time for a trade ?

[Habsfan]

I really don't think it's time for a trade. Like I said in the Canes games thread, I am a little worried, but there's no need to panic. What Guy needs to do, is go back to the original lines he was using at the beginning of the season when everything was going well....and leave them like that for at least 10 games. Give the guys a chance to get used to each other!

Saku - Tanguay - Latendresse

Plex - Kovy - AK46

Higgins - Lang - SK74

Lapierre - Kosto - Bégin or Dandy or Laraque

I am also confident our D will stabilize once Komisarek will be back!

Edited November 19, 2008 by Habsfan

[BTH]

As some one pointed out, maybe it's time for Gainey to start thinking about trade

I Didn't put potential UFAs since they're not sexy for other gm right now...maybe at trade deadline but not now.

I see holes everywhere:

Lack of grit

Lack of a pure scorer

Lack of a PP shooter

nobody will go in the crease

nobody will stir shit on opponents

not mean enough on D.

not working hard enough.

Ok since it's a poll I have to say that Gorges could be a decent bait for a team that looking for an NHLer. not that I have given up on him but maybe guillaume could go. not that he's bad... he's simply useless right now.

the price would have to be tremendous in order to deal a kostitsyn.

Gorges should be one of our less touchable players on our current roster. He actually fits all the requirements you listed that apply to him: he's one of the very few guys who stands up for his teammates, one of the few that fights, one of the few that wins his battles along the boards, one of the guys that isn't prone to spontaneous moments of vertigo, he works hard, ...

Trading Gorges, almost regardless of the return, will only make the problems you listed more severe.

I voted for Halak simply because he doesn't have much more use to us than Denis would.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

I think that we need a #4 Dman.

O'Byrne may need more time in Hamilton or perhaps part of a trade package.

Someone with a good shot and knows how to get the puck out of our zone.

[KoZed]

Colin, you're not talking about leadership in all the points you mentionned. You're talking about management authority. That's not leadership.

Leadership comes from within the group, not from above the group. Henceforth, when the team always hits slumps regardless of coaches or GM or trainers or overall talent; then by a simple process of elimination there's nobody left but the players' leadership and it inevitably starts with the captains.

Its not because it's Saku, it's because its a repetitive pattern where the only constant is the captain. The slumps and complete self-destruction periods were there before Carbo, before Gainey, before Kovy and Higgins got the A...

Of course any captain needs support. Yzerman became a great C in part because of his capacity to dominate a game at both ends of the ice; but he also had guys like Chelios, Shanahan, Lidstrom, McCarty, on his side. Players that hates to lose with work ethic above any reproach.

That's why I said Komisarek is the prototype of players the Habs lack right now. "Calm" leadership isnt enough, a leader also needs to be able to change the course of a game somehow. That's how you get players to follow you. That crazy comeback vs the Rangers last year didnt start with the captain leading the way by example and scoring a bunch of goals and buzzing all over the opposition. It started by Komisarek being so pissed off he got frustrated and angry and fought and hit everything in sight.

THAT is the form of leadership the Habs sorely lack right now. Not freaking practices and coaching sessions. We already know they can dominate anyone when they put their heart & head into it. This is anything but a technical/tactical problem. It's an internal group psychologicalproblem when facing adversity.

Nobody in the group is taking charge during games, and from game to game. Of course that blame is as true for Koivu as it is for anyone else in the lineup: Kovy, Higgins, Markov, Plekanec, the Kostitsyns, etc. The difference is that with the C comes that exact responsibility. It's part of the job description. So to be fair, let's see who else should/could/would show leadership.

Last year the Habs did great because Kovy somewhat took charge of the team because he had tons of things to prove. He made it his team. Part of the blame also falls on him because he's got the talent and contract and experience to step up. I'm pretty sure when Carbo mentioned there was players he wanted to bench but couldnt because of "the rules" he had Kovy in mind.

Tanguay has probably been the most consistent player since the beginning of the season. He also has the talent, contract and experience and he's producing night in and night out, but he's just arrived and I dont think he has the ego to impose himself toward his new teammates right now. Almost the same could be said of Lang.

Price could make this his team now. He has the talent to dominate games. When the Habs were struggling, Roy would get mad and say enough and step up and but the team back on tracks. Price could do it, but for that he'd have to be a little less laid back and little more focused and intense. Exactly the way he was when the Bulldogs rode him to the Calder Cup. That was his team.

