Michael Sabia - Habs coach language related

[Habsfan]

This conversation is fun. What I am gathering from everyone, is that we all recognize the importance of the French language in Quebec. I for one embrace it. I am western, and I understand the frustration of Francophones when discussing this subject. I understand it for a different reason. In the west, I often hear people venting because Quebec is so insistent that the language is so important. I embrace different cultures in society, and reject assimilation of the corpporate monster that has spread like an infection throughout the world. When I was in Quebec, loved it so much, because I felt like I was insulated from the world of big box stores and sameness that I find in so many North American cities. What I also think we can all agree on is that if an Anglo coach were hired, he would probably be accepted if he said Merci, the first interview, then expanded, and throughout his interviews showed an honest effort at communicating in the native language of the province. It is this effort, which should be applauded.

Great post! I especially liked the last part!

[JoeLassister]

This conversation is fun. What I am gathering from everyone, is that we all recognize the importance of the French language in Quebec. I for one embrace it. I am western, and I understand the frustration of Francophones when discussing this subject. I understand it for a different reason. In the west, I often hear people venting because Quebec is so insistent that the language is so important. I embrace different cultures in society, and reject assimilation of the corpporate monster that has spread like an infection throughout the world. When I was in Quebec, loved it so much, because I felt like I was insulated from the world of big box stores and sameness that I find in so many North American cities. What I also think we can all agree on is that if an Anglo coach were hired, he would probably be accepted if he said Merci, the first interview, then expanded, and throughout his interviews showed an honest effort at communicating in the native language of the province. It is this effort, which should be applauded.

Well said.

Real hockey fans would be pleased. Even me, a separatisssss, would appreciate it, as a real hockey fan who put sports performance higher than language, history and politic. But I'm in the minority. Sad hey ??

It is sad because we are on a HOCKEY forum, where everyone here probably place sports (the Habs in this case) higher than language, history and politic.

Let's have the same discussion, on www.GastronomieWorld.net or www.WindowsVistaWorld.net, then you'll see that many many people place history, politic and language (aka a french speaking coach) higher than the Montreal Canadien itself.

Edited May 6, 2009 by JoeLassister

[ForumGhost]

This conversation is fun. What I am gathering from everyone, is that we all recognize the importance of the French language in Quebec. I for one embrace it. I am western, and I understand the frustration of Francophones when discussing this subject. I understand it for a different reason. In the west, I often hear people venting because Quebec is so insistent that the language is so important. I embrace different cultures in society, and reject assimilation of the corpporate monster that has spread like an infection throughout the world. When I was in Quebec, loved it so much, because I felt like I was insulated from the world of big box stores and sameness that I find in so many North American cities. What I also think we can all agree on is that if an Anglo coach were hired, he would probably be accepted if he said Merci, the first interview, then expanded, and throughout his interviews showed an honest effort at communicating in the native language of the province. It is this effort, which should be applauded.

Well, if you were an Anglo living in Montreal like myself, you might see it differently. I also reject assimilation, particularly the attempts of the francophones to assimilate everyone into the French culture.

[tokyohabs]

Depends how you look at it FG. Assimilation or self-preservation? The culture was being overwhelmed by anglo/US media bombardment. They take steps to preserve, but pro-active steps to promote, develop, grow. In favour of that. Never had a problem with it, never felt I was threatened in any way, never thought I had to get out of town because of that (did so for other reasons, but I'll be back soon enough).

It is a different culture, distinct society. BC's comment of big-box sameness is very pertinent. Everywhere I've been in NA I get that feeling (major urban centres), except back home.

Anyway, is it such a major leap to have someone speak the language of the place they live? There are all the advantages of speaking two languages to go with it. If we HAD to take Mario Tremblay for the only reason that he was Quebecois, then I think even Boivin might start to see things different. But we don't, we can come out very well. And there are classes one can take, even as an adult.

By the way, will the new HC have to report to Uncle George in French, English, or pound sterling?

[Prime Minister Koivu]

This thread seems to have very little to do with the Montreal Canadiens. It appears the Habs are just a vessel.

If all that has been said here is true then the best thing for the Habs would be to move outside of Quebec. Any other province would do just fine and nobody would give two shits if the coach spoke only french in an english city. Stanley cups is what would matter.

[alexstream]

This thread seems to have very little to do with the Montreal Canadiens. It appears the Habs are just a vessel.

If all that has been said here is true then the best thing for the Habs would be to move outside of Quebec. Any other province would do just fine and nobody would give two shits if the coach spoke only french in an english city. Stanley cups is what would matter.

partly right... but look at Phoenix, not competitive since they are in Phoenix, while they were starting to kick asses in Winnipeg.

