Michael Sabia - Habs coach language related

[alexstream]

Great post by KoZed!

I'm 3rd genereation as well. Even though i was born in 76, my first memories of the Habs was in the early 80's. I never saw Lafleur score 50 goals, even though i remember him in his final years as a habs!

I do find reporters or coolumnists like Rejean Tremblay and Bertrand Raymond annoying. Especially tremblay, everything has to do wiht language...at least guys like Brunet and Gagnon concentrate on the Hockey aspect of the game!

Not to say that i wouldn't like to see more franco's on the team, but if the habs only had two franco's and won the cup, i'd be very happy...much more happy then if they had 12 franco's and didn't make the playoffs!

They stink. Really. Relica of the past... I hate them more every day.

[KoZed]

I get the connection of francos using the Habs as a political vessel. I understand the why this is such an issue now. It would be very helpful if Quebecors could find another vessel though

Hold it right there. Quebecor doesnt own the province... yet.

Where did the oppression start though and why? I read the book "The Rocket" and I found it incredibly irritating. The book was about the poor downtrodden french people and their saviour. Canada sending Quebec born people to war seemed to be a particular issue - why? Canadians from across the country fought.

Hmm, I could try to sum it all up.

There is not precise date that you can point at and say that's when the divide between Anglos and Francos started. At first everything was pretty much chill. France had surrendered Canada to the Brits but life went on pretty much the same because the entire population was still French.

A major shift happened with the American Revolution. Loads of "Loyalists" (settlers loyal to the British Crown) fled the States to Canada. The Brits then started to take lands away from Francos and give them to those Anglos because they had priority. From then on the Anglos' demographic weight grew to match the Francos. And the Anglos were always favored by the British Crown for everything.

That tangent went on for a long time. The dynamic that sprung up from that was actually based as much on religion as on language. Anglos were Protestant and Francos were Catholics. Protestantism is much more liberal, so Anglos were more attracted to liberal professions, industry, sciences, etc. Catholicism is much more dogmatic and authoritarian. The leaders of Francos, those who had authority and influence, were mostly clergy folks. The Anglos has the British Crown, the Francos had the Church.

The philosophy of the Church was that French-Canadians had to remain good Catholics. It was a conservative, traditionalist, self-preservation credo. Basically the plan was for Francos to live off the land, make kids, go to Church and leave the rest to the Anglos. Something the Anglos were way too happy.

In short, the Catholic Church basically turned the Francos into cheap-labor, 2nd-class citizens ready to be exploited by the ruling Anglos. That's the sort of Master-slave relationship that inspired the moniker "White ######s of America" to described the French-Canadians.

So you have the Francos who went into a shell to preserve its religion and language, and then you have the Anglos who pretty much own everything and rule everything and exploit the under-privileged Francos as much as they can.

And then... Francos start cutting their ties with the Catholic Church. All changes from then on.

Francos want to break free from the authoritarian Church and become a modern people. They're tired of all the dogmas and taboos, etc. And at the same time as they want to break away from the oppression of the Catholic Church, they also want to break away from the oppression of the ruling Anglos. And that doesnt sit well with the Anglos, so the Anglos resist the Francos' emergence in all spheres of society: Francos are held down.

So all in a sudden comes this Franco hockey player who's better than any hockey player before him, and better than all the Anglos against which he plays. Maurice Richard. Not only that, but when Anglo players try to stop him and Anglo refs dont call penalties and Anglo staff of the NHL turn a blind eye, Richard kicks the players ass, push the refs and blasts the League.

In mythological psychoanalysist, a "hero" is described as a device by which the psyche condense the strength needed by the individual to surpass himself and reach a new level of cousciousness and self-determination. On a societal scale, that's exactly what Maurice Richard was. He embodied and did things Francos wanted to do but didnt knew how. Richard not only stood up to the Anglos, but bettered them. He was a hero in that sense.

There's your national vessel right there.

[KoZed]

They stink. Really. Relica of the past... I hate them more every day.

