3/3 Montreal at Los Angeles

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Kings coach confirms what the Advanced Stats watchers already knew... the best defense doesn't come from a guy who blocks lots of shots and throws lots of hits (aka Murray). It comes through puck possession.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/10/kings-coach-sutter-says-teams-dont-defend-they-possess-the-puck/

Hmm...so the best defense is a good offense? Haven't heard that before, pretty sure my middle school soccer coach repeated that, and we went 1-9.

Any thoughts on the Panthers playing a possesion style, ie not dumping the puck in, and losing the Bruins game yesterday due to turnovers at the blue line?

How about a better scion for the movement than Douglas Murray? I think everyone knows he's a below average number 6. There has to be someone better to use as an example.

[Commandant]

My thoughts on the Panthers turning the puck over at the blue line is that they didn't play a very good possession game. A team playing a possession game successfully wouldn't be turning the puck over all that often, especially in poor places on the ice.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

My thoughts on the Panthers turning the puck over at the blue line is that they didn't play a very good possession game. A team playing a possession game successfully wouldn't be turning the puck over all that often, especially in poor places on the ice.

That's my point, most teams don't have the talent or the centers to play a possession game, so we see dump and chase. Still the best system for 20 teams in the league

[Commandant]

That's my point, most teams don't have the talent or the centers to play a possession game, so we see dump and chase. Still the best system for 20 teams in the league

Thats fine, but it doesn't change my point that a guy who is an absolute black hole when it comes to possession, shouldn't play more than a guy who would improve the possession game.

If you have players to play a more possession based approach.. use them.

Also dump and chase, can be a possession game, if you are a strong forechecking team... which describes LA, Boston, St. Louis.... etc.... Using size to play the forecheck and dumping, chasing and retrieving to generate offence is still effective. It requires speed though... and those teams couple the size with speed, and thats why it works.

Whats becoming less and less effective is a player who can't move the puck at all... who can't play a heavy dump and chase game in the offensive zone, and his only contribution is to block shots, throw hits and chip it off the glass. All of your defencemen need to be able to skate with the puck a little bit, and make an outlet pass. Thats the difference between a Gorges and a Murray. Gorges isn't gonna score 20 points, but he can help the possession game, where Murray just can't.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

The problem is thinking one works and the other doesn't. That thinking will get you nowhere other than an Internet discussion meant to frustrate.

You need more than just puck possession. I shake my head every time I hear about how "on a long enough timeline quality shots don't matter" I'm sorry but I've watched the possession game of teams like Florida, Calgary and Edmonton. They can sure carry that puck but they don't know what to do with it after. They also have a hell of a time getting the puck back because nobody plays positional defence, nobody pressures the offensive player to give up the puck (i.e. giveaways) and nobody knows how to close up lanes.

You also need more than defence. You can't just collapse, hit and block shots. You're going to exhaust your players and you're going to exhaust your goalie. You're not going to always close those lanes and the more time you spend chasing the puck, the less time you spend trying to win the game. You're merely trying to survive.

Douglas Murray has good qualities but his limited play with the puck makes him extravagantly expendable due to the development of Jarred Tinordi.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Thats fine, but it doesn't change my point that a guy who is an absolute black hole when it comes to possession, shouldn't play more than a guy who would improve the possession game.

If you have players to play a more possession based approach.. use them.

Also dump and chase, can be a possession game, if you are a strong forechecking team... which describes LA, Boston, St. Louis.... etc.... Using size to play the forecheck and dumping, chasing and retrieving to generate offence is still effective. It requires speed though... and those teams couple the size with speed, and thats why it works.

Whats becoming less and less effective is a player who can't move the puck at all... who can't play a heavy dump and chase game in the offensive zone, and his only contribution is to block shots, throw hits and chip it off the glass. All of your defencemen need to be able to skate with the puck a little bit, and make an outlet pass. Thats the difference between a Gorges and a Murray. Gorges isn't gonna score 20 points, but he can help the possession game, where Murray just can't.

