saskhab Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 About defensive forwards/shutdown centers, etc... This is something that can be teached, but you need a certain level of talent to do this still. John Madden and Jay Pandolfo aren't scrubs. Neither were Draper/Maltby, Pahlsson/Special Nieds, etc. Gainey wasn't a scrub, Jarvis wasn't a scrub, and Carbo wasn't a scrub, either. It's about identifying players with talent to use their skills in a different mold than what they're used to. Chipchura is the guy for the Habs that this is being build around. But as you notice from those examples, you need a wingman to succeed. Bonk/Johnson were much better than Begin/Smolinski or whatever combo you put together for this year in that regard. A guy like Kostopolous might be able to play the "Travis Moen" role on the line if we want to use the Ducks' checking line as a prototype (which is similar to the "Darren McCarty" role of the Wings' old grind line), but you can't build it around players like Begin who simply aren't talented enough to play significant minutes. So no, I don't think you can teach Begin to be a "great" defenisve forward. You can teach Chipchura, though. And Smolinski is a guy that could play shotgun, or at least could've in the past. After 1000 games and at 35 years old, maybe he can't keep up anymore. I'm not sure Carbo has the crew that can play the significant minutes he needs to get it done. I think it's starting to come together.... Lapierre is an interesting option but one that might be limited in the future for that kind of role as well. Right now Carbo is short a checking line as much as he is short a scoring line. Ultimately, I think a Smolinski-Chipchura-Kostopolous (or Dandenault) checking line would've been ideal on this team. But I don't think Carbo has the personnel to have lines he can set his watch to. Beliveau kind of addressed this on Habs I/O in an interview today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) so in your opinion, what have they identified the problem to be? just curious. I have no clue. I am not in the room, I do not talk to any players, management, coaches, etc. It may be simplistic, but I just cannot fathom how an upper management team that is built around some of the best defensive forwards of all time cannot get this team to play defence. So my bet is it is players not willing to buy into the system. In the Cap world it is almost impossible to make trades in the first quarter of the season, so they cannot change the fabric of this team, just yet. If that assumption is wrong then my second guess would be that Carbo/Muller/Jarvis are terrible teachers. Anything more than that would be pure uneducated speculation. Edited December 11, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 About defensive forwards/shutdown centers, etc... This is something that can be teached, but you need a certain level of talent to do this still. John Madden and Jay Pandolfo aren't scrubs. Neither were Draper/Maltby, Pahlsson/Special Nieds, etc. Gainey wasn't a scrub, Jarvis wasn't a scrub, and Carbo wasn't a scrub, either. It's about identifying players with talent to use their skills in a different mold than what they're used to. Chipchura is the guy for the Habs that this is being build around. But as you notice from those examples, you need a wingman to succeed. Bonk/Johnson were much better than Begin/Smolinski or whatever combo you put together for this year in that regard. A guy like Kostopolous might be able to play the "Travis Moen" role on the line if we want to use the Ducks' checking line as a prototype (which is similar to the "Darren McCarty" role of the Wings' old grind line), but you can't build it around players like Begin who simply aren't talented enough to play significant minutes. So no, I don't think you can teach Begin to be a "great" defenisve forward. You can teach Chipchura, though. And Smolinski is a guy that could play shotgun, or at least could've in the past. After 1000 games and at 35 years old, maybe he can't keep up anymore. I'm not sure Carbo has the crew that can play the significant minutes he needs to get it done. I think it's starting to come together.... Lapierre is an interesting option but one that might be limited in the future for that kind of role as well. Right now Carbo is short a checking line as much as he is short a scoring line. Ultimately, I think a Smolinski-Chipchura-Kostopolous (or Dandenault) checking line would've been ideal on this team. But I don't think Carbo has the personnel to have lines he can set his watch to. Beliveau kind of addressed this on Habs I/O in an interview today. You do need the talent to be an elite shutdown centre. But you can teach a strong skater how to play solid positional hockey. You cannot teach a strong skater vision, hands to finish around the net, smarts to find the defensive holes. There is a reason that teams with less talent trap and play systems. It is to bridge the gap in talent level. So to expect a Guy like Carbo to be able to