The thing with Raymond and Tremblay is that they've been around the team for so long, it stopped being a sports thing and has started to become a personal thing. They know this guy and this guy and that other guy said such a thing about this other guy because that other guy had done this to that other guy 20 years ago. You know what I mean? Ask them about the good rookies in the league and they'll tell you it should be that 5'5 Franco kid who was a scoring machine in the QMJHL but hasnt been given a chance to make the NHL because they dont f***ing know anyone around the league.

[JLP]

Hold it right there. Quebecor doesnt own the province... yet.

Hmm, I could try to sum it all up.

There is not precise date that you can point at and say that's when the divide between Anglos and Francos started. At first everything was pretty much chill. France had surrendered Canada to the Brits but life went on pretty much the same because the entire population was still French.

A major shift happened with the American Revolution. Loads of "Loyalists" (settlers loyal to the British Crown) fled the States to Canada. The Brits then started to take lands away from Francos and give them to those Anglos because they had priority. From then on the Anglos' demographic weight grew to match the Francos. And the Anglos were always favored by the British Crown for everything.

That tangent went on for a long time. The dynamic that sprung up from that was actually based as much on religion as on language. Anglos were Protestant and Francos were Catholics. Protestantism is much more liberal, so Anglos were more attracted to liberal professions, industry, sciences, etc. Catholicism is much more dogmatic and authoritarian. The leaders of Francos, those who had authority and influence, were mostly clergy folks. The Anglos has the British Crown, the Francos had the Church.

The philosophy of the Church was that French-Canadians had to remain good Catholics. It was a conservative, traditionalist, self-preservation credo. Basically the plan was for Francos to live off the land, make kids, go to Church and leave the rest to the Anglos. Something the Anglos were way too happy.

In short, the Catholic Church basically turned the Francos into cheap-labor, 2nd-class citizens ready to be exploited by the ruling Anglos. That's the sort of Master-slave relationship that inspired the moniker "White ######s of America" to described the French-Canadians.

So you have the Francos who went into a shell to preserve its religion and language, and then you have the Anglos who pretty much own everything and rule everything and exploit the under-privileged Francos as much as they can.

And then... Francos start cutting their ties with the Catholic Church. All changes from then on.

Francos want to break free from the authoritarian Church and become a modern people. They're tired of all the dogmas and taboos, etc. And at the same time as they want to break away from the oppression of the Catholic Church, they also want to break away from the oppression of the ruling Anglos. And that doesnt sit well with the Anglos, so the Anglos resist the Francos' emergence in all spheres of society: Francos are held down.

So all in a sudden comes this Franco hockey player who's better than any hockey player before him, and better than all the Anglos against which he plays. Maurice Richard. Not only that, but when Anglo players try to stop him and Anglo refs dont call penalties and Anglo staff of the NHL turn a blind eye, Richard kicks the players ass, push the refs and blasts the League.

In mythological psychoanalysist, a "hero" is described as a device by which the psyche condense the strength needed by the individual to surpass himself and reach a new level of cousciousness and self-determination. On a societal scale, that's exactly what Maurice Richard was. He embodied and did things Francos wanted to do but didnt knew how. Richard not only stood up to the Anglos, but bettered them. He was a hero in that sense.

There's your national vessel right there.

What? No mention of the Dorchester Report?

[markierung]

What? No mention of the Dorchester Report?

You mean Durham Report?

[JLP]

You mean Durham Report?

Right, thanks. i meant the Durham Report. As an anglo quebecois just wanted to point out that the french language was also preserved in part thanks to Durham. And while I'm infusing balance, I'll venture to say the quebecois were kept down not only by the Catholic church but also by the likes of Duplessis.

But I mostly agree with KoZed's analysis.

[KoZed]

Right, thanks. i meant the Durham Report. As an anglo quebecois just wanted to point out that the french language was also preserved in part thanks to Durham.

???

Not sure I get the logic of that.