ATL, FLA, TB

nobody cares over there... so the team sucks.

so if you mean habs move to hamilton... then, yeah, maybe partly right, the habs wouldn't care about the language of the coach...

but on the other hand, are you aware of all the shit the Leafs have to go through?!

the Rangers?!

The 3 biggest hockey markets (NY, TO, MTL) in the league all have their pros... and their cons... if you wanna list "language" in Montreal cons, do so. it's one on the list.

However, right now, I do not envy either one of the Rangers or the Leafs... so I'm thinking, maybe it sounds worse than it really is. Maybe "quand on se compare on se console" (if you compare to other situations, your situation is less saddening!)

Also, with some changes to the Media scrutinity (which might happen at some time in the future, we never know) and in team year to year performances, some francophone might opt for Montreal first when they become UFAs.

we'd then have a "language" advantage... the Lecavalier and St-Louis of this world would wanna come back home first and foremost...

it's not a stretch, it was like that in the 70's and even in the 90's with Turgeon, Roy, Damphousse, Bégin(!!!) all crying when they got traded... but meanwhile, Rejean Houle came in, crapped the bed and scrapped what was left of the Montreal Canadiens identity (I'm naming francophone cause my example is with francophone and the thread use that point negatively... I'm saying it could be positive... but you can also take guys like Schneider or Corson who were really glad to be traded BACK to the habs -> if the team becomes slightly more attractive, at some point, language will be neutral or even positive in some cases -> I know it's lame example, but for mathieu dandenault it was positive)

[Prime Minister Koivu]

partly right... but look at Phoenix, not competitive since they are in Phoenix, while they were starting to kick asses in Winnipeg.

ATL, FLA, TB

nobody cares over there... so the team sucks.

so if you mean habs move to hamilton... then, yeah, maybe partly right, the habs wouldn't care about the language of the coach...

but on the other hand, are you aware of all the shit the Leafs have to go through?!

the Rangers?!

The 3 biggest hockey markets (NY, TO, MTL) in the league all have their pros... and their cons... if you wanna list "language" in Montreal cons, do so. it's one on the list.

However, right now, I do not envy either one of the Rangers or the Leafs... so I'm thinking, maybe it sounds worse than it really is. Maybe "quand on se compare on se console" (if you compare to other situations, your situation is less saddening!)

Also, with some changes to the Media scrutinity (which might happen at some time in the future, we never know) and in team year to year performances, some francophone might opt for Montreal first when they become UFAs.

we'd then have a "language" advantage... the Lecavalier and St-Louis of this world would wanna come back home first and foremost...

it's not a stretch, it was like that in the 70's and even in the 90's with Turgeon, Roy, Damphousse, Bégin(!!!) all crying when they got traded... but meanwhile, Rejean Houle came in, crapped the bed and scrapped what was left of the Montreal Canadiens identity (I'm naming francophone cause my example is with francophone and the thread use that point negatively... I'm saying it could be positive... but you can also take guys like Schneider or Corson who were really glad to be traded BACK to the habs -> if the team becomes slightly more attractive, at some point, language will be neutral or even positive in some cases -> I know it's lame example, but for mathieu dandenault it was positive)

It is unbelievably difficult for me as an anglo to understand "what the big deal is" about this language issue. I have tried to understand this politically for years and still don't get it. I suppose I don't have a real reference point.

So the dream is to bring about a francophone culture in the Habs. A positive one that will encourage competition amongst native Quebec players to be good enough to play for the team?

[alexstream]

It is unbelievably difficult for me as an anglo to understand "what the big deal is" about this language issue. I have tried to understand this politically for years and still don't get it. I suppose I don't have a real reference point.

So the dream is to bring about a francophone culture in the Habs. A positive one that will encourage competition amongst native Quebec players to be good enough to play for the team?

well you got my example that a player would prefer to come back home, if the conditions are good, rather than play in strange land. (Souray signed for Edmonton, Ryan Smyth didn't want to quit edmonton, etc.)

that was a big point of the post : make the conditions good again, so that prime UFAs want to come back home... in the past, EVEN the home boy didn't want to come here.. that's a shame. so IF we can make us a prime destination for home boys again, that's a big thing... then, it might eventually become easier to attract other ufas... right now, Lecavalier prefers to sign a 11 years extension rather than risk going to MTL O_o

---

now, if you want a language explanation... that's a bit tougher. Qc is 6M francophone in a 330M sea of english speaking.

so there is a minority complex. there is an assimilation fear, there is a national pride... etc.