The reactions from this fan base about Murray are old hat. A number six with deficiencies, reconvene the Warren Commission!

Search for number six defensemen around the league, nothing impressive going on for most teams. Either unproven rookies, declining pros, or guys like Chris Campoli.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'll take an unproven green rookie nine times out of 10.

[Commandant]

Douglas Murray is the worst player in the NHL given a regular shift. This despite the fact he plays the easiest competition of all players on the Habs, and is given the advantage of huge offensive zone starts.

The only guys with advanced stats worse then him in the NHL have played less than 20 games, or have played less than 6 minutes a night on average. Thats it.

That is why Murray is the black hole of the team, especially with guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu around.

[illWill]

I like Murray

[hab29RETIRED]

I'm not a big Murray fan, but would easily pick him over Bouillon and pylons like campoli and Kaberle to be the 6th/7th dman. The day the habs actually are playing better players than Bouillon ahead of Murray, will be when we will truly have an elite dman. IMO, gorges is a bottem pairing dman, and because of the salary differential, I'd easily pick Murray over him.

Next year if we have:

Subban-Tinordi

Markov-Emelin

Beaulieu-Murray

AND

both Beaulieu and Tinordi show they are ready for full-time duty - especially if Beaulieu can push Emelin out of the top 4 - we will truly have an elite D.

I think having Markov play with both Tinordi and Beaulieu over the next 2 years will do wonders for their development.

Douglas Murray is the worst player in the NHL given a regular shift. This despite the fact he plays the easiest competition of all players on the Habs, and is given the advantage of huge offensive zone starts.

The only guys with advanced stats worse then him in the NHL have played less than 20 games, or have played less than 6 minutes a night on average. Thats it.

That is why Murray is the black hole of the team, especially with guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu around.

[habs rule]

I have watched him and I just don't find too many problems. As the saying goes stats are for losers. I see a big guy who hits hard, blocks shots, and interferes with guys in front of the net. Is he fleet of foot no. Is he a goal scorer no. But those aren't things we pay him for.

To me he is a better asset than the cube. The only problem is MT seems to agree with me so I know that can't be right. Advance stats is a class in university, all theory. Never been a fan.

[Guest Stogey24]

I have watched him and I just don't find too many problems. As the saying goes stats are for losers. I see a big guy who hits hard, blocks shots, and interferes with guys in front of the net. Is he fleet of foot no. Is he a goal scorer no. But those aren't things we pay him for.

To me he is a better asset than the cube. The only problem is MT seems to agree with me so I know that can't be right. Advance stats is a class in university, all theory. Never been a fan.

Lol, no doubt. I think its hilarious when these stats get tossed around. Murray is on this team to lay the body and stick up for his team mates. Thus far, he's don't exactly that. I bet he resigns next year too.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Oh god, I'm getting flashbacks to Ryan O'Byrne.

I think Crankshaft is hilarious looking but I'd much rather see a kid up than see him. Beaulieu and Tinordi should be regular in the top six rotation next season. With Markov, Subban, Gorges and Emelin that leaves zero room for him Crankshaft. If Pateryn is good enough to play we should be trading Gorges or Emelin. In no way, shape or form should Murray be considered a solution for our top six and I'm sick and tired of these fringe veterans getting spots over kids that need ice time.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Murray, Murray, Murray. I too subscribe to a simple, non-advanced-stats theory about him. Teams need a degree of physicality and intimidation especially in the D-zone. Whatever his limitations, Murray offers this to a team that desperately needed it, without being a complete joke of a player like Parros. That justifies dressing him IMHO.

As for dressing him over Tinordi, it's the same old issue about player development. Are you better off throwing a guy into the fire and letting him learn from his mistakes, or are you better letting a guy slowly learn how to dominate in the AHL, thoroughly mastering the pro game, before coming up? The risk of the former is destroying a player's confidence, causing the fans and organization to turn on him for immaturity (Hainsey, Grabs, Ribeiro) or else ruining him with unearned success (Fatendresse). The risk in the latter is harder to define...I can't think of a guy being ruined by being kept in the minors, but excessive caution does mean you have to pay more for veterans to do the same job.