Lord Durham suggested assimilation of the French. He basically said that French-Canadians had no history, no culture, and were a stale people who hadnt progressed in 200 years.

Durham wanted the Quebec Act of 1774 (Free practice of Catholicism and French Civil Law) to be abolished to avoid more rebellions (Patriotes).

And while I'm infusing balance, I'll venture to say the quebecois were kept down not only by the Catholic church but also by the likes of Duplessis.

But I mostly agree with KoZed's analysis.

The likes of Duplessis were walking hand-in-hand with the Church, as it kept them in power to keep the masses obedient to the Church, ie. illiterate, unambitious, etc.

[JLP]

Lord Durham suggested assimilation of the French. He basically said that French-Canadians had no history, no culture, and were a stale people who hadnt progressed in 200 years.

Durham wanted the Quebec Act of 1774 (Free practice of Catholicism and French Civil Law) to be abolished to avoid more rebellions (Patriotes).

Right, I have officially forgotten all my Canadian history. Who wrote the recommendation for the Quebec Act, the benevolent Brit who believed the Quebecois should be allowed to keep French Civil Law and their language?

*searches Wiki*

Ah, it was Dorchester, so that's why that name bobbed up on the decaying mush of my mind. Real name "Guy" and damn they took away his street, Guys get no love in the Q to the C.

[KoZed]

Right, I have officially forgotten all my Canadian history. Who wrote the recommendation for the Quebec Act, the benevolent Brit who believed the Quebecois should be allowed to keep French Civil Law and their language?

*searches Wiki*

Ah, it was Dorchester, so that's why that name bobbed up on the decaying mush of my mind. Real name "Guy" and damn they took away his street, Guys get no love in the Q to the C.

Yah, Dorchester. I remember the Dorchester Boulevard before it get rechristened René-Levesque because that's Radio-Canada's street and in every kid TV show where you could send stuff (like shitty drawings) the adress was on Dorchester.

Pôvre Guys.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Interesting stuff.

Thanks Kozed and Alex.

[zumpano21]

Can someone explain Quebec's language laws as it might pertain to a western Canadian hockey player who is drafted by the Habs and who wants to start a family in Quebec?

[JLP]

Can someone explain Quebec's language laws as it might pertain to a western Canadian hockey player who is drafted by the Habs and who wants to start a family in Quebec?

Well, in Québec, there's way more hot chicks a financially-advantaged professional hockey player might interest in helping to start his family. Once the kids are old enough to go to school, he can send them to private English schools if he likes, LCC and ECS then Marianopolis is the usual route . . . Not a big problem if you're a Habs draftee I would think . . .

[ForumGhost]

Wasn't there some kind of technicality that would have forced Shanahan's kids to go to french school?

[BTH]

Larry Robinson: "I'd like to stay in hockey in some capacity, whether as head coach, assistant coach - not so much head coach - or in a consulting role."

That is amazing. Robinson's more interested in being an assistant than a head coach. This is our chance to grab that D coach we've wanted, have Robinson's expertise on board (in a low-pressure role) AND hire a francophone hockey mind in Hartley that'll handle the media. Bob has a chance here to salvage what I think was a horrific decision in firing Carbo.

[zumpano21]

Wasn't there some kind of technicality that would have forced Shanahan's kids to go to french school?

This is what I'm getting at. From looking at Bill 101, it was not 100% clear to me that a western canadian player would ever want to play in Quebec because his kids might be forced to attend a French school. Add in the crippling taxes, that Quebecers pay and I'm not sure why anyone would want to play in Montreal. As a Habs fan, I'm getting used to the idea that we may never be an elite team again because we start at a disadvantage before training camp even opens.

[Fanpuck33]

This is what I'm getting at. From looking at Bill 101, it was not 100% clear to me that a western canadian player would ever want to play in Quebec because his kids might be forced to attend a French school. Add in the crippling taxes, that Quebecers pay and I'm not sure why anyone would want to play in Montreal. As a Habs fan, I'm getting used to the idea that we may never be an elite team again because we start at a disadvantage before training camp even opens.

