alexstream Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 Yep. And Quebec-born players too. That was the issue with Carbo. His youngest daughter started her education in an English school in Dallas, but with Bill 101 since Guy had his education in French in Quebec, his daughter would have been forced to go to a French school. yeah --> Why would they be forced to go to French school if e.g. Macaskill, a Montrealer, has done all his studies in English and the only words he knows in french are "je veux du ketchup". ( ) I think that thing only applies with kids whose parents went to school in french, like Carbo (that's why he returned to Dallas after his stint as Michel Therrien's assistant) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Well one one hand, you can be forced to send your kids to a private school and you can pay the extra taxes. But on the other hand, you could not. Seems like a pretty obvious choice to me. That, combined with the media pressure and miserable winters, and it's pretty easy to see why Montreal is at a clear disadvantage when trying to attract free agents. What percentage of NHLers do you think are sending their kids to public schools? These are rich people we're talking about and kids with famous parents. They're going to private school to begin with, nobody is forcing them. As for taxes, what is a couple hundred thousand when you're making millions of dollars? If a millionaire doesn't want to come to Montreal because of 10% more taxes, then we shouldn't even be asking for his services, he obviously doesn't want to be a Hab. I play hockey and happen to get paid for it, not guys who want to get paid to play hockey. This is the biggest problem in sports, too many guys playing for money instead of love of the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) Well why would he wanna be a habs if it means having to pay an extra couple hundred thousand dollars? It's nice to be all starry-eyed about the legendary CH and all that noise but if it were my professional career, I would be asking myself the same questions. Realistically, you gotta start looking at what sells Montreal over other cities where you will not only be playing, but living and possibly raising a family. In terms of practicality, we don't have much going for us. The language barrier is the obvious culprit. Edited May 10, 2009 by ForumGhost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 The language barrier is the obvious culprit. Obvious, but not real. Montreal has a lot more downsides that weight in more than language. In the end, Montreal is a multiethnic metropole like you'll find anywhere else in N-America. As it's been pointed out, you can easily live you entire life in Montreal without having to learn or use a word of French. Team struggles, provincial taxes, weather, distance, ugliness, bad roads, lack of other pro sports, lack of big endorsement deals, etc. There's plenty of much more decisive, concrete culprits than language and medias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 you can easily live you entire life in Montreal without having to learn or use a word of French. Uhhhhh, sorry but I don't buy that for a second. Moving to a city where a language you don't know is the primary language is totally alienating. Not only would it make life mor difficult for the player, but then you have to start thinking of how difficult it will be for your family to integrate as well. You have to know french to some degree to live in Montreal. If there was any possible way to live here without speaking french, trust me, I would have already discovered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Well why would he wanna be a habs if it means having to pay an extra couple hundred thousand dollars? It's nice to be all starry-eyed about the legendary CH and all that noise but if it were my professional career, I would be asking myself the same questions. Realistically, you gotta start looking at what sells Montreal over other cities where you will not only be playing, but living and possibly raising a family. In terms of practicality, we don't have much going for us. The language barrier is the obvious culprit. These are professional athletes we're talking about. A couple hundred thousand to them is like your or I losing 100 bucks in a poker game with friends. Yeah, we're upset we lost money, but we'll get over it. Even with the high taxes, a guy making 4 million or more is going to earn in a single season what the average person earns in a life time. After that, everything is gravy. Language barrier my butt. Almost half the population speaks English and 95% of people in businesses in the Montreal area are bilingual, because it's good for business to speak both. It's not hard for a player to get by with English. It might not be entirely enjoyable, but hardly difficult enough to call it a barrier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 Uhhhhh, sorry but I don't buy that for a second. Moving to a city where a language you don't know is the primary language is totally alienating. Not only would it make life mor difficult for the player, but then you have to start thinking of how difficult it will be for your family to integrate as well. You have to know french to some degree to live in Montreal. If there was any possible way to live here without speaking french, trust me, I would have already discovered it. Ask Macaskill how he's living it. I'm not blaming him at all, but I know for a fact that his french is really sub-par and he even openly admits it. he's from montreal, born in mtl, etc... and he's not even in a mainly english part of the west island (e.g. DDO, Beaconsfield, Kirkland), he's from Lasalle (I think?)