You have to look at Iceland, Finland, Switzterland to find sometheing nearly comparable... small countries having success on their own, with great natural resources and rich history. They develop something... something that makes them think that they are different and that they HAVE to be different. and they are. Not only the language, but the politics, religious views, the philosophy the economic policies, etc. What works in Ontario doesn't work in Qc. What works in Texas is outrageous in Qc.

that's really tough to explain to an outsider, but you can't think of Qc as you'd think of the Rest of Canada and even less as the rest of North America. Here, Democrats would be a right wing party.

It's really a particular place, but you can't understand that it's different from the outside. From the outside you see it as part of Canada, just another province, but the language is different. No, that's not that, that's way way way more than that. But the sensible cord and what unites them all is the language and their national identity. And part of their national identity has to do with the habs. seriously. :s

[KoZed]

It is unbelievably difficult for me as an anglo to understand "what the big deal is" about this language issue. I have tried to understand this politically for years and still don't get it. I suppose I don't have a real reference point.

So the dream is to bring about a francophone culture in the Habs. A positive one that will encourage competition amongst native Quebec players to be good enough to play for the team?

Ok. I'll try to explain because I do see lot of misunderstanding.

This is how it is. Not my personal views, not my personal opinion, but reality as it exists objectively:

When pro hockey started to develop in Montreal and around, teams were all owned by Anglos (Francos were kept away from business circles, so no Franco could hope to own a team) and the teams wouldnt even think of getting Franco players. So hockey developed that way, but soon enough it became clear that most of the best players around town were Francos toiling in amateur leagues. So when they started to re-think the organization of leagues, the Anglos decided that they'd need a new team and some notable Francos had been asking for one for a while.

So the Montreal Canadiens were put together explicitly to be a predominantly Francophone team. Just the name "Canadiens" back then was reserved to designate French-Canadians; not Canadians from coast-to-coast.

No Francophones, no Montreal Canadiens. Pure and simple.

For the decades that followed, the Habs were the only hope for any Franco to play in the NHL. They couldnt play anywhere else. Conn-Smythe was notorious for saying he would "never hire a damn frenchie to play for the Maple Leafs". So the team wasnt just any team; it was an entire people's sole and only hope to compete with the Anglos on an equal footing. They were held down everywhere else.

When Maurice Richard was suspended, the riot was that: Francos feeling that some Anglo bigshot was trying to hold them down once more. And when the team was reaping Cups after Cups, Francos felt that it was largely because they had the cream of the crop of hockey players: Francophone players.

That political/cultural/social meaning is ingrained in the team. Habs are part of the fabric of Quebecois' national identity. You can't mess with that. Just thinking about moving the team is heresy.

I've heard all the dismissal that comes from Anglos who either dont accept or understand that fact. At best they'll say it's 2009 and things have changed and etc. Sorry, but some things might have changed, Franco players, coaches and GMs might now be all over the league but it's still believed that they're held down because between an Anglo and a Franco of equal talent or competence, it's always the Anglo that'll be chosen. Good Ole Boys network and all. Only with the Habs can that perceived "anti-Franco bias" be counter-balanced and reversed. The Habs are still Montreal and Quebec's team; and because they are part of the Quebec national identity they still have to represent it. That's why something that can appear completely unnecessary and even crass to an Anglo fan will feel completely natural and justified to a Franco fan.

In the average Quebec Habs fan's psyche, the Habs are Francos, and Francos have earned the right to manage it as such, and not recognizing it by not having enough Franco players on the team or a Franco coach is to betray the Nation. "There is 29 other teams for Anglos, at least let us have our own."

It's not just any other sports franchise we're talking about here. When some Anglos dismiss it as being "more whining and insecurity from the Francos", they're only proving and strengthening their Franco counterparts' belief that they are misunderstood, disrespected, dismissed. Francos then go "See, the Anglos wont understand us, we can't trust them to be fair to us and let one of them become the coach of our team".

[Colin]

well you got my example that a player would prefer to come back home, if the conditions are good, rather than play in strange land. (Souray signed for Edmonton, Ryan Smyth didn't want to quit edmonton, etc.)

that was a big point of the post : make the conditions good again, so that prime UFAs want to come back home... in the past, EVEN the home boy didn't want to come here.. that's a shame. so IF we can make us a prime destination for home boys again, that's a big thing... then, it might eventually become easier to attract other ufas... right now, Lecavalier prefers to sign a 11 years extension rather than risk going to MTL O_o

---

now, if you want a language explanation... that's a bit tougher. Qc is 6M francophone in a 330M sea of english speaking.

so there is a minority complex. there is an assimilation fear, there is a national pride... etc.

