Habsfan84 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Who in your opinion is the Best goaltender of all-time. There have been greats like Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden, Jaques Plante and many more. Who is the best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Who in your opinion is the Best goaltender of all-time. There have been greats like Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden, Jaques Plante and many more. Who is the best? Never saw Plante play. Dryden was great but had a dreamteam in front of him. Gotta give this one to Roy IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Tony Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) Plante hands down...and I did see him play a fair bit. A truly great goalie who played 18 seasons in the days before bulletproof equipment. 7 vezina's, 9 all star games (as near as I can tell), a Hart trophy, 6 Stanley Cups including an incredible 5 in a row. He was such an innovator, the first to play the puck regularly outside the crease, first to wear a mask, he truly revolutionized the position an all that follow owe him a large thank you. My honorable mentions go to Roy, Sawchuck, Brodeur, Hall, Parent...Dryden, Esposito & Hasek don't make my list although I respect they will make many people's list. Durnan, Vezina, Broda, and many other old timers are worthy of consideration, but I never saw them play. I will say that Roy may be the best clutch goalie I ever saw but over all I still personally go with Plante. Mostly it's very tough to pick the ultimate best because there were true greats from every era and each era placed different demands on the goalies. Edited March 9, 2008 by Fat Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathieu30 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Mathieu Garon!! just kiddin, just kiddin.. Patrick Roy.. thread closed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I have to go with Patrick Roy. He was innovative. He perfected the butterfly and made the position about percentages, he was innovative with equipment. Before Roy there were no Michelin man goalies. He made the goalie an athletic position, and a position that thousands of kids in Quebec wanted to play because of him. Luongo, Brodeur, Giguere, Potvin etc may never have played the position without his influence. He made it a star position. He excelled throughout 2 extremely different eras. The 80s reflex goalie and the 90s positional goalie. He won 3 Conn Smythe trophies as the best performer in the playoffs and won Cups on teams that were powerhouses and on teams that were massive underdogs. IMO he has my vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneHABSfan Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) Guys, really.... The best all time goalie let alone Habs goalie is: Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina May as well of been wearing cardboard for protection. Plus look at the pads baby, look at the pads! Plus all goalies are measured with a trophy named after the BEST goalie ever...... Edited March 9, 2008 by InsaneAVSfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAussiePosse Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Andre Racicot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathieu30 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Andre Racicot? What games did you guys down under get to see?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Guys, really.... The best all time goalie let alone Habs goalie is: Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina May as well of been wearing cardboard for protection. Plus look at the pads baby, look at the pads! Plus all goalies are measured with a trophy named after the BEST goalie ever...... Does that mean are Art Ross is the best scorer of all-time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Plante for all the reasons Fat Tony articulates. 7 Vezinas??? A Hart? 5 Cups in a row? PLUS introducing the roving goalie, which probably changed the game as much as Bobby Orr's attacking defenceman did (a change of greater significance than the 'butterfly' trend Roy institutionalized) AND the mask (a move undertaken in defiance of his coach and the conventional wisdom of the time)? This is a unique combination of supreme hockey talent with massive influence over the subsequent evolution of the game. Not to take anything away from Roy's greatness...but Plante wins this duel by a skate-blade. Nobody remembers Bill Durnan, eh? Six Vezinas in a 9-year career; 6 all-star selections; the last goalie ever to captain his team; ambitexterous; and set the modern record for a shutout streak, a record that lasted 55 years. Only on a franchise as legendary as Montreal would he NOT be considered an absolute all-time great. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Durnan Nonetheless: Plante da man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneHABSfan Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) Does that mean are Art Ross is the best scorer of all-time? Wow, you guys take everything so seriously.....I should have added smiles to my comments. This thread is about goalies. Edited March 9, 2008 by InsaneAVSfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Wow, you guys take everything so seriously.....I should have added smiles to my comments. This thread is about goalies. My response wasn't serious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathieu30 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I dont think our friend from down under was serious either.