... And he doesn't have any problem that I am aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) These are professional athletes we're talking about. A couple hundred thousand to them is like your or I losing 100 bucks in a poker game with friends. Yeah, we're upset we lost money, but we'll get over it. Even with the high taxes, a guy making 4 million or more is going to earn in a single season what the average person earns in a life time. After that, everything is gravy. Language barrier my butt. Almost half the population speaks English and 95% of people in businesses in the Montreal area are bilingual, because it's good for business to speak both. It's not hard for a player to get by with English. It might not be entirely enjoyable, but hardly difficult enough to call it a barrier. You're missing the point though. Sure, these things might not be major, but they fact is they exist where they don't in every other hockey town. If you could choose to lose 100 bucks in a poker game or not, what would you choose? Sure, 50% of the people may speak english, but compare that that to every other hockey city, where it's about 100%. What makes playing for the Habs worth the taxes, language, media, etc.? The answer is nothing. Everyone needs to get off their high horses and realize we are nothing except one of the thirty teams in the NHL. Admittedly, Montreal is a great city to live in when compared to, say, Edmonton, but that all depends on who you talk to. Edited May 10, 2009 by ForumGhost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 These are professional athletes we're talking about. A couple hundred thousand to them is like your or I losing 100 bucks in a poker game with friends. Yeah, we're upset we lost money, but we'll get over it. Even with the high taxes, a guy making 4 million or more is going to earn in a single season what the average person earns in a life time. After that, everything is gravy. Language barrier my butt. Almost half the population speaks English and 95% of people in businesses in the Montreal area are bilingual, because it's good for business to speak both. It's not hard for a player to get by with English. It might not be entirely enjoyable, but hardly difficult enough to call it a barrier. yah, you are right in principle. but they see it as follows: highest combined (prov + fed) tax rate in NA is Qc with 48% lowest combined in Canada is Alberta with 39% lowest in NA in the states at 35%(Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, Wyoming, New Hampshire and Tennessee and the others are spread from roughly 38 - illinois- to roughly 48 - California) we'll take Komisarek at 5M per season X 5 years. I know that what I'm listing is the "marginal" tax rate... but when the floor for the marginal to step in is at 300k Maximum (in the states) and minimum 110k (in Qc), marginal gets really close to total when you get to 5M with a .1 - .3% difference. gross 5M per 25M total net : Qc 2.6M per 13M total Alberta 3.05M per 15.25M total Nashville, Florida, Dallas, TBay 3.25M per 16.25M total so if Nashvill offers 5M per / 25M total to komi, we have to offer 6.25Mper /31.25M total to EQUAL their offer. yes that's a rough picture, and yes you could come up with slightly different numbers, with a 200k discrepancy... I don't care. we're not talking about about hundred thounsands differences, we're talking about MILLIONS! 3.25M net difference over 5 year is a lot of dough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) Obvious, but not real. Montreal has a lot more downsides that weight in more than language. In the end, Montreal is a multiethnic metropole like you'll find anywhere else in N-America. As it's been pointed out, you can easily live you entire life in Montreal without having to learn or use a word of French. Team struggles, provincial taxes, weather, distance, ugliness, bad roads, lack of other pro sports, lack of big endorsement deals, etc. There's plenty of much more decisive, concrete culprits than language and medias. I think you nailed the two biggest. Taxes and weather. Bad roads? I'll assume you've never been to Detroit. With all do respect to anyone that may live there, it's shockingly ugly. Not a neighborhood in all of Canada as ugly as Detroit. The Bronx?? Holy Cow, now that's a complete slum. Yankees personnel have to literally plan there route into the stadium, to avoid the traffic. They should receive danger pay. What ugliness are you reffering to? Visited Philadelphia lately, I have, just keep your doors locked in your car at all times. Edited May 10, 2009 by Habsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 I think you nailed the two biggest. Taxes and weather. Bad roads? I'll assume you've never been to Detroit. With all do respect to anyone that may live there, it's shockingly ugly. Not a neighborhood in all of Canada as ugly as Detroit. The Bronx?? Holy Cow, now that's a complete slum. Yankees personnel have to literally plan there route into the stadium, to avoid the traffic. They should receive danger pay. What ugliness are you reffering to? Visited Philadelphia lately, I have, just keep your doors locked in your car at all times. yes, actually, MTL is among the top for everything related to city itself... disregarding the language, the taxes, the weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Bill 101 is overruled by Article 23 of the Canadian Bill of Rights on Official Languages. Article 23 states that, In Canada, a parent who has received his education in Canada in one of the official languages, has the right to send his kids to a school in the same language, anywhere in Canada, where the number allows it. Ie. Any Westerner who went to English school and goes to Montreal can has the right to send