You have to look at Iceland, Finland, Switzterland to find sometheing nearly comparable... small countries having success on their own, with great natural resources and rich history. They develop something... something that makes them think that they are different and that they HAVE to be different. and they are. Not only the language, but the politics, religious views, the philosophy the economic policies, etc. What works in Ontario doesn't work in Qc. What works in Texas is outrageous in Qc.

that's really tough to explain to an outsider, but you can't think of Qc as you'd think of the Rest of Canada and even less as the rest of North America. Here, Democrats would be a right wing party.

It's really a particular place, but you can't understand that it's different from the outside. From the outside you see it as part of Canada, just another province, but the language is different. No, that's not that, that's way way way more than that. But the sensible cord and what unites them all is the language and their national identity. And part of their national identity has to do with the habs. seriously. :s

From the first half of your post:

Absolutely management has to somehow make Montreal a "destination" city in which to play. I think Gainey has started that process. He's brought in high quality guys in the hockey management division, and he's working with Uncle Georges who, like him or hate him, tends to develop a good relationship with his players. Gainey has pushed the "Euro" aspect of Montreal, I believe, and that's why guys like Koivu and Kovalev want to stay. The fact that Gainey is an upstanding gentleman of the game is also a compelling reason to be in Montreal.

The negatives include the taxes, the language, and to a degree, the culture barriers. There's also perhaps the culture of losing on the ice since the Houle era that has to be completely eradicated, and there again, I think Bob has turned things around well.

Individually, I doubt any of these elements are enough to put anyone off coming here. However taken as a whole, this is a brutal environment in which to play, particularly when you consider the rabid and ill-informed elements of the fanbase that have that feeling of "entitlement" and the media which doesn't stop at hockey, but which makes ever-growing political issues out of the team.

If we want to get real change here in Montreal, I think one of the elements that needs to be targeted is the ridiculousness of the media. I feel those who go too far should be banned by the Habs as being political in a hockey arena. Freedom of the press? When does that go too far? It has in Montreal, that's for certain. I also feel Montreal would be infinitely better served if the Habs fans would take the collective "Quebecois" chip off their shoulder. Yes, different culture. Yes, different language. Yes, the majority don't understand. But if you want the Montreal Canadiens to survive, stop slamming the Quebec agenda down everyone's throats, because it scares people off.

There is politics and there is hockey. In Montreal, they are absolutely interrelated. However, too often the politics takes centre stage and trumps the hockey. If Montrealers really want a winning team, there are going to have to be points where they back off on certain subjects. I think it was the 86 Cup-winning club that had the most Americans in the league playing for them. This is not the pre-80's NHL, this is a 21st Century game where business must acknowledge a world environment and not just serve the Quebecois. That's not to say Montreal should not do what it can to cater to their home crowd as much as they can, but to be a successful business, they must cater to the North American market to a degree as well.

As to your second point, it is well taken and hopefully, for those who don't understand very well, a point that is well-considered. You did make what I believe to be one glaring error, however, by placing Switzerland in with the Scandinavian countries as an example. Switzerland has four official languages and even more cultures which manage to co-exist without talks of separation or frustration. That's a terrible example. In fact, the Swiss are the example I've always used when trying to tell people here how French and English Canadians should co-exist.

I personally believe that every Canadian should be given more education on the French culture so they can better respect something that is very unique. That includes kids on Vancouver Island. I believe that all Canadians should be given at least rudimentary language classes in BOTH languages. I believe Quebec IS a distinct society within Canada, but I also believe that Quebec and Canada make each other better and that separation would be a real shame for Canada and an outright disaster for Quebec.

But let's just stick to hockey.

Good points Stream.

[ForumGhost]

It is unbelievably difficult for me as an anglo to understand "what the big deal is" about this language issue. I have tried to understand this politically for years and still don't get it. I suppose I don't have a real reference point.

So the dream is to bring about a francophone culture in the Habs. A positive one that will encourage competition amongst native Quebec players to be good enough to play for the team?

Here is the short, concise version as I see it:

For a long ass time, the french were repressed by the english, in hockey and in politics. Then some guy named Maurice Richard came around and stood up for the french. Cultural revolution followed, etc. etc. Now the french are really pissy towards the english because of all the stuff happened in the past and get really defensive about 'protecting their culture'. Some of them are really chill, but for a lot of them this means making the lives of anglos like myself as miserable as possible. Basically, a lot of them (not all but a lot) want the english out of Quebec. They also see the Habs as belonging to this french culture. That's why they get all hot and bothered for someone like Lapierre and hate the likes of Koivu, an outsider leading their team.