teach a team to play his style is way more reasonable to expect than Gretzky finding somebody to play the way he played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 You do need the talent to be an elite shutdown centre. But you can teach a strong skater how to play solid positional hockey. You cannot teach a strong skater vision, hands to finish around the net, smarts to find the defensive holes. There is a reason that teams with less talent trap and play systems. It is to bridge the gap in talent level. So to expect a Guy like Carbo to be able to teach a team to play his style is way more reasonable to expect than Gretzky finding somebody to play the way he played. It won't happen over night. A lot of our 3rd and 4th liners are new this year, so it has been 20 games. Begin was here last year and he is great. I would also suggest that you can't teach hustle, at least not easily. I do agree that you can put in a boring, trap based, defensive system. But then don't complain when the don't score much. People here seem to think that this team is a fast skating team and I believe Carbo has tried to make them that. If anything, perhaps Carbo is guilty (as are we) of over evaluating his talent. Maybe he is hoping that eventually, they will learn how to complete a pass and move the puck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 You do need the talent to be an elite shutdown centre. But you can teach a strong skater how to play solid positional hockey. You cannot teach a strong skater vision, hands to finish around the net, smarts to find the defensive holes. There is a reason that teams with less talent trap and play systems. It is to bridge the gap in talent level. So to expect a Guy like Carbo to be able to teach a team to play his style is way more reasonable to expect than Gretzky finding somebody to play the way he played. You do not need a lot of talent to be a responsible defensive player, but to be a top end checker in the mold of the people I was mentioning? Yeah, you need talent. With all apologies to the talents of Begin and Kostopolous, two of our "top" PKers, they aren't ever going to be converted into a Madden, Gainey, or even a Wes Walz type player. They're 4th liners who should only be relied on to help put in a solid 9 minutes or so if mistake free hockey to give the top 9 forwards a bit of a rest. You've got to identify 8 or 9 forwards that can play about 15 minutes minimum a game. From there, you identify 3-4 guys that can play upwards of 20 or more. We might barely have the former, but we don't have the latter. And so we stretch guys like Begin and Kostopolous to make up for those minutes... which is asking too much of them. And we break down late in games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 a pretty cogent argument in favour of carbo http://wwwrealitycheckeyesontheprize.blogs...giant-step.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Just in regards to the Habs being a speedy team - I think we all have been overrating their team speed. I just don't see it - the bottom two lines (aside from Dandenault when he plays there) are definitely not fast, and it seems to me like the only really speedy guys on forward would be Higgins, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Dandenault. Also, from looking at the forward corps, I think that there is a big talent drop off from the first four forwards or so and the rest of the team. If Plekanec, Koivu, Higgins and Kovalev are the top four...with Kostitsyn as #5, as we've seen this season, the team lacks a winger, which is why there's musical chairs going on with Higgins/Koivu. Ryder used to fill that role but he's completely useless when he has all of 3 goals. The other guys, such as Kostopoulous, Dandenault, Chipchura, Lapierre, Latendresse, etc... are not really best utilized if they're playing more than 10 minutes or so a game. I hate to say it, but I liked the Bonk/Johnson line better than the replacements, they were able to play more consistently and although they didn't really score much at all and were not physical, they were good positionally. Smolinski is over the hill it seems, and Kostopoulous is good, but as a 4th line grinder, not a third liner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) It won't happen over night. A lot of our 3rd and 4th liners are new this year, so it has been 20 games. Begin was here last year and he is great. I would also suggest that you can't teach hustle, at least not easily. I do agree that you can put in a boring, trap based, defensive system. But then don't complain when the don't score much. People here seem to think that this team is a fast skating team and I believe Carbo has tried to make them that. If anything, perhaps Carbo is guilty (as are we) of over evaluating his talent. Maybe he is hoping that eventually, they will learn how to complete a pass and move the puck... I would never complain about not scoring enough. If you limit the other teams chances and you have great goaltending then you will win more often than not. The part I dislike the most about the way they play their system is lack of an aggressive forecheck. Edited December 11, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Rather win 2-1 than lose, that's for sure. Bonk is better than Chips, but Chips is younger and our property, not FA. That is why he is here as we all know. Maybe should have kept Johnson as I said long back. Chips Johnson and Begin? Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it the offensive/defensive and goaltending coaches job to teach, not the head coaches? Maybe the fault is with Kirk and Dougie? What I really think is that our motivational coach isn't quite cutiing the mustard. Just saying again, when this team plays its best, the same as last season, the out play the best in the league. I have seen it every game, although only for a few shifts in most of late. Where is that great team that destroyed Philly? Could they please show up? How about the team that beat Ottawa until the dieing minutes? Could they show up and play a full game? Please ! I have crapped all over Saku for the last few days. I believe when he plays with his full heart he is a great centre and captain. The problem is he isn't that guy every game and has to be. He is taking up 1st line ice time when he can't seem to click with any of our top wingers. Maybe if Pleks centered Ryder Higgins and put Saku out with Kovy and Kost? Maybe, if Pleks would hang himself out there like he does for Kovy this would result in goals for Higgins and Ryder? The 2nd line as it is currently called should actually improve "IF" Saku is really a number one centre. If not and Pleks does get goals out of the 2 "leadhands"....what so many are saying is true... Saku is being hung on this because the team is better than they play and part of his job as captain is to be the leader. If you can't lead when your team is down but can when they are up or rolling, well that makes you a cheerleader, doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I'd flip up the lines a bit, put Koivu with Kovalev and Ryder. Let Plekanec team up with Higgins and Kostitsyn for a real speedy line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I'd flip up the lines a bit, put Koivu with Kovalev and Ryder. Let Plekanec team up with Higgins and Kostitsyn for a real speedy line. You would think these would be moves that would have been tried by now. Two successful units from previous seasons. It might also give Saku that boost he needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I'd flip up the lines a bit, put Koivu with Kovalev and Ryder. Let Plekanec team up with Higgins and Kostitsyn for a real speedy line. Those are the exact lines I told my buddy Carbo should put together the very same night he switched the lines up for the first time this season. I could see the second line taking awhile to feel comfortable together, and Carbonneau would probably hit the panic button and change them up before they worked out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Carbo's a really smart guy and he knows hockey well. He doesn't have the experience and savvy that Bob Gainey has and he definitely makes a lot of mistakes (misuse of timeouts, constant line changes, inconsistency with philosophies, trouble motivating his players, ...) but he does do a lot of thing right, and let's face it - no matter who was coaching, we'd have a lot of people saying he sucks. No matter what call Carbo makes, he'll be thrown to the dogs by 50% of habs fans. It's really a lose-lose for him. As for what he does right, he knows how to play the chess match that is a hockey game. I find he's good with his hockey tactics and he often does a lot of little things (like switching the defenceman on certain faceoffs, or putting Kovalev on a lower line when they have an offensive faceoff, etc) in games that most teams overlook. I think he's going to improve as a coach every season. Let's have some patience - as of right now, he isn't losing us hockey games, it's the players. So why fire him while he's still improving? If he were single-handledly holding back the team, I could understand. But he isn't. So let's make like Gainey and wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Rather win 2-1 than lose, that's for sure. Bonk is better than Chips, That is why he is here as we all know. Maybe should have kept Johnson as I said long back. Chips Johnson and Begin? I'd say Chips will be better than Bonk right after Christmas. He's already on the same level as Bonk in terms of defense, speed and pk. Oh and Chips can hit, not Bonk. But a Johnson - Chips - Lapierre line would be AWESOME ! Why not a Tender - Chips - Lapierre line ? HIT AND GRIND ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaze53 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I like Coach Carbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 a pretty cogent argument in favour of carbo http://wwwrealitycheckeyesontheprize.blogs...giant-step.html this sums up my exact thoughts. We cant