his kids in an English school where the number allows it. If you're a Westerner and go to some village in Abitibi, you might have a right to send your kids to English school, but if there's not enough English-speaking people in that village to warrant an English school, you're SOOL. That was Trudeau's solution to Quebec nationalism. Trudeau opposed individual rights (rights that would follow individuals anywhere in Canada) to Quebec nationalists collective rights (different rights for different linguistic groups), theorizing that if French-Canadians/Quebecois had the same rights to education in French in BC or Alberta as they did in Quebec, they wouldnt support Quebec nationalism; and it also protected the rights of Anglophone in Quebec so they could avoid assimilation by Quebecois. The "where numbers requires it" part is vague and ambiguous. It was a big contentious point in Western Canada for some time because the Provincial governments kept closing French schools because they interpretated the law in disfavor of French communities. Where Bill 101 comes up, is that in Quebec, if you've went to a French school, you're forced to send your kids to French school as well; and if you're an Immigrant (ie. didnt receive your education in Canada, therefore not protected by Article 23) you also have to send your kids to French school. This is mostly to discourage French parents from Montreal and new Immigrants parents to send their kids to English schools. Actually, most large towns in the west have at least one French school. My children spent a couple of years in French school in a town of 15,000. Towns smaller than that, don't have the population to support it. I don't think there is a political agenda to closing French schools. Probabaly, they get closed due to lack of interest. The perception in the East may be different, but I think it is just like a business. If a portion of your business is not working, you downsize.Many English schools have been closed in the West also, as retirees dominate many areas, and industries close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Uhhhhh, sorry but I don't buy that for a second. Moving to a city where a language you don't know is the primary language is totally alienating. Not only would it make life mor difficult for the player, but then you have to start thinking of how difficult it will be for your family to integrate as well. You have to know french to some degree to live in Montreal. If there was any possible way to live here without speaking french, trust me, I would have already discovered it. In my line of work, I get to work with old folks from the West. They've lived their entire life in Montreal and they can't understand or speak a word of French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Bad roads? I'll assume you've never been to Detroit. With all do respect to anyone that may live there, it's shockingly ugly. Not a neighborhood in all of Canada as ugly as Detroit. The Bronx?? Holy Cow, now that's a complete slum. Yankees personnel have to literally plan there route into the stadium, to avoid the traffic. They should receive danger pay. What ugliness are you reffering to? Visited Philadelphia lately, I have, just keep your doors locked in your car at all times. Well I live in Quebec City: basically any big city is dirty and ugly in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Ask Macaskill how he's living it. I'm not blaming him at all, but I know for a fact that his french is really sub-par and he even openly admits it. he's from montreal, born in mtl, etc... and he's not even in a mainly english part of the west island (e.g. DDO, Beaconsfield, Kirkland), he's from Lasalle (I think?)... And he doesn't have any problem that I am aware of. I work with a friend of Matthew (well, they know each others on facebook...) and it is the same scenario with him. His french is as bad as my Cantonese can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Actually, most large towns in the west have at least one French school. My children spent a couple of years in French school in a town of 15,000. Towns smaller than that, don't have the population to support it. I don't think there is a political agenda to closing French schools. Probabaly, they get closed due to lack of interest. The perception in the East may be different, but I think it is just like a business. If a portion of your business is not working, you downsize.Many English schools have been closed in the West also, as retirees dominate many areas, and industries close. I was talking about a period in the early 80's, right after the Bill was ratified, where some cities and provincial Governments basically challenged the law by closing schools. Manitoba had the most notorious cases that went to the Supreme Court and basically gave us all the jurisprudence on that law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 I was talking about a period in the early 80's, right after the Bill was ratified, where some cities and provincial Governments basically challenged the law by closing schools. Manitoba had the most notorious cases that went to the Supreme Court and basically gave us all the jurisprudence on that law. yah, and anglos were fleeing away in masses, they were scared to death... that was funny. scared of ... having to use french from time to time?! lots of companies fled to TO that way... it kinda helped TO big time and was noxious in no mesurable way to Montreal. Heck even BMO - Bank of Montreal is based in TO. It'd be funny to see TD bank move to Quebec city now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 yah, and anglos were fleeing away in masses, they were scared to death... that was funny. scared of ... having to use