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Plante for all the reasons Fat Tony articulates. 7 Vezinas??? A Hart? 5 Cups in a row? PLUS introducing the roving goalie, which probably changed the game as much as Bobby Orr's attacking defenceman did (a change of greater significance than the 'butterfly' trend Roy institutionalized) AND the mask (a move undertaken in defiance of his coach and the conventional wisdom of the time)? This is a unique combination of supreme hockey talent with massive influence over the subsequent evolution of the game. Not to take anything away from Roy's greatness...but Plante wins this duel by a skate-blade. Nobody remembers Bill Durnan, eh? Six Vezinas in a 9-year career; 6 all-star selections; the last goalie ever to captain his team; ambitexterous; and set the modern record for a shutout streak, a record that lasted 55 years. Only on a franchise as legendary as Montreal would he NOT be considered an absolute all-time great. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Durnan Nonetheless: Plante da man. All points well taken. But winning the Vezina when their are 6 goalies in the league is not as impressive as winning it with 21-30. As well as winning Stanley Cups when it was essentially going to three teams every single season (Det/Mtl/Tor). So a 1/6 shot at the Vezina and a 1/3 shot at the Cup. Gump Worsley won 4 Cups and 2 vezinas in that era. You can't compare accurately, but those are the reasons I discount those factors in my decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Tony Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Guys, really.... The best all time goalie let alone Habs goalie is: Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina May as well of been wearing cardboard for protection. Plus look at the pads baby, look at the pads! Plus all goalies are measured with a trophy named after the BEST goalie ever...... While legend says he was a great goalie, the trophy was likely dedicated to him because he died of tuberculosis while an active player, not for what he acomplished on the ice. As for the equipment, if I remember my history, not only were the shots considerably softer, they rarely left the ice. Still hats off to standing in front of ANY shots with that little gear...I wouldn't even play ball hockey with a tennis ball dressed like Vezina This thread is pretty predictable, no offence meant to anyone by that. Habs fans under 30 are pretty much all going to say Patrick Roy because he is what they saw and statistically he holds many of the records. It also doesn't hurt that Canadian media (many also under 30) tell us that Roy is the definitive best ever. But sorry, it ain't that easy. Vezina was the best of his era, Durnan was likely the best of his era, Plante arguably the best of his era, Dryden probably the best of his very short stint, Roy and Brodeur duke it out for the best of the passing era. The only way to definitively say who the best of all time is to use a time machine, get them all together at the same age, same equipment and face the same shooters. Seriously, how good would Plante, Sawchuck, Vezina, Durnan, Hall and the like be in todays equipment with todays training techniques? By the same token, how good would Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Belfour, Cujo have been wearing the equipment of 50 years ago with no coaching and being replaced after an off game? In my opinion there really is no way to pick the best of all time. Each person is free to offer their opinion of the best they've ever personally seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Tony Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 All points well taken. But winning the Vezina when their are 6 goalies in the league is not as impressive as winning it with 21-30. As well as winning Stanley Cups when it was essentially going to three teams every single season (Det/Mtl/Tor). So a 1/6 shot at the Vezina and a 1/3 shot at the Cup. Gump Worsley won 4 Cups and 2 vezinas in that era. You can't compare accurately, but those are the reasons I discount those factors in my decision. I have to disagree. In the 6 team league you were competing against likely the other 5 best goalies on the planet, not in a watered down NHL with maybe 4 really great guys and 70 average or sub average. To me, to win 6 Vezinas with the 6 greatest goalies in the world competing is pretty impressive. As a side note, lets agree to reconvene in 19 years where we can add Carey Price to this debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) I have to disagree. In the 6 team league you were competing against likely the other 5 best goalies on the planet, not in a watered down NHL with maybe 4 really great guys and 70 average or sub average. To me, to win 6 Vezinas with the 6 greatest goalies in the world competing is pretty impressive. As a side note, lets agree to reconvene in 19 years where we can add Carey Price to this debate This debate will go on forever, it is subjective. In 1956 3 of the starting goalies were Al Rollins, Gump Worsley and