Tinordi wasn't ready this season. That was obvious. So to my mind Murray was a solid signing. Not sure whether I'd re-sign him, though. Tinordi does have to step up at some point.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Douglas Murray is the worst player in the NHL given a regular shift. This despite the fact he plays the easiest competition of all players on the Habs, and is given the advantage of huge offensive zone starts.

The only guys with advanced stats worse then him in the NHL have played less than 20 games, or have played less than 6 minutes a night on average. Thats it.

That is why Murray is the black hole of the team, especially with guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu around.

But what's great about "advanced stats" is that all he has to do to change that is attempt to shoot five times a game, and EOTP and all the other tool bags are singing his praises. He doesn't shoot, that's why his corsi/fenwick are so low. Simple!

[Machine of Loving Grace]

or else ruining him with unearned success (Fatendresse). The risk in the latter is harder to define...

All Habs fans remember is Latendresse as a Hab. They never remember that when he went to Minnesota, they gave him more minutes (Montreal refused to give him more than 15 a game, but he regularly averaged 13) and he became a 25 goal scorer in 55 games for the Wild. Latendresse wasn't ruined by no AHL play. He was ruined by coach's not having confidence in his ability. Then he was ruined by injuries. He's the worst example one could make about a lack of AHL playing.

The AHL argument also doesn't take into consideration that Lefevbre is not leading any Bulldog player to dominate anything so what's the point of having him in Hamilton?

[Neech]

But what's great about "advanced stats" is that all he has to do to change that is attempt to shoot five times a game, and EOTP and all the other tool bags are singing his praises. He doesn't shoot, that's why his corsi/fenwick are so low. Simple!

Actually, Murray is less shot-averse than other guys like Desharnais or Gorges. And considering that those stats you mentioned measure TEAM shot attempts, your theory falls apart. Is the whole team passing up shots while Murray is on the ice, or are they not getting shot opportunities at all?

It's possible to be critical about advanced stats without taking these kinds of lowest-common-denominator cheap shots.

I'm of the opinion that Murray is better than the advanced stats crowd would have us believe, for the reasons Cucumber and others have mentioned. But the stats point to a problem that is less noticeable to the eye test, where we notice big hits and gritty blocks and may overlook bigger trends, and I don't think that Murray is a viable option for the future.

But all this is a moot point when Emelin is stinking it up worse than anyone. If he has another bad game against the Bruins I'd sit him against the Sens.

[Neech]

All Habs fans remember is Latendresse as a Hab. They never remember that when he went to Minnesota, they gave him more minutes (Montreal refused to give him more than 15 a game, but he regularly averaged 13) and he became a 25 goal scorer in 55 games for the Wild. Latendresse wasn't ruined by no AHL play. He was ruined by coach's not having confidence in his ability. Then he was ruined by injuries. He's the worst example one could make about a lack of AHL playing.

The AHL argument also doesn't take into consideration that Lefevbre is not leading any Bulldog player to dominate anything so what's the point of having him in Hamilton?

We've been over this before, but the argument could still be made that Latendresse was ruined in Montreal, which is just as bad for the organization. If he had worked his way up through the AHL, he might not have run into the 'distraction' problems that he did (and coaches may have given him more slack if he had proven himself more). I certainly don't see how a few years playing big minutes in the minors could have hurt, although it might not have made things any better.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Actually, Murray is less shot-averse than other guys like Desharnais or Gorges. And considering that those stats you mentioned measure TEAM shot attempts, your theory falls apart. Is the whole team passing up shots while Murray is on the ice, or are they not getting shot opportunities at all?

It's possible to be critical about advanced stats without taking these kinds of lowest-common-denominator cheap shots.