Both of those excuses are BS. A professional athlete is going to send his kids to private school 9 times out of 10 and the taxes are hardly crippling for million dollar athletes. Oh no! I'm only going to get 50% of my millions instead of 60%! Cry me a river.

[zumpano21]

Both of those excuses are BS. A professional athlete is going to send his kids to private school 9 times out of 10 and the taxes are hardly crippling for million dollar athletes. Oh no! I'm only going to get 50% of my millions instead of 60%! Cry me a river.

Wrong. Wrong and wrong. As a conservative American, I'm actually quite surprised you would have this viewpoint.

[ForumGhost]

Both of those excuses are BS. A professional athlete is going to send his kids to private school 9 times out of 10 and the taxes are hardly crippling for million dollar athletes. Oh no! I'm only going to get 50% of my millions instead of 60%! Cry me a river.

Well one one hand, you can be forced to send your kids to a private school and you can pay the extra taxes. But on the other hand, you could not. Seems like a pretty obvious choice to me. That, combined with the media pressure and miserable winters, and it's pretty easy to see why Montreal is at a clear disadvantage when trying to attract free agents.

Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but wasn't the school thing one of Shanahan's deal-breakers?

Edited May 9, 2009 by ForumGhost

[Colin]

Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but wasn't the school thing one of Shanahan's deal-breakers?

As I recall, the major deal-breaker was his wife, who wanted New York.

[saskhab]

As I recall, the major deal-breaker was his wife, who wanted New York.

Yeah, I think he lives in Connecticut (or western Mass/Rhode Island, not sure but I think it goes back to his Hartford days), even when he was playing in Detroit. He wanted to play close to home. The Habs were a good option at the time, but then the Rangers came in at the last minute and the deal was done pretty quickly.

It was also why he was rumored to be playing for Philly, Pittsburgh, and Jersey this past year after the Rangers didn't bring him back.

It had nothing to do with taxes or schools. That maybe played a role in someone like Rafalski or Arnott, I don't know, but for Shanahan it was simply playing close to his home. For the longest time in that 2006 offseason, the Habs best fit his interests... until the Rags stepped up after Brendan had already visited Montreal.

Edited May 9, 2009 by saskhab

[alexstream]

Why would they be forced to go to French school if e.g. Macaskill, a Montrealer, has done all his studies in English and the only words he knows in french are "je veux du ketchup". ( )

I think that thing only applies with kids whose parents went to school in french, like Carbo (that's why he returned to Dallas after his stint as Michel Therrien's assistant)

[KoZed]

This is what I'm getting at. From looking at Bill 101, it was not 100% clear to me that a western canadian player would ever want to play in Quebec because his kids might be forced to attend a French school. Add in the crippling taxes, that Quebecers pay and I'm not sure why anyone would want to play in Montreal. As a Habs fan, I'm getting used to the idea that we may never be an elite team again because we start at a disadvantage before training camp even opens.

Bill 101 is overruled by Article 23 of the Canadian Bill of Rights on Official Languages.

Article 23 states that, In Canada, a parent who has received his education in Canada in one of the official languages, has the right to send his kids to a school in the same language, anywhere in Canada, where the number allows it. Ie. Any Westerner who went to English school and goes to Montreal can has the right to send his kids in an English school where the number allows it. If you're a Westerner and go to some village in Abitibi, you might have a right to send your kids to English school, but if there's not enough English-speaking people in that village to warrant an English school, you're SOOL.

That was Trudeau's solution to Quebec nationalism. Trudeau opposed individual rights (rights that would follow individuals anywhere in Canada) to Quebec nationalists collective rights (different rights for different linguistic groups), theorizing that if French-Canadians/Quebecois had the same rights to education in French in BC or Alberta as they did in Quebec, they wouldnt support Quebec nationalism; and it also protected the rights of Anglophone in Quebec so they could avoid assimilation by Quebecois.