Harry Lumley. So Plante essentially had to beat out Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall for the award. So I don't buy that argument. Are All Rollins, Harry Lumley and Gump Worsley all-time greats? They are Hall of Famers, but Lumley is in with essentially a career .500 record. The other 2 are under .500 Also if you dropped all the guys on the same ice at the same time the guys from the Original six era would be embarrassed. Ken Dryden was a freak in 1971, he would be average size today and probably a tad slow. It is a different time and goalies are bigger and faster and have not lost any mobility with that size. If you placed Rocky Marciano in the ring with Lennox Lewis could you expect Marciano to compete? What about dropping Alexander Ovechkin onto the ice in 1960. How many 6'2" 217 lb forwards were there in 1960? Evolution baby, you can only compare against contemporaries. Also you state that they were competing against the 5 best goalies on the planet? I didn't realize that Canada and the Northern US states constituted the planet. In the last 20-30 years players are coming from Russia, Finland, Sweden, France, Germany, Austria etc. In 1967 I bet you thought the best 6 goalies in the world were in the NHL, but you had never even heard the name Vladislav Tretiak. You have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But those points do not sway mine one iota. I fully understand the arguments for Hall, Sawchuk, Plante, Hasek, Brodeur. But I have an argument why I think Roy deserves it over all of them. Edited March 9, 2008 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Tony Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) This debate will go on forever, it is subjective. In 1956 3 of the starting goalies were Al Rollins, Gump Worsley and Harry Lumley. So Plante essentially had to beat out Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall for the award. So I don't buy that argument. Are All Rollins, Harry Lumley and Gump Worsley all-time greats? They are Hall of Famers, but Lumley is in with essentially a career .500 record. The other 2 are under .500 Also if you dropped all the guys on the same ice at the same time the guys from the Original six era would be embarrassed. It is a different time and goalies are bigger and faster, the equipment is 10 times lighter the players train 24/7. Evolution baby Also you state that they were competing against the 5 best goalies on the planet? I didn't realize that Canada and the Northern US states constituted the planet. In the last 20-30 years players are coming from Russia, Finland, Sweden, France, Germany, Austria etc. In 1967 I bet you thought the best 6 goalies in the world were in the NHL, but you had never even heard the name Vladislav Tretiak. You have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But those points do not sway mine one iota. I fully understand the arguments for Hall, Sawchuk, Plante, Hasek, Brodeur. But I have an argument why I think Roy deserves it over all of them. Ya, I knew you were going to come after me when I said "on the planet", hell I would have too Tretiak had a few great outings, but I (and likely all of us) never saw enough of him to deem him all time great. Same goes for all of Europe, 99.99999% of us North Americans only saw NHL and local minor hockey back then. And to be honest, I never in my life have proclaimed any goalie or player to be the best in the world all time...it comes down to best of an era for me. I agree with you 100% that this is a subjective and un-winable discussion, I've already said that. As for dropping all the guys on the ice at the same time to embarrass the original 6 goalies...I think that's completely unfair. Look at the differences in equipment and training techniques, it's not a level playing field. Now, if you airlifted young Plante, Sawchuck & Hall into todays NHL with todays equipment and the benefit of todays training techniques for their whole life...lookout! But I wholeheartedly agree with your evolution theory As for Lumley's .500 win record, not fair again as he played on some lousy teams, as did Gump. More fair to look at their career regular season goals against avg in my opinion. 1955/56 number 1 Goalies career averages Rollins 2.79 Sawchuck 2.52 Plante 2.38 Worsley 2.87 Hall 2.51 Lumley 2.76 Wamsley, you know your stuff and it's a pleasure to occasionally disagree with you I respect your opinion and how you came up with it. Edited March 10, 2008 by Fat Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneHABSfan Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) My response wasn't serious Ya I kind of figured that. It is just too hard to say who the greatest players are since it is impossible to watch games from back in the early 1900's. One guy had 14 goals in a game after travelling 4000 miles on dogsled and whatever else he could find to get to the game and scored 14 goals. To me that is a great goal scorer! I also kind of stick up for the old guys, except Donuts Cherry and his Leaf homerisms. Edited March 10, 2008 by InsaneAVSfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Ya, I knew you were going to come after me when I said "on the planet", hell I would have too Tretiak had a few great outings, but I (and likely all of us) never saw enough of him to deem him all time