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Phozzwald

Canadiens should offer sheet Sergachev

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2 hours ago, Phozzwald said:

As for the offer sheet. It absolutely needs to be more than $6.5. Tampa laughs at that and matches, no sweat. Even though its still more than surely theyre hoping to pay. They would easily accept a $6.5, 5 year deal for a player of Sergachev's stature. 

I'm basing this off CapFriendly's numbers, but if Tampa matches a $6.3 million dollar offer sheet then they'll have around 3.5 million to sign Cernak, Cirelli, and 3 other players for a 20 man roster.

 

Even if they trade guys like Paquette, Coleman, and McElhinney for league minimum contracts they're still only playing with ~6 million. Do you expect Cernak and Cirelli to give Tampa the Kevin Labanc treatment (that he no doubt regrets doing in hindsight)?

 

Y'all trying to give up 2 first round picks, a second round pick and a third round pick AND really hinder the Habs' future salary structure for a guy who gets points by passing to Stamkos and Kucherov all game... his stats might be a tad inflated.

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I might consider targetting Vince Dunn, who you could probably get cheaper in a trade if you took on a shitty Blues contract like Jake Allen

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2 hours ago, DON said:

 

Can you see it now?

Sorry interpreted that differently.

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3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Sorry interpreted that differently.

OK.

i would like to blame the defense for part of Price's numbers, but he has let in too many soft ones for sure.

 

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1 hour ago, Trizzak said:

I'm basing this off CapFriendly's numbers, but if Tampa matches a $6.3 million dollar offer sheet then they'll have around 3.5 million to sign Cernak, Cirelli, and 3 other players for a 20 man roster.

 

Even if they trade guys like Paquette, Coleman, and McElhinney for league minimum contracts they're still only playing with ~6 million. Do you expect Cernak and Cirelli to give Tampa the Kevin Labanc treatment (that he no doubt regrets doing in hindsight)?

 

Y'all trying to give up 2 first round picks, a second round pick and a third round pick AND really hinder the Habs' future salary structure for a guy who gets points by passing to Stamkos and Kucherov all game... his stats might be a tad inflated.

I think Sergachev is better than you are giving him credit for.  And NTC’s or not, as long as the can keep kucherov, stamkos, point, Palat and Hedman and Vasilevskiy, they will find ways to move force out the other NTC players.  Johnson and McDonough are probably the most likely in that order.

having said that they have done a phenomenal job on getting guys to not only take bridge deals, but take discounted deals, so who knows, Sergechev May sign a 2 yr deal and wait for the cap to go up.

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4 minutes ago, DON said:

OK.

i would like to blame the defense for part of Price's numbers, but he has let in too many soft ones for sure.

 

I think he is still a great goalie and yes he has a lousy d in front of him and not very good overall team defence outside of Danault.

 

but I fundamentally am opposed to paying that much to a goalie. There are very few goalies that can carry their team into the playoffs AND the finals.  The ones that do tend to me young up and comers anyway.

 

And there are just too many good options in the $4m-$7m range.  On the other can’t win without a truly elite centre and D.

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38 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I think he is still a great goalie and yes he has a lousy d in front of him and not very good overall team defence outside of Danault.

 

but I fundamentally am opposed to paying that much to a goalie. There are very few goalies that can carry their team into the playoffs AND the finals.  The ones that do tend to me young up and comers anyway.

 

And there are just too many good options in the $4m-$7m range.  On the other can’t win without a truly elite centre and D.

 

While I tend to agree with this analysis, I have a hard time blaming the Habs for signing Price to that deal. He was just coming out of his peak, was the universally-acclaimed best player in the league at his position, had a Hart, and was the Habs' clear-cut franchise player, the first such since Roy. Teams generally do not trade or walk away from assets like that, they lock them up. It's easy to fantasize about a world where we traded Price at awesome value and simultaneously managed to acquire an "almost as good" goalie. But if either of those elements failed to work out, it would be a debacle of historic proportions. That was a classic case of "bird in the hand" - a very impressive bird - and I can live with the contract. Most (or all) GMs would have done the same.

 

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We don't have cap issues, so its hard to say... the Price contract or the Alzner contract is preventing us from getting player X.  A lack of cap space hasn't been the issue. 

Yes they are overpaid, but its not a limiting factor right now.

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2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

We don't have cap issues, so its hard to say... the Price contract or the Alzner contract is preventing us from getting player X.  A lack of cap space hasn't been the issue. 

Yes they are overpaid, but its not a limiting factor right now.

And that’s the crux of part of the issue with the Bergevin years.  We don’t have the great players who will need to get paid.  We had great value contracts like maxpac, and Gallagher and those were wasted on largely average team.  Other than his free agency signing blunders, the only contract I didn’t like was Subban’s, and that’s only because he should have been signed long term out of his bridge deal.

 

 There’s hope with some of the upcoming kids.  It’s a sad thought but even if weber is around until 40 and is a bottom pairing Dman, it may not matter cap wise.