The "where numbers requires it" part is vague and ambiguous. It was a big contentious point in Western Canada for some time because the Provincial governments kept closing French schools because they interpretated the law in disfavor of French communities.

Where Bill 101 comes up, is that in Quebec, if you've went to a French school, you're forced to send your kids to French school as well; and if you're an Immigrant (ie. didnt receive your education in Canada, therefore not protected by Article 23) you also have to send your kids to French school. This is mostly to discourage French parents from Montreal and new Immigrants parents to send their kids to English schools. 

[zumpano21]

Bill 101 is overruled by Article 23 of the Canadian Bill of Rights on Official Languages.

Article 23 states that, In Canada, a parent who has received his education in Canada in one of the official languages, has the right to send his kids to a school in the same language, anywhere in Canada, where the number allows it. Ie. Any Westerner who went to English school and goes to Montreal can has the right to send his kids in an English school where the number allows it. If you're a Westerner and go to some village in Abitibi, you might have a right to send your kids to English school, but if there's not enough English-speaking people in that village to warrant an English school, you're SOOL.

That was Trudeau's solution to Quebec nationalism. Trudeau opposed individual rights (rights that would follow individuals anywhere in Canada) to Quebec nationalists collective rights (different rights for different linguistic groups), theorizing that if French-Canadians/Quebecois had the same rights to education in French in BC or Alberta as they did in Quebec, they wouldnt support Quebec nationalism; and it also protected the rights of Anglophone in Quebec so they could avoid assimilation by Quebecois.

The "where numbers requires it" part is vague and ambiguous. It was a big contentious point in Western Canada for some time because the Provincial governments kept closing French schools because they interpretated the law in disfavor of French communities.

Where Bill 101 comes up, is that in Quebec, if you've went to a French school, you're forced to send your kids to French school as well; and if you're an Immigrant (ie. didnt receive your education in Canada, therefore not protected by Article 23) you also have to send your kids to French school. This is mostly to discourage French parents from Montreal and new Immigrants parents to send their kids to English schools. 

Thanks. Much appreciated.

[alexstream]

Bill 101 is overruled by Article 23 of the Canadian Bill of Rights on Official Languages.

Article 23 states that, In Canada, a parent who has received his education in Canada in one of the official languages, has the right to send his kids to a school in the same language, anywhere in Canada, where the number allows it. Ie. Any Westerner who went to English school and goes to Montreal can has the right to send his kids in an English school where the number allows it. If you're a Westerner and go to some village in Abitibi, you might have a right to send your kids to English school, but if there's not enough English-speaking people in that village to warrant an English school, you're SOOL.

That was Trudeau's solution to Quebec nationalism. Trudeau opposed individual rights (rights that would follow individuals anywhere in Canada) to Quebec nationalists collective rights (different rights for different linguistic groups), theorizing that if French-Canadians/Quebecois had the same rights to education in French in BC or Alberta as they did in Quebec, they wouldnt support Quebec nationalism; and it also protected the rights of Anglophone in Quebec so they could avoid assimilation by Quebecois.

The "where numbers requires it" part is vague and ambiguous. It was a big contentious point in Western Canada for some time because the Provincial governments kept closing French schools because they interpretated the law in disfavor of French communities.

Where Bill 101 comes up, is that in Quebec, if you've went to a French school, you're forced to send your kids to French school as well; and if you're an Immigrant (ie. didnt receive your education in Canada, therefore not protected by Article 23) you also have to send your kids to French school. This is mostly to discourage French parents from Montreal and new Immigrants parents to send their kids to English schools. 

So any UFA from canada cannot have this 101 argument... however, UFA from around the world with school age kids can.

[KoZed]

So any UFA from canada cannot have this 101 argument... however, UFA from around the world with school age kids can.

Yep.

And Quebec-born players too. That was the issue with Carbo. His youngest daughter started her education in an English school in Dallas, but with Bill 101 since Guy had his education in French in Quebec, his daughter would have been forced to go to a French school.