great. Same goes for all of Europe, 99.99999% of us North Americans only saw NHL and local minor hockey back then. And to be honest, I never in my life have proclaimed any goalie or player to be the best in the world all time...it comes down to best of an era for me. I agree with you 100% that this is a subjective and un-winable discussion, I've already said that. As for dropping all the guys on the ice at the same time to embarrass the original 6 goalies...I think that's completely unfair. Look at the differences in equipment and training techniques, it's not a level playing field. Now, if you airlifted young Plante, Sawchuck & Hall into todays NHL with todays equipment and the benefit of todays training techniques for their whole life...lookout! But I wholeheartedly agree with your evolution theory As for Lumley's .500 win record, not fair again as he played on some lousy teams, as did Gump. More fair to look at their career regular season goals against avg in my opinion. 1955/56 number 1 Goalies career averages Rollins 2.79 Sawchuck 2.52 Plante 2.38 Worsley 2.87 Hall 2.51 Lumley 2.76 Wamsley, you know your stuff and it's a pleasure to occasionally disagree with you I respect your opinion and how you came up with it. The respect is mutual. But don't you think that if you are going to allow some leeway for playing on a poor team that you have to penalize Plante for being on a good team? Or is it because Plante was better that he was on the better team? You end up just chasing your tail I guess. Like I said earlier, the equipment is why Roy wins the debate for me. He is essentially the only guy who excelled in both situations. All the rest is speculation and projection. Roy played with tiny heavy gear and won the Smythe in a year where a player had 215 points, he played in the early 90s and won the Conn Smythe in a year where two players scored 76 goals and he won a Conn Smythe in an era where goalies were wearing feathers and guys like Ron Tugnutt were dropping a 1.90 GAA. He is the best in my book and will continue to be even if Brodeur beats all his records. He outlasted all his 80 contemporaries in Fuhr/Moog/Ranford and he matched his 90s competition in Hasek, Belfour and Brodeur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Tony Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 The respect is mutual. But don't you think that if you are going to allow some leeway for playing on a poor team that you have to penalize Plante for being on a good team? Or is it because Plante was better that he was on the better team? You end up just chasing your tail I guess. Like I said earlier, the equipment is why Roy wins the debate for me. He is essentially the only guy who excelled in both situations. All the rest is speculation and projection. Roy played with tiny heavy gear and won the Smythe in a year where a player had 215 points, he played in the early 90s and won the Conn Smythe in a year where two players scored 76 goals and he won a Conn Smythe in an era where goalies were wearing feathers and guys like Ron Tugnutt were dropping a 1.90 GAA. He is the best in my book and will continue to be even if Brodeur beats all his records. He outlasted all his 80 contemporaries in Fuhr/Moog/Ranford and he matched his 90s competition in Hasek, Belfour and Brodeur. I agree with your logic, but I'm sticking with Plante...I will give that Roy is probably my 2nd choice. There's just too many great goalies that did different things so well. I may have to give Roy the edge over just about anyone in being amazing in clutch situations, and that is arguably the most important aspect in an NHL goalie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I agree with your logic, but I'm sticking with Plante...I will give that Roy is probably my 2nd choice. There's just too many great goalies that did different things so well. I may have to give Roy the edge over just about anyone in being amazing in clutch situations, and that is arguably the most important aspect in an NHL goalie. Can't really make a wrong choice between those two really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Tony Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Can't really make a wrong choice between those two really See, I knew we'd end up on the same page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 See, I knew we'd end up on the same page SAme page, different paragraph Mine is listed on top of yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) I gotta go with Patrick Roy. He made the goalie position an important one in the NHL. Without him there wouldnT' be Brodeur, potvin, Luongo, Thibault, Theodore, Giguere, Fernandez etc. etc. etc. How many goalies told their team mates to go out and score just 1 goal, and then promise them that nothing was gonne get by him??? Not many! You gotta have balls the size of bowling balls to make that kind of promise to your forwards...and then to go out and back that promise up!!! That is gold if you ask me! I agree that Plante also deserves alot of repect, but I never got to see Plante play. As much as it sucks for Plante, the fact that he played on (probably) the best team to ever hit the ice, doesn't help his status! Edited March 10, 2008 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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