GDT Nov. 27, Habs vs Sabres, 7 PM

[dlbalr]

Well, it certainly wasn't their best of games but it was a game they needed to get and they got it.

A quick stat of the night, Bournival tied for the team lead in shots despite playing the lowest ice time of any Hab (nearly two minutes less than any other forward).

[DON]

That's why Parros should be in the game. He's going to play against Boston/TOR, he can't come in cold and face two goon squad.

Come on.......Ogie Oglethorpe don't need no warm up.

[JMMR]

Here we go Pens 5 on 3.

[DON]

Anyone staying on here and watching the Leafs Pens?

Yep like Chucky on the Markov goal. (Chucky's goal Markovs shot)

No, the Wings beating Bruins 4-0 in 3rd period is worth watching, oh I mean 5-0, sweeeeet!

[JMMR]

The Real Deal James Neal!!!!!

Malkin is a dummy.

[Neech]

Sort of a middling effort but good to get 2 points. We were solid in the third. Overall pretty boring hockey but at least we're getting the win, unlike a couple weeks ago.

It was weird, the Desharnais-Patches-Gallagher powerplay first wave was really bothering me until they scored each goal. They seemed really static and confined to the perimeter, but then they potted a couple. Still would like to see Galchenyuk get more of a shot - maybe with Pleks (cause why not).

Subban's play that led to the Sabres' goal is precisely the sort of thing he has to cut down on to get to the next level (and incidentally what the Team Canada brain trust have reason to be worried about). He could have made a simple play along the boards, but tried to use his athleticism to deke out his marker, with absolutely NOTHING to gain from it deep in his own zone. Most of the time he can get away with that decision, but he could stand to be smarter about it sometimes.

[habscout]

Here's a better update: Wings over Bruins 6-1.

Here we go Pens 5 on 3.

[Neech]

Haha, no shots for the Leafs after the second period. Malkin and Crosby bury the shootout.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Buffalo played like a quintessential crap team. I remember the recipe well from the Habs of the late 1990s: come out hopeful, and play the other team more or less even for a while...fail to score on a couple of decent chances...then fall behind. Resigned to your inevitable defeat and you revert to long stretches of lacklustre play. You make a couple of "pushes" as the game evolves...maybe score to keep it close...then the other team eventually pulls away. You lose. And no one ever really believed you were going to win.

Dryden describes this dynamic wonderfully in The Game, as the Habs played against the then-hapless Wings.

I thought Myers had some moments, though. And of course Stafford made a fool of Subban. Yeesh.

My favourite parts of the game was the crushing hit Murray put on a guy, only to have it surpassed by Emelin's absolute demolition of Moulson. Whoa. And Murray deserves major kudos for having the guts to take on Scott. He started out game, but by the end was clearly just in survival mode. Dodgy defenceman, but what a warrior.

It's one of those wins that you need to put in the bank despite the total lack of interest in the team you're playing. They did that, and it was a businesslike win - the sort you expect from a good team.

[PMAC]

Buffalo played like a quintessential crap team. I remember the recipe well from the Habs of the late 1990s: come out hopeful, and play the other team more or less even for a while...fail to score on a couple of decent chances...then fall behind. Resigned to your inevitable defeat and you revert to long stretches of lacklustre play. You make a couple of "pushes" as the game evolves...maybe score to keep it close...then the other team eventually pulls away. You lose. And no one ever really believed you were going to win.

Dryden describes this dynamic wonderfully in The Game, as the Habs played against the then-hapless Wings.

I thought Myers had some moments, though. And of course Stafford made a fool of Subban. Yeesh.

My favourite parts of the game was the crushing hit Murray put on a guy, only to have it surpassed by Emelin's absolute demolition of Moulson. Whoa. And Murray deserves major kudos for having the guts to take on Scott. He started out game, but by the end was clearly just in survival mode. Dodgy defenceman, but what a warrior.

It's one of those wins that you need to put in the bank despite the total lack of interest in the team you're playing. They did that, and it was a businesslike win - the sort you expect from a good team.