french from time to time?! I loved going up to Montreal (I was nearly a resident, I was there so often...I used to frequent DJs on Crescent on Thursday night for the all-you-can-drink $10) when I lived in NY. Growing up, I used to listen to Habs games in french on the radio (admittedly when I couldn't tune in to Dick Irvin's radio broadcasts). I'm typical in the fact that I'm better at reading/hearing that writing and speaking. But I still remember the first time I was asked if I had the time, and was able to respond in french without getting looked at like I was a complete moron. And forgive my ignorance, but was one consequence of Bill 101 the removal of bilingual street signs? I remember growing up and seeing the dual Arret/Stop signs, and then equally remember when they disappeared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Well, Schwartz's became 's Schwartz after 101 - I saw them out on the street with a ladder, sawing the end of their plastic sign and just putting the apostrophe-s at the front, giving it a real feeling francais. And the stonecutter across the street had to take away his sign; problem was it was carved onto a headstone that looked like it weighed 10 tons... Ah, the madness, the good old days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 yah, and anglos were fleeing away in masses, they were scared to death... that was funny. scared of ... having to use french from time to time?! lots of companies fled to TO that way... it kinda helped TO big time and was noxious in no mesurable way to Montreal. Heck even BMO - Bank of Montreal is based in TO. It'd be funny to see TD bank move to Quebec city now There's a huge misconception that businesses who left Montreal in the 70's did so because of the PQ, language and independence threat. It was a contributing factor, but the first and foremost factor was Trudeau's oil policy from 73 to 79. In order to develop Western Canada's oil production, Trudeau's government divided the country in two parts at the Ottawa Valley. The West part had to buy it's oil from Western Canada at a higher price; and the East had to buy it from foreign countries. At first it enraged the West because the Canadian oil was more expensive and taxed, so Trudeau asked them to freeze the price; while Eastern Canada enjoyed cheaper gas. But later the international oil prices rose, so its the East that got screwed since they were forced to buy oil on the world market while the rest of the country was enjoying the cheaper, capped price of Canadian oil. So what happened? Activities in the Montreal port dwindled and industrial activities followed suit, and so did businesses. The PQ and Bill 101 only added to the exile already set in motion years before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMAC Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 And forgive my ignorance, but was one consequence of Bill 101 the removal of bilingual street signs? I remember growing up and seeing the dual Arret/Stop signs, and then equally remember when they disappeared. This one kills me because if you travel anywhere else in the world...including French speaking countries, including FRANCE, the stop signs say stop or are bi or tri-lingual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 This one kills me because if you travel anywhere else in the world...including French speaking countries, including FRANCE, the stop signs say stop or are bi or tri-lingual. I think it's because the French aren't worried that bilingual stop signs are the beginning of a slippery slope that will end with the francos being hunted down by anglo cyborgs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 This one kills me because if you travel anywhere else in the world...including French speaking countries, including FRANCE, the stop signs say stop or are bi or tri-lingual. Not entirely true. Many places have only local word on the sign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign What kills me though is that anyone that drives anywhere in the world would actually need to read the word on it an not recognize the shape of a stop sign. Anyways. I'm like Huz, when I grew up there was both words on it. So like everybody, we called the sign an "Arret-atop", as if it was any other hyphened name; which is stupid. It's like saying a "Rue-street" or a "Glace-ice". Glad they changed it for that reason alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I think it's because the French aren't worried that bilingual stop signs are the beginning of a slippery slope that will end with the francos being hunted down by anglo cyborgs. You mean France's french, the people who still haven't found out a translation for "shopping" and "weekend" but can't bring themselves to say "T-Shirt"? The same France's french people who now look up to Quebec for clues on how to speak and write proper french? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 And forgive my ignorance, but was one consequence of Bill 101 the removal of bilingual street signs? I remember growing up and seeing the dual Arret/Stop signs, and then equally remember when they disappeared. Yeah, I think that comes from Bill 101 because I remember some caricature when it was announced that they'd change them. The caricature was about the debate on the issue, which apparently was pretty controversial. The caricature had some farmer say that he had found a sign that was more reflective of the Quebecois culture, and the drawing had him plant a sign written "Wôôôô" on it. Took a long time though, the street signs were still bilingual in the late 80's. I remember they went out gradually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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