just keep firing the coach. And yes i too like the coach carbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesgm Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 well I would say the biggest thing going for him right now is the fact that its his second year. Like NHL rookies, some coaches take a bit of time to adapt and figure out their mistakes...I think Carbo is getting better, and as soon as we get a RW sniper to play with Saku and Higgs on the first line we will be fine...some ppl seem to forget that he was a coach of the year candidate in his first season until the flu bug hit. Players need to take responsibility some times....Carbo's tried everything short of jumping on the ice himself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 He's made questionable decisions, every coach does. (Why was Kovalev not in the shootout!!) We should keep him for the rest of the season at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 He's made questionable decisions, every coach does. (Why was Kovalev not in the shootout!!) We should keep him for the rest of the season at least. He would have been there if any of the 3 others could have scored ! I think in every shootout, Ottawa puts Heatley or Spezza 4th and throw in Vermette or Fisher in the starting 3. At this level, any player can score a goal anytime (remember Malik...) they all practiced shootout 100+ times in their life, they all own at least one move who can score. Playing Kovalev 4th would have been a BONUS in term of 1 on 1 against Prospal. And we would maybe have say : What a great idea by Carbo ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) Carbonneau has tried everything? Then how come Andrei Kostsitsyn has never played with Koivu so far, including last year? Sure, he tried a lot of stupid things such as placing the likes of Begin, Streit, Dandeneault, Smolinski, Kostopoulos, Jonhson ... on the Koivu line, but how about things that actually make sense? Latendresse played well with Koivu last season, but hasn't got more than a few shifts with him this season. Maybe if they had 2-3 games together, they would develop some interesting chemistry, no? Aside from the powerplay, I don't recall seing a line with our best two forwards (Koivu and Kovalev) together for more than a few shifts even though these guys have produced well together on the PP, played amazingly well together in the Boston series, and played quite well at the begining of the following year with either Perezhogin or Zednik. Speaking of Perezhogin, how come he's never played with Saku Koivu since Carbonneau became a coach, except for one period because Begin got injured (and he scored a goal!)? Perezhogin played and produced well with Koivu and Kovalev during his first 8-9 NHL games. Sure, Carbonneau has tried a whole lot of dumb ideas but I can think of quite a few line combinaisons that look quite interesting on paper (on the ice, that's another matter but they are worth at least trying since nothing works anyway). For exemple, Latendresse-Koivu-Kovalev sounds good, Latendresse-Koivu-Kostsitsyn, Higgins-Koivu-Kovalev, and so on... Edited December 13, 2007 by CerebusClone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesgm Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I can see why Kovalev was not in the shootout, he has not been that successful in it. Kosty is 1 for 3, Koivu is a shootout monster and Plex had a great game.....I bet Kovalev was fourth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 He's made questionable decisions, every coach does. (Why was Kovalev not in the shootout!!) We should keep him for the rest of the season at least. maybe because he jammed his hand? (of course this leads to the question of why he was on the 4-3 in OT). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I can see why Kovalev was not in the shootout, he has not been that successful in it. Kosty is 1 for 3, Koivu is a shootout monster and Plex had a great game.....I bet Kovalev was fourth Plekanec isn't that good in the shootout at all, I'd go with Kovy due to his blistering shot. Koivu's the best on the team in shootouts, I'd rank Kovalev 2nd, then Kostitsyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Plekanec isn't that good in the shootout at all, I'd go with Kovy due to his blistering shot. Koivu's the best on the team in shootouts, I'd rank Kovalev 2nd, then Kostitsyn. I completely agree. Pleks is now 1 for 7 on shootouts... but his goal did get us there... so I can see maybe why Carbo used him. If Kovy was unavailable, I might have tried Lats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEEP26 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Plekanec isn't that good in the shootout at all, I'd go with Kovy due to his blistering shot. Koivu's the best on the team in shootouts, I'd rank Kovalev 2nd, then Kostitsyn. i saw plekanec in the ahl alstar game and he was sick in the shootout... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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