I'm of the opinion that Murray is better than the advanced stats crowd would have us believe, for the reasons Cucumber and others have mentioned. But the stats point to a problem that is less noticeable to the eye test, where we notice big hits and gritty blocks and may overlook bigger trends, and I don't think that Murray is a viable option for the future.

But all this is a moot point when Emelin is stinking it up worse than anyone. If he has another bad game against the Bruins I'd sit him against the Sens.

It's really not because the entire discussion is armchair GMimg at it's worst. What we have in advanced stats are a bunch of tear assed millenials who feel that they know more than coaches and GMs. For all intensive purposes, organizations are using analylitics. However the trolling possibilities are too great to pass up. The "douchebaggery" surrounding the advanced stats community is too much for it to be taken seriously. The conviction of it's scions are halfway between a cult and a Ron Popeil infomercial.

[Neech]

It's really not because the entire discussion is armchair GMimg at it's worst. What we have in advanced stats are a bunch of tear assed millenials who feel that they know more than coaches and GMs. For all intensive purposes, organizations are using analylitics. However the trolling possibilities are too great to pass up. The "douchebaggery" surrounding the advanced stats community is too much for it to be taken seriously. The conviction of it's scions are halfway between a cult and a Ron Popeil infomercial.

So some people act stupidly, so you do too? On twitter I see plenty of level-headed stats-based arguers and arguments, along with the smug know-it-alls. The trick is to rise above the muck. You don't have to be a smug know-it-all yourself.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

So some people act stupidly, so you do too? On twitter I see plenty of level-headed stats-based arguers and arguments, along with the smug know-it-alls. The trick is to rise above the muck. You don't have to be a smug know-it-all yourself.

Well, why not? That's what advanced stats bring to the table. As for the discussion itself, can we get three "z's" for the level of stimulation/entertainment we get out of discussing advanced stats?

It's good to see that Pierre McGuire, and his style of work will be continued...

"Sedins are on the ice, CHARA IS COMING ON THE ICE EDDIE!"

5 years from now:

"Murray is on the ice! He has the lowest corsi of all defenseman playing more than twenty games. MURRAY IS PINNED IN HIS ZONE EDDIE!"

Brave New World.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Hockey is actually behind in stat crunching when it comes to the major North American sports.

If you have a 1000 ways to explain that Murray is a crap defenceman and only two to explain he's a good defenceman (HE HIT GOOD, HE BLOCK GOOD), should tell you something about which side you should be supporting about him.

[DON]

Is trivial entertainment and Murray, as I have said lots, makes me laugh almost every game.

I am in a 'could give a rats ass' about some stats (I hated stats courses in university, so maybe biased), I simply am a fan in good teammates who give 100% ( a la Gorges).

Hits, block shots, zero post whistle scrums around Price all frickin year and a 240lb cheerleader that is much more effective than a Parros wouldn't you say.

Should he be playing near 20minutes; no, but I would resign as depth d-man in a heartbeat, he wont block Beaulieu-Tinordi from becoming what they will become.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Hockey is actually behind in stat crunching when it comes to the major North American sports.

If you have a 1000 ways to explain that Murray is a crap defenceman and only two to explain he's a good defenceman (HE HIT GOOD, HE BLOCK GOOD), should tell you something about which side you should be supporting about him.

"Justin Williams is on the ice Eddie! His possesion is unreal! I can't wait to see him dangle and hold the puck! WILLIAMS IS ABSOLUTELY PINNING THEM IN THEIR ZONE EDDIE!"

[Guest Stogey24]

Hockey is actually behind in stat crunching when it comes to the major North American sports.

If you have a 1000 ways to explain that Murray is a crap defenceman and only two to explain he's a good defenceman (HE HIT GOOD, HE BLOCK GOOD), should tell you something about which side you should be supporting about him.

Hmm, I can't seem to remember what Murray was brought in to do.... Oh wait, hit good, block good and on top of these be a good team player. At 1.5 mill I can't believe people are bitching still. Maybe people would rather have Bouillon as their number 6....Nah, I didn't think so. Murray's experience will help this team in the playoffs.