Higgins could also be that guy, some sort of Brendan Morrow-type of winger. He can sometimes be everywhere on the ice and change the tempo of the game. A leader has to be able to affect the flow of a game and Higgins can do that when he pursues the puck relentlessly. But is his edge enough? He has that tendency of putting himself down when he slumps, not a good sign when slumps and consistency are exactly the problem with this team.

Plekanec is that type of player who can do everything well and is usually consistent and reliable. He had that leadership role in Hamilton when he was there. He could certainly take more responsibilities and show more leadership. But has that same sort of "too hard on himself" trait as Higgins. That's not what you want from a leader. You dont want someone who can admit "I suck", you want someone who stops sucking.

Markov has been in Montreal the longest time after Koivu. He's considered one of the top D-men in the East if not the League. He has the overall quality about his game that can make a difference. But he's only starting to break out of his shyness bubble and he's more of a nice chatty guy now. If you talk about calm leadership, he'd be another example. Just not what we're looking for here.

Hamrlik... it's hard to imagine him doing any more than he's doing now. He's babysitting O'Byrne most of the time, so he pretty much has his hands full there.

Andrei Kostitsyn was the leader of Belarus in every international competition in which he participated. He has that game-breaking ability and a competitive side that you want from leaders. When he wakes up all in a sudden and gets on fire, he can be physical and create a goal out of nothing. Key word is "when". Consistency is still dogging him. He still just 23 so he's got lot of growing to do.

Speaking of age and experience, Lats, SKost, Lapierre, Gorges, O'Byrne are basically disqualified because of their age and inexperience.

Then you've got the blue collars guys like Begin, Kostopoulos, Bouillon, etc. They have character in spades, just not the talent or body to lead the charge.

So there.

[Dutch_Habs_Fan]

Guys....you're acting like we've lost 10 straight and have a big chance of missing the playoffs. Chill out. Koivu has played really well. All the leadership in the world isn't going to help the transition from defense to offense and it isn't going to improve the team's defensive system.

Im not discussing his play, he's been outstanding this year! There is more than play.....i was a Koivu fan before i was a Habs fan...he made me a hockeyfan(in a poor hockey nation) and he introduced me to the Habs. So i wouldnt doubt him fast, and never did during 13 years. But this time it run through my head....the captain has to fire a team up. We had to many mediocre games the last 10 year. Games we only played 20/40 minutes of hockey...

[johnnyhasbeen]

Colin, you're not talking about leadership in all the points you mentionned. You're talking about management authority. That's not leadership.

Leadership comes from within the group, not from above the group. Henceforth, when the team always hits slumps regardless of coaches or GM or trainers or overall talent; then by a simple process of elimination there's nobody left but the players' leadership and it inevitably starts with the captains...............................................................

Didn't post your massive quote in entirity but you hit the nail on the head.

Saku's picture hangs over my desk, always will. He gave us hope in a dark era.

He is however the last thread to that dark era. I have watched his teams slump year in year out, through many good coaches, and yes, we always blamed the coaches. I am sure Carbo has imperfections in his system, rember though, he has less time behind the bench than most coaches.

Everyone who defends Saku gives the same line, "He is the heart and soul of the team", well heart is what is lacking. Okay bleeding hearts, please explain how if he is the heart and we lack heart what that means to you.

I would never attack the player, he is a very talented player, however as a leader I am not so sure. Yes he triumphed over cancer, but can't or doesn't lead his team in my opinion. Does great play make you a leader? No! Step up, get "your" players to step up, Mr. Heart and Soul,and win 4 str8 for me, I want to win the 1st quarter predictions!

Bob will fix this mess, I am sure of it, question is can Guy or Saku? Trade is not the answer, unless it sends away the captain and brings in a new era.

[KEEP26]

leadership, falls on ever player in the dress room, yes saku wears the C but that dont mean his the only guy that can be a leader..i really dont think its leadership..i think its the players not sure on want there doing, it looks like 5 guy skating around doing their own thing...yes if we can bring in move leadership go for it, but first let get all the players on the same page...shot the puck and go hard to the net...this team as heart, you can see it on their face, but they got to all learn to play together..keep the faith,losing is not always bad,if it makes you a better team in the end..

Edited November 20, 2008 by KEEP26

[KoZed]

Gainey isnt the type to trade because of a slump. Him, Jarvis, Carbo, Muller are from the old school where players would solve their problems like men, pull up their sleeves and get to work.