EDIT: very well said by Colin.

Edited May 7, 2009 by ForumGhost

[KoZed]

If we want to get real change here in Montreal, I think one of the elements that needs to be targeted is the ridiculousness of the media. I feel those who go too far should be banned by the Habs as being political in a hockey arena. Freedom of the press? When does that go too far? It has in Montreal, that's for certain. I also feel Montreal would be infinitely better served if the Habs fans would take the collective "Quebecois" chip off their shoulder. Yes, different culture. Yes, different language. Yes, the majority don't understand. But if you want the Montreal Canadiens to survive, stop slamming the Quebec agenda down everyone's throats, because it scares people off.

I agree that medias needs to have some "conscience's exam", however calling it "Ridiculousness" right from from the get-go won't help.

Like it or not, the medias' basis of judgment on the team's performance as a whole is pretty homogeneous with the fans'. I'd say right now there's 4 generations of Habs fans.

My great-uncle is the prototypical 1st generation: he witnessed the 40's and 50's Habs, the Maurice Richard phenomenon, the sheer will it took for Franco players like the Rocket, Plante, Geoffrion and etc. to break the glass ceiling and earn some respect when crowds and players around the League we calling them "ing Frogs" all the time. For that 1st generation, seeing "some guy from Siberia" like Kostitsyn take away a spot from some heart & soul local boy and then drag his feet all season long, it's an absolute non-sense. Interestingly enough, that generation dont care as much about language as it does about roots. That's the generation that was used to work in shops where all the bosses and foremen would speak English. They grew up with some sense that English was "the masters language" and sort of have accepted that coaches or GMs are Anglos. But on the ice they want local boys and they have an ingrained distaste for all foreigners. My great-uncle still watches games with a passion unrivaled by any kid you'd ever meet. He's almost 80 and he braces himself with every hit, jumps up with every shot, yells with every missed ref call. That's the generation that has Habs blood in their veins, that's the generation that made the Habs.

My dad is the 2nd generation: 60's and 70's. That's the baby-boomers generation, that's the political generation, that's the Révolution Tranquille generation, that's the generation that fought for equal rights for Francos in everything and now have a sense of entitlement. That's the Réjean Tremblay, Bertrand Raymond, Guy Lafleur generation. That's also the generation that have more of a sense of "beauty" for the game. If the 1st generation loved the crash & bang aggressive bulldozer style of Maurice Richard; that 2nd generation loved the grace of Beliveau and the style of Lafleur. For them winning wasnt enough, it had to be done in style. That's the generation that abandoned the Habs and hockey in general in the late 80's when the trap, hooking and expansion diluted the product and made the game ugly. That generation isnt Hell-bent on having all-Francos on the team. They will often prefer a free-spirit but beautiful-to-watch talent like Kovalev over a grinding local kid who has to muck for his goals like Lapierre. However that's the generation who fought in the 60's and 70's so the Franco couldnt have access to power seats, so they are well-aware of the importance of the coaching, GM and president positions. To see those positions go to Anglos is a symbol of national defeat, as if things were going backwards. My dad hates watching dump & chase, doesnt think more of Latendresse or Lapierre than he does of Kostitsyn or Plekanec. For him they are equally untalented players who dont know what to do with a puck. For him Kovalev is another Lafleur, regardless of his language. But he would sack Gainey and Timmins tomorrow for not doing a better job at drafting and developing skilled local talents.

I'm the 3rd generation: 80's and 90's. I saw the game go from 90% Canadian players and high-scoring to about 60% Canadian and low-scoring, I saw it go from 21 teams to 30. I saw the Habs go from a perennial contender to a team struggling to make the playoffs. I saw the Habs when all the top talents of the 70's where gone but what was left was the spirit and philosophy that made that team great. My generation accepts the fact the game has gone global and that the talent pool is much more international and that because of the parity the edge between a winner and a loser is slimmer. So we're more inclined to look around the league at what works, look around the world, look at prospects because they're now all much more vital than before. But at the same time my generation remembers that the players who gave the Habs an edge were local players who brought the Q factor: Roy, Carbo, Richer, Lemieux, Desjardins, Damphousse. My generation remembers that the local flavor gave the team that unique dimension that kept it amongst the top teams and brought 2 Cups; and we saw the Habs plummet as fewer and fewer local players were made part of the team's equation. We're thorned because we saw two completely different eras and different philosophies and we're trying to find the best of both.

The 4th generation is the 2000's. They've never seen the Habs on top, never seen any great local stars except Theodore 1 season. They can't really figure out why or how a local player could bring some intangibles to the team and make it better.