Actually, Murray played a decent game. He is steady with the puck but has to be careful not to get beat due to his lack of speed. I know i am in the minority, but I think he will be better as the season progresses as he missed almost all of training camp with an injury. A player like him has to be positioned perfectly. To me he is Gill with a warrior mentality and as you have said before that was one element missing from our D. It is nice to see some of our D putting the fear of God into opposing forwards...and talking on Scott risking to stand up for his team mates

[Guest Stogey24]

Buffalo played like a quintessential crap team. I remember the recipe well from the Habs of the late 1990s: come out hopeful, and play the other team more or less even for a while...fail to score on a couple of decent chances...then fall behind. Resigned to your inevitable defeat and you revert to long stretches of lacklustre play. You make a couple of "pushes" as the game evolves...maybe score to keep it close...then the other team eventually pulls away. You lose. And no one ever really believed you were going to win.

Dryden describes this dynamic wonderfully in The Game, as the Habs played against the then-hapless Wings.

I thought Myers had some moments, though. And of course Stafford made a fool of Subban. Yeesh.

My favourite parts of the game was the crushing hit Murray put on a guy, only to have it surpassed by Emelin's absolute demolition of Moulson. Whoa. And Murray deserves major kudos for having the guts to take on Scott. He started out game, but by the end was clearly just in survival mode. Dodgy defenceman, but what a warrior.

It's one of those wins that you need to put in the bank despite the total lack of interest in the team you're playing. They did that, and it was a businesslike win - the sort you expect from a good team.

Survival mode? He played a good game and stood and threw with a guy who is there for one reason...to fight. He brings more to the table than Bouillon and I honestly beilieve he should be a regular in the line up.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Agreed on Murray. He isn't as defensively bad as I saw him in San Jose.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Bouillon should sit unless there's a back to back. He has to, if Murray gets out of shape and there's an injury we're toast.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I meant he was in 'survival' mode in the fight with Scott. He started out throwing punches but about 2/3 of the way through you could see him hoping the linesmen would step in.

Not sure how people thought I was slagging Murray. I'm a Murray defender and definitely prefer him to Bouillon, because I want teams thinking twice about going into the Habs' zone and believe in the value of hard-hitting, crushing defencemen even if they have occasional breakdowns - especially on a team like ours that is not known for physical robustness. Bouillon is more multi-dimensional but also mediocre in every aspect of the game. I also agree that Murray has to be given some time to round into form. That said, he's not exactly Mr. Impeccable in his own end. A limited player with impressive strengths in specialized areas.

[Guest Stogey24]

I meant he was in 'survival' mode in the fight with Scott. He started out throwing punches but about 2/3 of the way through you could see him hoping the linesmen would step in.

Not sure how people thought I was slagging Murray. I'm a Murray defender and definitely prefer him to Bouillon, because I want teams thinking twice about going into the Habs' zone and believe in the value of hard-hitting, crushing defencemen even if they have occasional breakdowns - especially on a team like ours that is not known for physical robustness. Bouillon is more multi-dimensional but also mediocre in every aspect of the game. I also agree that Murray has to be given some time to round into form. That said, he's not exactly Mr. Impeccable in his own end. A limited player with impressive strengths in specialized areas.

I misread your post. Yeah, I think he was at the end of his shift too.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Doug Murray makes occasional mistakes but that's because he's a bottom six. Muzzin and Greene on LA are bottom six guys. They play like it too. The Kings don't rely on them for anything other than a breather for Doughty and Voynov.

Chicago was in the perfect situation to have five defencemen that could play top six minutes. Roszival this year isn't playing like he did last year.

How Montreal is built with Subban/Markov/Emelin/Gorges, the hope is that Tinordi and Beaulieu can eventually play NHL standard and we're looking stronger than anyone on the blueline. Doesn't seem to be this season. That way we can stop giving big minutes to guys like Bouillon. Murray is a good stop gap.