Carbo isnt going anywhere either. People need to realize that.

When Gainey was in Minnesota/Dallas, he coached for 6 years, then when he became GM and chose his coach (Hitchcock) he stuck with him for 7 years before replacing him. And the progress curve is almost the same for Hitchcock and Carbo (so far). Under Hitchock the Stars went 66 pts and missed the playoffs in year 1, 104 pts and loss in 1st round in year 2, 109 pts and lost in Conference Finals in year 3, 114 pts and then won the Cup in year 4. Steady progress both in the regular season and playoffs, but nothing that happened overnight. Carbo went from 90 pts and missed the playoffs in year 1 to 104 pts and lost in the 2nd round in year 2.

The difference is that Dallas was loaded with grizzled old vets who knew how to win and go far in the playoffs (Nieuwendyk, Carbo, Ludwig, Zubov, Moog, etc.) while Carbo mostly has kids under his hands and has to teach them how to win. And his vets havent really won anything ever (Koivu, Markov, Hamrlik, Kostopoulos, Begin, etc.). People forget that last year the Pens werent just a young team coming out of nowhere. Behind Crosby, Malkin and Fleury they had vets who had been to the finals in Sykora, Gonchar, Roberts, Sydor, Laraque. It helps .

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Nah, not worried about the necessity for a move...

......YET!

[KoZed]

Quote from Carbo (http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/200811/20/01-802524-fini-les-experiences-pour-carbo.php )

«J'ai hâte d'en voir un qui va se lever dans le vestiaire et qui va dire: «Ce soir, j'en joue une grosse. Suivez-moi et ça va bien aller.» C'est le genre de leadership qu'on recherche», a-t-il ajouté.

Translation:

"I'm eager to see one of them to stand up in the locker room and who'll say "Tonight, I'm playing a great one. Follow me and it'll be alright" It's the type of leadership that we're looking for"

Thing is: the coach shouldnt even have to say that. It's something the players should do on their own. Either the most talented ones (Kovy, Markov, Price, Tanguay) or the one with the C on his sweater.

[alexstream]

what is weird is that:

we have a dman problem

Komo is injured.

We have a roster spot.

Weber was doing very good in TC.

we have PP problem, possibly lacking a cannon.

Weber proved he could use his cannon on the PP during TC.

...

What's wrong?

On another note, while looking at the bulldogs' stats sheet, I noticed that Chipchura is doing VERY well. 10 pts in 15, +8

[MAK]

what is weird is that:

we have a dman problem

Komo is injured.

We have a roster spot.

Weber was doing very good in TC.

we have PP problem, possibly lacking a cannon.

Weber proved he could use his cannon on the PP during TC.

...

What's wrong?

On another note, while looking at the bulldogs' stats sheet, I noticed that Chipchura is doing VERY well. 10 pts in 15, +8

chippy pick up a few fights where he held his own.

I'm not sure weber is doing that great to deserve a call up.

[kaos]

I am all for a trade to shake this team up, just not right now. Its still a bit early for that. This team could yet pull itself out of its funk. The team just needs to rediscover its winning ways so the guys realize how much fun it is (like last year) and are willing to give it that extra that is needed.

However I wouldn't be waiting that must longer. I was say that if the team has not turned it around by Dec 15th, Gainey should activelyt be looiking at a a trade. It is my personal belief that this team is European dominated and led, and that just isn't good work ethic wise. The Kostitsyns almost seemed to pack it in with the Saurer hit, Kovalev has looked nowhere near as good as last year, and Markov has been shaky.

If a trade had to be made, I'd be looking at getting some extra size, grit, moxy, whatever you might call it. Kostoploulus and Laraque do not seem to be providing it, and Begin really hasn't had a chance to play.

As for what to trade. Well thats a tough question. It would all depend on the player coming back.

If the team turns it around, or if Gainey decides to ride out the season witht he current lineup, I sincerely hope he makes a run at Jordan Staal in the offseason. There is no doubt in my mind that this kid will be available as Pittsburgh will not be able to keep him. Crosby, Malkin and Fleury will chew up about $21 to $22 Million of the salary cap, and the salary cap will be substantially less that the $57 Million it is now. Forcing Pittsburgh to dump him.