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27 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

While I tend to agree with this analysis, I have a hard time blaming the Habs for signing Price to that deal. He was just coming out of his peak, was the universally-acclaimed best player in the league at his position, had a Hart, and was the Habs' clear-cut franchise player, the first such since Roy. Teams generally do not trade or walk away from assets like that, they lock them up. It's easy to fantasize about a world where we traded Price at awesome value and simultaneously managed to acquire an "almost as good" goalie. But if either of those elements failed to work out, it would be a debacle of historic proportions. That was a classic case of "bird in the hand" - a very impressive bird - and I can live with the contract. Most (or all) GMs would have done the same.

 

 

Agreed, that's a great analysis of the situation at the time. I don't remember anybody (or hardly anybody) complaining about the contract at that time. It's always easy  to look back in hindsight to see whether a contract was worth it. On the other hand Nathan McKinnon at 6.3m until the end of the 2022-23 season is a beauty of a contract for Colorado. Is there a better team friendly contract in hockey?  Maybe Brad Marchand is close. 

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32 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

While I tend to agree with this analysis, I have a hard time blaming the Habs for signing Price to that deal. He was just coming out of his peak, was the universally-acclaimed best player in the league at his position, had a Hart, and was the Habs' clear-cut franchise player, the first such since Roy. Teams generally do not trade or walk away from assets like that, they lock them up. It's easy to fantasize about a world where we traded Price at awesome value and simultaneously managed to acquire an "almost as good" goalie. But if either of those elements failed to work out, it would be a debacle of historic proportions. That was a classic case of "bird in the hand" - a very impressive bird - and I can live with the contract. Most (or all) GMs would have done the same.

 

I thought they should have tried to move him after moving Subban.  Should have done a rangers type blow up.

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3 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Agreed, that's a great analysis of the situation at the time. I don't remember anybody (or hardly anybody) complaining about the contract at that time. It's always easy  to look back in hindsight to see whether a contract was worth it. On the other hand Nathan McKinnon at 6.3m until the end of the 2022-23 season is a beauty of a contract for Colorado. Is there a better team friendly contract in hockey?  Maybe Brad Marchand is close. 

I didn’t like it.  But than even though 2 of my all time favourite habs are goalies (Dryden and Roy), i hate paying goalies that much a and also hate picking them early in the first round- too much of a crap shoot and their at lots of vezina winners from the 3rd and 4th rounds.

 

hated the Brobovsky contract as well and the panthers did the double whammy - three big long term money at a goalie and drafted one early.

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Agreed, that's a great analysis of the situation at the time. I don't remember anybody (or hardly anybody) complaining about the contract at that time. It's always easy  to look back in hindsight to see whether a contract was worth it. On the other hand Nathan McKinnon at 6.3m until the end of the 2022-23 season is a beauty of a contract for Colorado. Is there a better team friendly contract in hockey?  Maybe Brad Marchand is close. 

Gallagher at $3.75 for 30g scorer is hard value to beat.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I didn’t like it.  But than even though 2 of my all time favourite habs are goalies (Dryden and Roy), i hate paying goalies that much a and also hate picking them early in the first round- too much of a crap shoot and their at lots of vezina winners from the 3rd and 4th rounds.

 

hated the Brobovsky contract as well and the panthers did the double whammy - three big long term money at a goalie and drafted one early.

Bobrovski $10.0 is bad one.

Lundqvist at $8.5 is very similar to Price, just signed 4 years earlier that Price and likely very similar stats.

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55 minutes ago, DON said:

Gallagher at $3.75 for 30g scorer is hard value to beat.

 

That is a good contract coming to an end soon. McKinnon has 3 more years and he is in my opinion the 2nd best player in the game right now. 

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14 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

That is a good contract coming to an end soon. McKinnon has 3 more years and he is in my opinion the 2nd best player in the game right now. 

Mackinnon....Crosby-lite.

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So we trade Sergachev for Drouin, then sign Drouin to a 5.5 a million per season contract and now we’re expected to offer Sergachev 8.5 million on an offer sheet? 
 

It’s funny because I did not like the Sergachev trade, and I also constantly argue about the fact that we do not spend to the cap, so it’s true that it should not necessarily be a concern. I also understand that paying 3 million more to Segachev is off set in a sense by the fact that we would have then have acquired Drouin for nothing. 
 

With all that being said, 8.5 million is too much for Sergachev. This is the first time I’ve ever been on this side of the fence when it comes to paying to acquire talent but there are better fish in the sea for that price and I think it would be “too rich for MB” for good reason. Would I complain if it happened and succeeded? I wouldn’t. Would I offer less? Sure would. 

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The Drouin trade is irrelevant to this discussion IMO. 

 

It's in the past, and you can't change the past. 

 

You have to make the decision if you want to make the team better tomorrow. 