Now that I've just brushed that fandom landscape, let's get back to the medias: those 4 generations is the background the medias are representing. Red Fisher is 1st generation. Tremblay and Raymond are 2nd generation. Brunet & Gagnon 3rd generation, etc. You wont see 1st and 2nd generation journalists talk about the Habs prospects the way Mathias Brunet does, or about the objective little technical details of the game and the league the way Francois Gagnon does. To put all medias under this "ridiculous" umbrella is shortsighted and restrictive. You might hate the medias that make things political; but at the same time they are representing fans from a generation who hold the Habs to a certain standard of quality that HAS to persist. You can have all the ceremonies in the world, it wont keep the past alive as much as a certain degree of expectations that is voiced by some of the medias and reflects a certain segment of the fans and language is just an intrinsic part of it. The "politics" of the medias isnt just linguistic; it's also about the quality of the product on the ice and the results. Language just happens to be a part of the equation because it was a positive factor in the past. Habs won 24 Cups mostly on the back of Franco players, not just stars but also average players who gave more to the team because they were local. Why try to deviate or make abstraction of a recipe that worked so well? That's what the medias are expressing. Because they know they are backed up in their views by the majority of fans.

Compare it to the Expos. Medias never complained, fans never complained. Language was never an issue because it has never been part of the team's winning formula and there wasnt really any Franco options. But it's also the same reason why the population as a whole always felt somewhat disconnected from the team and when the 94 team was dismantled, they just turned their back on them without ever looking back. It wasnt their team.

[Trizzak]

Just a question, but with every french canadian player that doesn't sign in Montreal, year after year, is the cultural importance of Montreal dying a bit with every rejection it gets from it's own sons?

[alexstream]

Just a question, but with every french canadian player that doesn't sign in Montreal, year after year, is the cultural importance of Montreal dying a bit with every rejection it gets from it's own sons?

no, that player however becomes a national traitor. (Brière)

nearly a joke. nearly.

Here is the short, concise version as I see it:

For a long ass time, the french were repressed by the english, in hockey and in politics. Then some guy named Maurice Richard came around and stood up for the french. Cultural revolution followed, etc. etc. Now the french are really pissy towards the english because of all the stuff happened in the past and get really defensive about 'protecting their culture'. Some of them are really chill, but for a lot of them this means making the lives of anglos like myself as miserable as possible. Basically, a lot of them (not all but a lot) want the english out of Quebec. They also see the Habs as belonging to this french culture. That's why they get all hot and bothered for someone like Lapierre and hate the likes of Koivu, an outsider leading their team.

EDIT: very well said by Colin.

lol, to the extreme... but kinda, yeah, in some circumstances, with some individuals.

e.g. in Hochelaga Maisonneuve on the day of "La Saint-Jean Baptiste"

[JoeLassister]

I agree that medias needs to have some "conscience's exam", however calling it "Ridiculousness" right from from the get-go won't help.

Like it or not, the medias' basis of judgment on the team's performance as a whole is pretty homogeneous with the fans'. I'd say right now there's 4 generations of Habs fans.

My great-uncle is the prototypical 1st generation: he witnessed the 40's and 50's Habs, the Maurice Richard phenomenon, the sheer will it took for Franco players like the Rocket, Plante, Geoffrion and etc. to break the glass ceiling and earn some respect when crowds and players around the League we calling them "######ing Frogs" all the time. For that 1st generation, seeing "some guy from Siberia" like Kostitsyn take away a spot from some heart & soul local boy and then drag his feet all season long, it's an absolute non-sense. Interestingly enough, that generation dont care as much about language as it does about roots. That's the generation that was used to work in shops where all the bosses and foremen would speak English. They grew up with some sense that English was "the masters language" and sort of have accepted that coaches or GMs are Anglos. But on the ice they want local boys and they have an ingrained distaste for all foreigners. My great-uncle still watches games with a passion unrivaled by any kid you'd ever meet. He's almost 80 and he braces himself with every hit, jumps up with every shot, yells with every missed ref call. That's the generation that has Habs blood in their veins, that's the generation that made the Habs.