In that case if I were Bob I'd be offering up something like Pittsburgh did for Marian Hossa, since that would Pittsburgh would be looking at recovering. I'd say Latendresse, one of the Kostitsyns, D'Agostini and a 1st Rd pick. Then Montreal could let Kovalev and Koivu walk in the offseason saving over $8 Million which could be used to sign Staal. But thats a story for another day

[CerebusClone]

what is weird is that:

we have a dman problem

Komo is injured.

We have a roster spot.

Weber was doing very good in TC.

we have PP problem, possibly lacking a cannon.

Weber proved he could use his cannon on the PP during TC.

...

What's wrong?

On another note, while looking at the bulldogs' stats sheet, I noticed that Chipchura is doing VERY well. 10 pts in 15, +8

Unfortunately we can forget about Chipchura or even Weber unless we have injuries or Gainey gets rids of one or two useless veterans; Carbonneau has made it very clear that he gives priority to players under NHL 1-way contracts.

It's too bad because we could really use a guy like Chipchura, especially for playoffs. He's known for his leadership (although of course it would take him some time to establish it at this point of his career), for being a clutch player, for winning battles for the puck, for doing the dirty work and picking up garbage goals, for picking up the occasional fight to defend a teammate, and for basically doing everything Carbonneau keeps asking his players... all this while still being capable of providing some level offense with strong passing skills and hockey sense. In comparison Dandeneault does absolutely none of this... and provides nothing else...

With that said a second-year player who can't really be expected to be much more than a depth player at this very moment should never counted on to boost a NHL team, if he did then it would indicate a much deeper problem, and would thus only be temporary. Regardless of what we think it is (i.e. coaching, leadership, work ethic, effort), there is a problem with the Canadiens, and it needs to be fixed before we even think of making a trade or calling up some kids... that could only pacth things up temporarily...

[saskhab]

If Komisarek were on the IR for a significant length of time, the team might call up one of Chipchura, D'Agostini, Weber or Carle. But it's only temporary, so to be fair to both the callup and the players on the team, they're going with what they have. They do have 8 players on their roster that are NHL experienced d-men, and 14 forwards, with Dandy capable in both spots as a fill-in.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Sigh. Koivu absolutely should not be traded, barring some incredible return. Everything I've seen of this guy over 10 years suggests that he is in fact a leader in every imaginable sense - he stands up for his team on the ice, to officials and to opponents; he addresses the whole team both vocally, on the ice, on the bench, and presumably in the room; he takes personally the responsibility to score big goals at clutch moments (and often delivers); and despite his annual extended slumps, he clearly gives all he can. That he is a "thread" connecting this team to the Houle days can hardly be held against him; if anything it suggests that the Habs have squandered the career of one of their best players in recent times. And in terms of the culture of this team, it's hard to see how removing this guy can possibly help. It seems to me the net effect would be to give even more space to...Kovalev.

Some posters here have cited Souray as the type of leaders we lack: vocal, swaggering alpha males who shoot from the hip. But I'd note that the team was equally erratic when we HAD Souray here, indeed, far moreso. Other examples, like Weinrich/Corson, further prove that this type of "leader" doesn't necessarily produce results.

The most insightful claim made in this discussion so far, in my opinion, is that some cocky, high-profile young blood such as Price, or Higgins (but his game is too zany to qualify) needs to step forward, make the team *his* in the way Roy did, or Koivu did back in the day. I think that's about right. We're presently in a moment where the team seems to have regressed collectively - with the younger players seemingly sitting around waiting for the veteran core to pull the team out of darkness. This was EXACTLY the way we looked in 2006-07. Young guys playing sketchy hockey while the vets dropped the ball, or simply weren't good enough. Last year we saw the Kostitsyns, Komisarek, and Plekanec stamp their identity on the team. This year, they're back to fading into the woodwork.

It may simply be part of the growth process (two steps forward, one back, etc.).

I completely agree, though, that the team doesn't seem to have much STRUCTURE to its game, and that this may indeed be a coaching issue. Every single time we bump against a classic "Pat Burns"-style team - a team with a disciplined system, rigorous forecheck, and an unrelenting ethos of hard work - we run into trouble. The Bruins exposed this fundamental problem in the playoffs. The coaches need to have an answer, or else, even IF we get out of the slump and return to our high-flying ways, we will again pull an Ottawa Senators in the playoffs.