 

If it was a player with the exact same skills as Sergachev, and a team with the exact same cap crunch as Tampa, but who never made that trade, would you do it to improve the team right now?  That's the question we can debate.  And its perfectly fine to say 8.5 is too much money, or to say you would do it... but the Drouin trade shouldn't be a reason why we do or dont make this move.

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

So we trade Sergachev for Drouin, then sign Drouin to a 5.5 a million per season contract and now we’re expected to offer Sergachev 8.5 million on an offer sheet? 
 

It’s funny because I did not like the Sergachev trade, and I also constantly argue about the fact that we do not spend to the cap, so it’s true that it should not necessarily be a concern. I also understand that paying 3 million more to Segachev is off set in a sense by the fact that we would have then have acquired Drouin for nothing. 
 

With all that being said, 8.5 million is too much for Sergachev. This is the first time I’ve ever been on this side of the fence when it comes to paying to acquire talent but there are better fish in the sea for that price and I think it would be “too rich for MB” for good reason. Would I complain if it happened and succeeded? I wouldn’t. Would I offer less? Sure would. 

Signing Sergechev is not trying to correct a wrong.  It’s to fill a major hole and pickup a dman who looks like he will be a dominating top line Dman and he hasn’t even hit his prime.

 

this isn’t like the Chelios for Savard trade where the the French media at the time was saying a great wrong had been corrected from when the Habs drafted Wickeneiser over the local French kid.  At the time the habs traded one of the best dman in the league who was still in his prime as part of the regular animals Corey dictated crap moves for a declining French star.

 

you make the move because that Sergechev is the best dman available as an RFA and Tampa is limited in how much they can offer.  If Seth Jones was an RFA on a team in the same cap situation as Sergechev, I’d be willing to make the same offer for him as well.  

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28 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The Drouin trade is irrelevant to this discussion IMO. 

 

It's in the past, and you can't change the past. 

 

You have to make the decision if you want to make the team better tomorrow. 

 

If it was a player with the exact same skills as Sergachev, and a team with the exact same cap crunch as Tampa, but who never made that trade, would you do it to improve the team right now?  That's the question we can debate.  And its perfectly fine to say 8.5 is too much money, or to say you would do it... but the Drouin trade shouldn't be a reason why we do or dont make this move.

If MB is not going to blow it up and is hanging on to Weber and Price in particular, they need to make the team better fast.  Even than they really have to hope that Suzuki and KK become dominant players sooner rather than later and Romanov is as good as advertised.

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13 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Signing Sergechev is not trying to correct a wrong.  It’s to fill a major hole and pickup a dman who looks like he will be a dominating top line Dman and he hasn’t even hit his prime.

 

this isn’t like the Chelios for Savard trade where the the French media at the time was saying a great wrong had been corrected from when the Habs drafted Wickeneiser over the local French kid.  At the time the habs traded one of the best dman in the league who was still in his prime as part of the regular animals Corey dictated crap moves for a declining French star.

 

you make the move because that Sergechev is the best dman available as an RFA and Tampa is limited in how much they can offer.  If Seth Jones was an RFA on a team in the same cap situation as Sergechev, I’d be willing to make the same offer for him as well.  

 

Id offer more for Jones... I wouldn't be afraid to give up 4 first round picks for him. But everything else you say here is correct. 

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11 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If MB is not going to blow it up and is hanging on to Weber and Price in particular, they need to make the team better fast.  Even than they really have to hope that Suzuki and KK become dominant players sooner rather than later and Romanov is as good as advertised.

 

MB has wasted each season since the Weber deal ... no matter what he feels, there is a window when your two "best players are 30 or over ... that is no time for a re-set ... by the time the youngsters are ready to be significant contributors Price and Weber will be even further down the far side of the hill

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13 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Id offer more for Jones... I wouldn't be afraid to give up 4 first round picks for him. But everything else you say here is correct. 

 

4 first round picks is a lot to give for Jones. That is a steep price but looking at some of the Habs former 1st round picks I can see your arguement.

 

The Chelios\Savard trade brings back bad memories.  Chelios was a beast. He played almost another 20 years after that trade, maybe 15 of those we pretty productive. Savard not quite as many. 

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2 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

4 first round picks is a lot to give for Jones. That is a steep price but looking at some of the Habs former 1st round picks I can see your arguement.

 

The Chelios\Savard trade brings back bad memories.  Chelios was a beast. He played almost another 20 years after that trade, maybe 15 of those we pretty productive. Savard not quite as many. 

 

Jones is going to win a Norris, soon, very... very soon.   To me he's already one of the top D in the league. 

 

He does everything.

I put him in the same tier as Victor Hedman.

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49 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Jones is going to win a Norris, soon, very... very soon.   To me he's already one of the top D in the league. 

 

He does everything.

I put him in the same tier as Victor Hedman.

I think that Poile should have tried to move Weber for a centre rather than Jones.  You could see that this guy was going to be a stud.  He may end up being  the best Dman that Poile has drafted - and it’s a pretty impressive list just from Nashville alone includes suter, Weber, Josi and Ellis.

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