My dad is the 2nd generation: 60's and 70's. That's the baby-boomers generation, that's the political generation, that's the Révolution Tranquille generation, that's the generation that fought for equal rights for Francos in everything and now have a sense of entitlement. That's the Réjean Tremblay, Bertrand Raymond, Guy Lafleur generation. That's also the generation that have more of a sense of "beauty" for the game. If the 1st generation loved the crash & bang aggressive bulldozer style of Maurice Richard; that 2nd generation loved the grace of Beliveau and the style of Lafleur. For them winning wasnt enough, it had to be done in style. That's the generation that abandoned the Habs and hockey in general in the late 80's when the trap, hooking and expansion diluted the product and made the game ugly. That generation isnt Hell-bent on having all-Francos on the team. They will often prefer a free-spirit but beautiful-to-watch talent like Kovalev over a grinding local kid who has to muck for his goals like Lapierre. However that's the generation who fought in the 60's and 70's so the Franco couldnt have access to power seats, so they are well-aware of the importance of the coaching, GM and president positions. To see those positions go to Anglos is a symbol of national defeat, as if things were going backwards. My dad hates watching dump & chase, doesnt think more of Latendresse or Lapierre than he does of Kostitsyn or Plekanec. For him they are equally untalented players who dont know what to do with a puck. For him Kovalev is another Lafleur, regardless of his language. But he would sack Gainey and Timmins tomorrow for not doing a better job at drafting and developing skilled local talents.

I'm the 3rd generation: 80's and 90's. I saw the game go from 90% Canadian players and high-scoring to about 60% Canadian and low-scoring, I saw it go from 21 teams to 30. I saw the Habs go from a perennial contender to a team struggling to make the playoffs. I saw the Habs when all the top talents of the 70's where gone but what was left was the spirit and philosophy that made that team great. My generation accepts the fact the game has gone global and that the talent pool is much more international and that because of the parity the edge between a winner and a loser is slimmer. So we're more inclined to look around the league at what works, look around the world, look at prospects because they're now all much more vital than before. But at the same time my generation remembers that the players who gave the Habs an edge were local players who brought the Q factor: Roy, Carbo, Richer, Lemieux, Desjardins, Damphousse. My generation remembers that the local flavor gave the team that unique dimension that kept it amongst the top teams and brought 2 Cups; and we saw the Habs plummet as fewer and fewer local players were made part of the team's equation. We're thorned because we saw two completely different eras and different philosophies and we're trying to find the best of both.

The 4th generation is the 2000's. They've never seen the Habs on top, never seen any great local stars except Theodore 1 season. They can't really figure out why or how a local player could bring some intangibles to the team and make it better.

Now that I've just brushed that fandom landscape, let's get back to the medias: those 4 generations is the background the medias are representing. Red Fisher is 1st generation. Tremblay and Raymond are 2nd generation. Brunet & Gagnon 3rd generation, etc. You wont see 1st and 2nd generation journalists talk about the Habs prospects the way Mathias Brunet does, or about the objective little technical details of the game and the league the way Francois Gagnon does. To put all medias under this "ridiculous" umbrella is shortsighted and restrictive. You might hate the medias that make things political; but at the same time they are representing fans from a generation who hold the Habs to a certain standard of quality that HAS to persist. You can have all the ceremonies in the world, it wont keep the past alive as much as a certain degree of expectations that is voiced by some of the medias and reflects a certain segment of the fans and language is just an intrinsic part of it. The "politics" of the medias isnt just linguistic; it's also about the quality of the product on the ice and the results. Language just happens to be a part of the equation because it was a positive factor in the past. Habs won 24 Cups mostly on the back of Franco players, not just stars but also average players who gave more to the team because they were local. Why try to deviate or make abstraction of a recipe that worked so well? That's what the medias are expressing. Because they know they are backed up in their views by the majority of fans.

Compare it to the Expos. Medias never complained, fans never complained. Language was never an issue because it has never been part of the team's winning formula and there wasnt really any Franco options. But it's also the same reason why the population as a whole always felt somewhat disconnected from the team and when the 94 team was dismantled, they just turned their back on them without ever looking back. It wasnt their team.

Post of the year !

[BCHabnut]

Kozed, I loved you generational post. It's amazing how close it is to my reality. My grandfather had to listen to games on the radio, and I don't know much about him, but you description of the 2nd generation is spot on. I remember Lafleur in 1979, but that's about it. He is my favourite player because he was my childhood idol. My dad abandoned hockey completely in 1984. He took some minor interest in 1986, but it wasn't the same as his passion in the 70s. That trap team was not his gig. He was such a Habs fan, that when they quit playing the way he wanted them to, he quit watching hockey completely.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

I get the connection of francos using the Habs as a political vessel. I understand the why this is such an issue now. It would be very helpful if Quebecors could find another vessel though

Where did the oppression start though and why? I read the book "The Rocket" and I found it incredibly irritating. The book was about the poor downtrodden french people and their saviour. Canada sending Quebec born people to war seemed to be a particular issue - why? Canadians from across the country fought.