[Guest Stogey24]

Doug Murray makes occasional mistakes but that's because he's a bottom six. Muzzin and Greene on LA are bottom six guys. They play like it too. The Kings don't rely on them for anything other than a breather for Doughty and Voynov.

Chicago was in the perfect situation to have five defencemen that could play top six minutes. Roszival this year isn't playing like he did last year.

How Montreal is built with Subban/Markov/Emelin/Gorges, the hope is that Tinordi and Beaulieu can eventually play NHL standard and we're looking stronger than anyone on the blueline. Doesn't seem to be this season. That way we can stop giving big minutes to guys like Bouillon. Murray is a good stop gap.

Muzzin is better than a bottom 6 guy. Him and Doughty make top pair for L.A.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Muzzin without Doughty would be bottom six. I watch him turn the puck over in his own zone a good four or five times a game when I watch LA.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Doug Murray makes occasional mistakes but that's because he's a bottom six. Muzzin and Greene on LA are bottom six guys. They play like it too. The Kings don't rely on them for anything other than a breather for Doughty and Voynov.

Chicago was in the perfect situation to have five defencemen that could play top six minutes. Roszival this year isn't playing like he did last year.

How Montreal is built with Subban/Markov/Emelin/Gorges, the hope is that Tinordi and Beaulieu can eventually play NHL standard and we're looking stronger than anyone on the blueline. Doesn't seem to be this season. That way we can stop giving big minutes to guys like Bouillon. Murray is a good stop gap.

Of course, this model only leads to Cup contention if Markov can remain an elite defencemen over the next few years.

If you replace Murray and Bouillon with Beaulieu and Tinrodi as bottom-pairing guys, that isn't self-evidently an improvement, until those rookies acquire some experience and evolve into something better than that. That could take a while: one season, maybe two. So Markov has to stay elite for, say, 3-4 seasons if this is to amount to anything other than shuffling the deck chairs around (barring, of course, our signing an all-star UFA to replace a declining Markov).

This bothers me a bit. It seems like too narrow a window given that the clock is ticking on Markov's career. If the Habs were to go out and sign a Dan Hamhuis-type in the summer, that'd make a gigantic difference to the likelihood of our vaulting into true contention going forward.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Of course, this model only leads to Cup contention if Markov can remain an elite defencemen over the next few years.

If you replace Murray and Bouillon with Beaulieu and Tinrodi as bottom-pairing guys, that isn't self-evidently an improvement, until those rookies acquire some experience and evolve into something better than that. That could take a while: one season, maybe two. So Markov has to stay elite for, say, 3-4 seasons if this is to amount to anything other than shuffling the deck chairs around (barring, of course, our signing an all-star UFA to replace a declining Markov).

This bothers me a bit. It seems like too narrow a window given that the clock is ticking on Markov's career. If the Habs were to go out and sign a Dan Hamhuis-type in the summer, that'd make a gigantic difference to the likelihood of our vaulting into true contention going forward.

There's only so much money to go around. Subban is going to double his salary while Emelin's new deal and whatever Eller gets will swallow up the savings from Gionta walking. Montreal needs to move some bodies before they consider adding $3-4M onto the cap again on the blueline. Once Berglund, Sobotkoa, Steen and Tarasenko get new contracts, St. Louis won't be spending 40% of their cap on D anymore.

I really don't think the kids are that far away. I think it's more Therrien being trigger shy and not setting them up for success. It was weird that we didn't see Pateryn at all when he was doing best in the AHL at one point.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

There's only so much money to go around. Subban is going to double his salary while Emelin's new deal and whatever Eller gets will swallow up the savings from Gionta walking. Montreal needs to move some bodies before they consider adding $3-4M onto the cap again on the blueline. Once Berglund, Sobotkoa, Steen and Tarasenko get new contracts, St. Louis won't be spending 40% of their cap on D anymore.

I really don't think the kids are that far away. I think it's more Therrien being trigger shy and not setting them up for success. It was weird that we didn't see Pateryn at all when he was doing best in the AHL at one point.

