Tom Gilbert Isn't Getting the Job Done

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Not big NHL minutes. Just regular NHL minutes.

Like Alec Martinez at 22 yo, Roman Josi at 22, Ryan Ellis at 22. and on and on and on. Regular NHL duty.

Right. But it is a fallacy to assume that because those guys are ready, so is Beaulieu. