Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
REV-G

Bergevin......

Recommended Posts

habsFan1986    1

Didn't say you need a team of players under 25. What I am trying to say is that through strong drafting, strong player development, and depth in prospects you can  build a wining team and find it easier to make trades for star players something MB doesn't seem to understand.

Edited by habsFan1986

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DON    35
12 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

Didn't say you need a team of players under 25. What I am trying to say is that through strong drafting, strong player development, and depth in prospects you a build a wining team and find it easier to make trades for star players something MB doesn't seem to understand.

As easy as that eh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trizzak    483
2 minutes ago, DON said:

As easy as that eh.

 

Not easy. Just necessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
12 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

Not easy. Just necessary.

Thank you someone who understands 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632
47 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

Didn't say you need a team of players under 25. What I am trying to say is that through strong drafting, strong player development, and depth in prospects you can  build a wining team and find it easier to make trades for star players something MB doesn't seem to understand.

 

Of course better player development helps you make trades... but your original post and complaint was that there were still pieces acquired by Gainey/Gauthier who are part of this team's core. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
6 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Of course better player development helps you make trades... but your original post and complaint was that there were still pieces acquired by Gainey/Gauthier who are part of this team's core. 

No I was comparing the 2. Just to show the difference and how bad drafting and player development has been the past 7 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632

This is literally what you said.  And you said it after naming Price, Pacioretty and Gallagher as part of the OLD core. 

 

5 hours ago, habsFan1986 said:

When a GM takes over he drafts and develop players that challenge and eventually push out the older core group of players that were drafted and developed by the previous GM. When bob took over the team he drafted and developed his core group of players. These players are our core players today.

under Bergevin in his five years here he has yet to draft and develop a core group of players that can challenge and eventually push out the old core that’s here. That’s his big down fall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1

When we have injuries this team goes into a tail spin because we don't have the depth in our prospects pool.

If we had top 6 forwards ready to make the NHL and play big rolls we could then turn around and trade players to fill other holes. But we don't, and why is that?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Link67    108
15 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

When we have injuries this team goes into a tail spin because we don't have the depth in our prospects pool.

If we had top 6 forwards ready to make the NHL and play big rolls we could then turn around and trade players to fill other holes. But we don't, and why is that?????

 

 

Well considering we have picked 25th or higher in the 1st round in 4 of the last 5 years, doesn't exactly provide you with the best opportunity to find a Leon Draisatl from that range. 

 

The year we picked Juulsen, the only top 6 player picked after him doing anything of significance at the NHL level is Sebastian Aho, ONE player.

 

The year we picked Scherbak, The only top 6 players picked after him making an impact for their teams are Brayden Point, and Victor Arvidsson, TWO players.

 

The year we picked Sergachev, we turned it into a top 6 player currently centering our Top line, and regardless if thats where he remains the rest of his time, he will surely be a top line player for us.

 

You have to put things in perspective, what i just pointed out is the reality of the situation, 20/20 goggles on and all, 3 players out of hundreds, have made an impact on their team's top 6 that were picked after our own pick. Those teams would be lying to you if they said it wasn't BS luck that they turned out the way they did, or they would have picked them a heck of a lot sooner. Couple all those facts with the less than ideal track record of Sylvain Lefebvre developing some of our promising players in the minors, and you have your explanation.

 

It is significantly easier to stock pile quality prospects when you are picking in the top 15 for several years in a row, if you nail those picks, and couple them with a nice late round find here and there, you end up with 4 to 6 real good players who can make an impact for you in a span of a few years. Trying to do that from nearly the 30th spot year after year, coupled with a mismanagement of assets and poor player development at the AHL level, and you end up with where we are now. A team who should be contending but can't, and no future impact players in the pipeline to extend the window to do so in sight.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
27 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

 

Well considering we have picked 25th or higher in the 1st round in 4 of the last 5 years, doesn't exactly provide you with the best opportunity to find a Leon Draisatl from that range. 

 

The year we picked Juulsen, the only top 6 player picked after him doing anything of significance at the NHL level is Sebastian Aho, ONE player.

 

The year we picked Scherbak, The only top 6 players picked after him making an impact for their teams are Brayden Point, and Victor Arvidsson, TWO players.

 

The year we picked Sergachev, we turned it into a top 6 player currently centering our Top line, and regardless if thats where he remains the rest of his time, he will surely be a top line player for us.

 

You have to put things in perspective, what i just pointed out is the reality of the situation, 20/20 goggles on and all, 3 players out of hundreds, have made an impact on their team's top 6 that were picked after our own pick. Those teams would be lying to you if they said it wasn't BS luck that they turned out the way they did, or they would have picked them a heck of a lot sooner. Couple all those facts with the less than ideal track record of Sylvain Lefebvre developing some of our promising players in the minors, and you have your explanation.

 

It is significantly easier to stock pile quality prospects when you are picking in the top 15 for several years in a row, if you nail those picks, and couple them with a nice late round find here and there, you end up with 4 to 6 real good players who can make an impact for you in a span of a few years. Trying to do that from nearly the 30th spot year after year, coupled with a mismanagement of assets and poor player development at the AHL level, and you end up with where we are now. A team who should be contending but can't, and no future impact players in the pipeline to extend the window to do so in sight.

 

 

Tell that to the teams that challenge for the cup every year but still seem to draft high caliber type players. The kings, hawks, pens, caps, nyr, nash, ducks,  Tampa, always make the playoffs always end up picking 20 and up just like us. But yet always have good young NHL ready prospects that lets them make trades to fill holes. Yet we can't why is that??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dlbalr    691
57 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

Tell that to the teams that challenge for the cup every year but still seem to draft high caliber type players. The kings, hawks, pens, caps, nyr, nash, ducks,  Tampa, always make the playoffs always end up picking 20 and up just like us. But yet always have good young NHL ready prospects that lets them make trades to fill holes. Yet we can't why is that??

 

I'm not sure LA should be in that mix - they've missed the playoffs in three of the last four years.  The Rangers also traded first-round picks for what, four years in a row?  They haven't been developing players (they finally kept their pick last June), they just trade the picks instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632
3 hours ago, habsFan1986 said:

When we have injuries this team goes into a tail spin because we don't have the depth in our prospects pool.

If we had top 6 forwards ready to make the NHL and play big rolls we could then turn around and trade players to fill other holes. But we don't, and why is that?????

 

Thats a different argument than the one you made. 

I agree that the player development has been a problem. 

The idea that player development means that we need to develop someone to push Price and Max out the door while they are still in their 20s... that was what i disagreed with. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1

The reason why we are paying plekanec 6mil is because we have no one in the system to take his spot. We should of traded him 3 years ago, but we didn’t because we had no one else. The reason losing Markov  hurts so much is because we have no one that can take his spot. Do you see what’s happening here????  If we drafted better and developed smarter we wouldn’t be in the hole we are in.  We can’t replace guys that get hurt or don’t resign because we don’t have the depth because we don’t draft and develop properly.  That’s the point I am trying to make.

 

if we had the players in our system ready to play full time in the nhl it would make trades easier, it would stop the slides when we get key injuries and it won’t hurt when we losing players to FA. But we don’t and until they realize that’s is the true problem here nothing will get fixed and we aren’t going to win a cup anytime soon.

Edited by habsFan1986

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
huzer    61
14 hours ago, habsFan1986 said:

Tell that to the teams that challenge for the cup every year but still seem to draft high caliber type players. The kings, hawks, pens, caps, nyr, nash, ducks,  Tampa, always make the playoffs always end up picking 20 and up just like us. But yet always have good young NHL ready prospects that lets them make trades to fill holes. Yet we can't why is that??

 

I'll take "NHL teams that have tanked for draft picks" for $500, Alex. Every team on that list, except Nashville, have a top 2 draft pick that is still on their roster. The Rangers didn't (and still don't) draft theirs (Nash).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

The reason why we are paying plekanec 6mil is because we have no one in the system to take his spot. We should of traded him 3 years ago, but we didn’t because we had no one else. The reason losing Markov  hurts so much is because we have no one that can take his spot. Do you see what’s happening here????  If we drafted better and developed smarter we wouldn’t be in the hole we are in.  We can’t replace guys that get hurt or don’t resign because we don’t have the depth because we don’t draft and develop properly.  That’s the point I am trying to make.

 

if we had the players in our system ready to play full time in the nhl it would make trades easier, it would stop the slides when we get key injuries and it won’t hurt when we losing players to FA. But we don’t and until they realize that’s is the true problem here nothing will get fixed and we aren’t going to win a cup anytime soon.

 

100%. This is the master problem of the Bergevin era. We can't fill holes without creating other holes, because we have no serious talent in the system. Alzner and Shaw are examples of guys who should have been internally developed rather than expensively imported in (and then we can't 'afford' a Radulov). Pleks is a guy who should, as you say, have been shipped out for further assets and internally replaced. We can't get a Drouin without gutting the system, because the system only had one elite prospect to begin with. We lose Markov and desperately hope a 19-year-old can fill the slot. And on and on and on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632
38 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

The reason why we are paying plekanec 6mil is because we have no one in the system to take his spot. We should of traded him 3 years ago, but we didn’t because we had no one else. The reason losing Markov  hurts so much is because we have no one that can take his spot. Do you see what’s happening here????  If we drafted better and developed smarter we wouldn’t be in the hole we are in.  We can’t replace guys that get hurt or don’t resign because we don’t have the depth because we don’t draft and develop properly.  That’s the point I am trying to make.

 

if we had the players in our system ready to play full time in the nhl it would make trades easier, it would stop the slides when we get key injuries and it won’t hurt when we losing players to FA. But we don’t and until they realize that’s is the true problem here nothing will get fixed and we aren’t going to win a cup anytime soon.

 

There is a difference between the guys in their late 30s that you mention and the guys in their 20s that you mention. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632
24 minutes ago, huzer said:

 

I'll take "NHL teams that have tanked for draft picks" for $500, Alex. Every team on that list, except Nashville, have a top 2 draft pick that is still on their roster. The Rangers didn't (and still don't) draft theirs (Nash).

 

If you look at top 5 picks, almost every team in the NHL has one on their roster.  Most have more than 1. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

There is a difference between the guys in their late 30s that you mention and the guys in their 20s that you mention. 

So you’re telling me that if we had a talent goal scorer in our system ready to play a full time role on our team you wouldn’t look at trying to trade max to fill a hole elsewhere? That’s how you run a team. You don’t trade players or let players walk when you can’t fill there holes on the team. Look at what Nashville is doing and maybe you might understand.

 

they have drafted strong, they have developed strong and they have added depth every where in there system. That has let them trade roster players to fill holes because they have the depth in the system to fill the void.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
huzer    61
Just now, Commandant said:

 

If you look at top 5 picks, almost every team in the NHL has one on their roster.  Most have more than 1. 

 

I mention top 2 because in many cases, the #2 could have been the number one overall. Hedman, Doughty,  There aren't many 3,4,5 players on par with Stamkos, Kane, and Ovechkin, for instance.

 

I also don't want to sound like a Bergevin apologist, but shouldn't some blame by cast on previous GMs for development/drafting. 2006-2011 (with the exception of 2007) yielded relatively few NHLers. Given, what, a 3-5 year lead time for a pick to start to crack into the NHL, that's pre-Bergevin. A lot of the lack of depth in age and prospect pool comes specifically from that era. Other than Patches and Price, there's nobody on the roster in the 26-31 or so age range that's homegrown. That's a large gap in talent that Bergevin has had to try and fill the void.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
5 minutes ago, huzer said:

 

I mention top 2 because in many cases, the #2 could have been the number one overall. Hedman, Doughty,  There aren't many 3,4,5 players on par with Stamkos, Kane, and Ovechkin, for instance.

 

I also don't want to sound like a Bergevin apologist, but shouldn't some blame by cast on previous GMs for development/drafting. 2006-2011 (with the exception of 2007) yielded relatively few NHLers. Given, what, a 3-5 year lead time for a pick to start to crack into the NHL, that's pre-Bergevin. A lot of the lack of depth in age and prospect pool comes specifically from that era. Other than Patches and Price, there's nobody on the roster in the 26-31 or so age range that's homegrown. That's a large gap in talent that Bergevin has had to try and fill the void.

Yes I think bob missed the boat back in the 03’ draft. He could of set this organization up nicely if he drafted the type of players this organization needed instead of taking a gamble on AK.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632
41 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

So you’re telling me that if we had a talent goal scorer in our system ready to play a full time role on our team you wouldn’t look at trying to trade max to fill a hole elsewhere? That’s how you run a team. You don’t trade players or let players walk when you can’t fill there holes on the team. Look at what Nashville is doing and maybe you might understand.

 

they have drafted strong, they have developed strong and they have added depth every where in there system. That has let them trade roster players to fill holes because they have the depth in the system to fill the void.

 

If we had a talented goalscorer in the system, i would keep both... to have two talented goal scorers on the team. 

 

But again you wanted to Push the entire group out, including price, pacioretty and gallagher.  That is not realistic for a GM in five years to push out the entire team he inherits. 

 

The Job of the GM is to take what he has, augment it, and make it stronger. not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
23 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

If we had a talented goalscorer in the system, i would keep both... to have two talented goal scorers on the team. 

 

But again you wanted to Push the entire group out, including price, pacioretty and gallagher.  That is not realistic for a GM in five years to push out the entire team he inherits. 

 

The Job of the GM is to take what he has, augment it, and make it stronger. not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

You have made no good points to this, this is why the habs are where they are today and won’t win a cup anytime soon.

 

i think it’s tome to end this debate.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Commandant    632

You've made no points whatsoever that support the idea that in 5 years the entire 23 man roster is to be replaced... including players like Gallagher who is 25, and Pacioretty and Price who are in their prime. 

 

Drafting and development need to be improved, no doubt about that.  But the idea you have is completely unrealistic and you have shown me no competitive team that has done this (wiped out every player acquired by the previous regime). 

 

Even the Leafs who might have the most dramatic overhaul we've seen, have Nazem Kadri. Jake Gardiner, Morgan Rielly, James van Riemsdyk, and Tyler Bozak all in key roles and all acquired by a previous regime.   The idea that a new regime has to completely erase the previous one is not something that any NHL team can or would follow. 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
habsFan1986    1
42 minutes ago, Commandant said:

You've made no points whatsoever that support the idea that in 5 years the entire 23 man roster is to be replaced... including players like Gallagher who is 25, and Pacioretty and Price who are in their prime. 

 

Drafting and development need to be improved, no doubt about that.  But the idea you have is completely unrealistic and you have shown me no competitive team that has done this (wiped out every player acquired by the previous regime). 

 

Even the Leafs who might have the most dramatic overhaul we've seen, have Nazem Kadri. Jake Gardiner, Morgan Rielly, James van Riemsdyk, and Tyler Bozak all in key roles and all acquired by a previous regime.   The idea that a new regime has to completely erase the previous one is not something that any NHL team can or would follow. 

 

Edmonton traded away Hall to fill a void on D, Nashville traded away jones to fill a void at centre, hawks traded away panarin to fill a void.

 

reason why bozak and kadri are still leafs is the same reason plekanec is still a hab. There’s no one else to fill the hole. Once they have someone to fill there holes they will be traded.

 

i Didn’t say you turn over your hole roster. You draft players and develop players to add depth to your team , so that if your weak in one area you can trade a player like max to fill those weaknesses and have someone in your system to fill in and have your team improve.

 

you might understand it this way. We traded PK and let markov walk but we have no one that can fill those rolls. We added one strength but created 2 weakness. Why because of our drafting , player development and depth being bad. You don’t trade a guy like PK , and let a guy like markov walk unless you have someone in your system that can replace him.

 

Nashville traded away Jones to fill a hole at center because through strong drafting and player development they HAVE THE DEPTH to bring someone up to replace him.

Edited by habsFan1986

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×