Hating someone because of their language is as dumb as hating people because of the colour of their skin. That goes both ways.

Quebec is certainly distinct, so is Calgary and Newfoundland, etc...

I do understand as this relates to the Habs but not on the national political level.

[alexstream]

I get the connection of francos using the Habs as a political vessel. I understand the why this is such an issue now. It would be very helpful if Quebecors could find another vessel though

Where did the oppression start though and why? I read the book "The Rocket" and I found it incredibly irritating. The book was about the poor downtrodden french people and their saviour. Canada sending Quebec born people to war seemed to be a particular issue - why? Canadians from across the country fought.

Hating someone because of their language is as dumb as hating people because of the colour of their skin. That goes both ways.

Quebec is certainly distinct, so is Calgary and Newfoundland, etc...

I do understand as this relates to the Habs but not on the national political level.

LOL ok ok.. you really need to come here... spend some vacation in Montreal (not just the west-island. go in le plateau and old montreal too) Qc city then go to Saguenay, Gaspé and Rimouski.

That'll be really informative. I'm not saying you're not trying to understand... but some people just need to "live it" to understand it.

The Rocket shouldn't be irritating at all. It should be inspiring. So you need to come here, talk with the people, travel a bit, enjoy the country land and the people.

[ForumGhost]

The Rocket was a great book but there were some biases... As perfect as him being the savior of the french people who liberates them from the evil clutches of the english sounds, things are rarely that black and white. There are 2 sides to every coin.

[alexstream]

The Rocket was a great book but there were some biases... As perfect as him being the savior of the french people who liberates them from the evil clutches of the english sounds, things are rarely that black and white. There are 2 sides to every coin.

True.

As there is in Braveheart.

Yet no one found Braveheart irritating. (I'm not comparing the scale of the events, braveheart being Millions of time bigger)

[Colin]

True.

As there is in Braveheart.

Yet no one found Braveheart irritating. (I'm not comparing the scale of the events, braveheart being Millions of time bigger)

I found it irritating.

[tokyohabs]

LOL ok ok.. you really need to come here... spend some vacation in Montreal (not just the west-island. go in le plateau and old montreal too) Qc city then go to Saguenay, Gaspé and Rimouski.

That'll be really informative. I'm not saying you're not trying to understand... but some people just need to "live it" to understand it.

The Rocket shouldn't be irritating at all. It should be inspiring. So you need to come here, talk with the people, travel a bit, enjoy the country land and the people.

?????!!!!!

Who the f*ck vacations in the West Island???

[BTH]

Braveheart offended every historian on the planet.

?????!!!!!

Who the f*ck vacations in the West Island???

My house is the new hot spot of Quebec. You'd be surprised how many tourists are dropping by these days.

Prime Minister Koivu, Calgary might be unique but it's obviously incomparable to Quebec and a huge part of that IS the language. And it isn't just a bilingual province where everyone gets along and speaks what they're comfortable with... there is loads of hostility around here over language. Try speaking to someone who works at the metro! Speak in English and they'll be disgusted with you for showing such disrespect; speak in French and they'll be disgusted at how you could have grown up in Quebec and still have such a disgraceful Anglo accent. If an Anglo fails a driving test, they'll blame it on the instructor not liking them because they spoke in English. Etc...

Why does this matter when it comes to hockey? Because hockey is HUGE in Quebec. Far more important than it could ever be in Calgary or Vancouver or Toronto. This is for all the reasons Koz and Stream have said. But whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that it isn't entertainment, it's culture. Guy Carbonneau was covered more heavily by the media than anyone else in Quebec, including politicians, athletes, and celebrities (like Celine Dion lol). I like your comparison of language to race. Isn't it telling that the Americans could accept a black president but Quebec can't except an Anglophone head coach? Hockey is HUGE here. Or, more accurately, Les Canadiens de Montréal are huge.

[Habsfan]

?????!!!!!

Who the f*ck vacations in the West Island???

Good question!

[Habsfan]

Great post by KoZed!

I'm 3rd genereation as well. Even though i was born in 76, my first memories of the Habs was in the early 80's. I never saw Lafleur score 50 goals, even though i remember him in his final years as a habs!

I do find reporters or columnists like Rejean Tremblay and Bertrand Raymond annoying. Especially tremblay, everything has to do with language...at least guys like Brunet and Gagnon concentrate on the Hockey aspect of the game!

Not to say that i wouldn't like to see more franco's on the team, but if the habs only had two franco's and won the cup, i'd be very happy...much more happy then if they had 12 franco's and didn't make the playoffs!

Edited May 8, 2009 by Habsfan