[CerebusClone]

Sigh. Koivu absolutely should not be traded, barring some incredible return. Everything I've seen of this guy over 10 years suggests that he is in fact a leader in every imaginable sense - he stands up for his team on the ice, to officials and to opponents; he addresses the whole team both vocally, on the ice, on the bench, and presumably in the room; he takes personally the responsibility to score big goals at clutch moments (and often delivers); and despite his annual extended slumps, he clearly gives all he can. That he is a "thread" connecting this team to the Houle days can hardly be held against him; if anything it suggests that the Habs have squandered the career of one of their best players in recent times. And in terms of the culture of this team, it's hard to see how removing this guy can possibly help. It seems to me the net effect would be to give even more space to...Kovalev.

Some posters here have cited Souray as the type of leaders we lack: vocal, swaggering alpha males who shoot from the hip. But I'd note that the team was equally erratic when we HAD Souray here, indeed, far moreso. Other examples, like Weinrich/Corson, further prove that this type of "leader" doesn't necessarily produce results.

The most insightful claim made in this discussion so far, in my opinion, is that some cocky, high-profile young blood such as Price, or Higgins (but his game is too zany to qualify) needs to step forward, make the team *his* in the way Roy did, or Koivu did back in the day. I think that's about right. We're presently in a moment where the team seems to have regressed collectively - with the younger players seemingly sitting around waiting for the veteran core to pull the team out of darkness. This was EXACTLY the way we looked in 2006-07. Young guys playing sketchy hockey while the vets dropped the ball, or simply weren't good enough. Last year we saw the Kostitsyns, Komisarek, and Plekanec stamp their identity on the team. This year, they're back to fading into the woodwork.

It may simply be part of the growth process (two steps forward, one back, etc.).

I completely agree, though, that the team doesn't seem to have much STRUCTURE to its game, and that this may indeed be a coaching issue. Every single time we bump against a classic "Pat Burns"-style team - a team with a disciplined system, rigorous forecheck, and an unrelenting ethos of hard work - we run into trouble. The Bruins exposed this fundamental problem in the playoffs. The coaches need to have an answer, or else, even IF we get out of the slump and return to our high-flying ways, we will again pull an Ottawa Senators in the playoffs.

Great post, I agree with pretty much evertything. Koivu is a good leader, although perhaps a silent one liek Yzerman or Sakic (although he's not an impact player liek they were). Some of the young players need to step up, and take control of the team; Koivu is aging, and it's time for the young blood to gradually begin the next era. And the team lacks structure, looks unprepared, improvises too much, and all this gets exposed when we're under pressure.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Great post, I agree with pretty much evertything. Koivu is a good leader, although perhaps a silent one liek Yzerman or Sakic (although he's not an impact player liek they were). Some of the young players need to step up, and take control of the team; Koivu is aging, and it's time for the young blood to gradually begin the next era. And the team lacks structure, looks unprepared, improvises too much, and all this gets exposed when we're under pressure.

Glad we agree. I'd add, though, that I'm not sure how "quiet" a leader Koivu is. From the few occasions he's been microphoned on RDS, he actually seems pretty yappy, and also pretty swaggering. (And remember him dressing down Grabovski?). If you want to know the truth, my overall impression of Saks is that he is a demonstrative and vocal leader who maybe rubs a small numer of his teammates the wrong way. I can't give any evidence for the latter point, though. Just a gut feeling. (And even if it's true, it has no bearing on his merits - it's not his job to be Mr Popular, or all things to all people).

[Athlétique.Canadien]

....he is a demonstrative and vocal leader who maybe rubs a small numer of his teammates the wrong way....

Like when he was jousting Ribeiro in practice?

I feel like pointing out (regarding this thread and the reasons it emerged) that the Canadiens, when they miss the playoffs usually accomplish this disaster by playing poorly in November and December. Even back in the 70's and 80's they were early suspect. Let's hope they all do an about face and get back on a better November and December positive track.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Answer me this.

If Jean Beliveau was captain of a team with this much talent, would we be having this thread?

Hmmmmm.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Glad we agree. I'd add, though, that I'm not sure how "quiet" a leader Koivu is. From the few occasions he's been microphoned on RDS, he actually seems pretty yappy, and also pretty swaggering. (And remember him dressing down Grabovski?). If you want to know the truth, my overall impression of Saks is that he is a demonstrative and vocal leader who maybe rubs a small numer of his teammates the wrong way. I can't give any evidence for the latter point, though. Just a gut feeling. (And even if it's true, it has no bearing on his merits - it's not his job to be Mr Popular, or all things to all people).

Papa smurf scolding another smurf, now that is a leader!!!!