i don't like the results at this moment, but i believe in the long-run, PG is building a winner.

Gone from an ECF finalist to a 1st rd. KO to last in the east.That's not progress.He dumped alot of big players last year,and now he's trying to get bigger?Other than a vocal minority on some blogs,there isn't one former player/analyst or scout that doesn't think he's done a horrific job.And wouldn't a 4th for Steckel be better than the "brilliant" move in picking up Betts.That was a joke that still hurts us,not having a key faceoff guy or adequate 4th line ctr. ;)

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Gone from an ECF finalist to a 1st rd. KO to last in the east.That's not progress.He dumped alot of big players last year,and now he's trying to get bigger?Other than a vocal minority on some blogs,there isn't one former player/analyst or scout that doesn't think he's done a horrific job.And wouldn't a 4th for Steckel be better than the "brilliant" move in picking up Betts.That was a joke that still hurts us,not having a key faceoff guy or adequate 4th line ctr. ;)

I'm not so sure a lack of a 4th line FO guy is what hurt us this year. I mean we have a better FO% than Philly and they seem to be doing fine.

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