I hope you're right, but I doubt it. Subban and Gallagher stepped right in as a fully-developed impact players, but that hardly ever happens. Look how long it's taken Eller, or how Galchenyuk is still nowhere near his fully potential, and then factor in that defence is a tougher position than forward, and you quickly see that caution is warranted. Two years is a reasonable timeline for Tinordi and/or Beaulieu to become more than bottom-pairing defenders.

The rebuild cannot mean simply that we replace current core parts with comparable 'new' core parts, e.g., replace Markov with an emerging all-star Beaulieu in three years. We need to ADD parts that we don't currently have, most notably an additional impact top-6 forward and a top-4 defencemen. This is why I keep expressing concern about our prospects of truly becoming contenders in the medium term...at present I just don't see these added elements being added within Markov's closing career window. (Heck, if MB sees the same thing I do, that would explain the rumours that he is exploring a "major" move - reconstruct the core to enhance the likelihood of having those missing pieces within that window).

[DON]

There's only so much money to go around. Subban is going to double his salary while Emelin's new deal and whatever Eller gets will swallow up the savings from Gionta walking. Montreal needs to move some bodies before they consider adding $3-4M onto the cap again on the blueline. Once Berglund, Sobotkoa, Steen and Tarasenko get new contracts, St. Louis won't be spending 40% of their cap on D anymore.

I really don't think the kids are that far away. I think it's more Therrien being trigger shy and not setting them up for success. It was weird that we didn't see Pateryn at all when he was doing best in the AHL at one point.

Martin Lapointe; said Pateryn's main issue is consistency and has been told by management to play a certain way (more emotion/physicality) and "protect the house" and if he dosent he will find himself exactly where he is right now.

Lapointe has similar comments on Leblanc, but said his main issue was attitude. He needs to be more like Bournival and create opportunities for himself and play more physical/aggressive.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

We added a top four defenceman. Have you seen how good we look now with Emelin back? Come on, Cucumber. We look damn good in our zone now.

I'm pretty happy going forward with Markov/Subban/Gorges/Emelin/Murray/Diaz and would only consider shipping Diaz away for picks and maybe picking up a rental defenceman that's going to provide better scoring and defence than he can. Maybe like bringing Stephane Robidas home.

As for the forwards, there's chemistry problems. Eventually they are going to settle into their roles and it'll look a lot better. So far it seems any line with Gallagher looks good. Gotta make sure there's other lines going and stop trying this "every line is a second line" thing.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

We added a top four defenceman. Have you seen how good we look now with Emelin back? Come on, Cucumber. We look damn good in our zone now.

I'm pretty happy going forward with Markov/Subban/Gorges/Emelin/Murray/Diaz and would only consider shipping Diaz away for picks and maybe picking up a rental defenceman that's going to provide better scoring and defence than he can. Maybe like bringing Stephane Robidas home.

As for the forwards, there's chemistry problems. Eventually they are going to settle into their roles and it'll look a lot better. So far it seems any line with Gallagher looks good. Gotta make sure there's other lines going and stop trying this "every line is a second line" thing.

Yes, Emelin makes a gigantic difference. But are we clear-cut contenders? Are we up there with Boston, Chicago, LA, St Louis, San Jose, maybe Pittsburgh? The answer is no. Maybe adding one more top-6 forward is all we need. I don't think so. Another top-4 defenceman would move Gorges to his appropriate #5 slot and then we begin to look damned intimidating.

That's the goal, remember: not to become a 'good team' with an 'outside chance,' but to enter that inner sanctum of the league's most feared and respected teams. What I keep trying to do is peer ahead 2-3 years and see whether we will become this. I'm by no means certain, but I see grounds for doubting it, mostly due to Markov's closing window.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Uhh we were better than Pittsburgh before even Markov returned...

I don't believe we're as good as St.Louis (who I feel has the best D pairs since the early 00s Devils) but I don't see us being as far off as you do. We're one of the top teams in the league for team goals against and that ain't all Price and Budaj and it ain't some magical Leaf luck.

Might be time to admit we're a little harder on our D than they deserve.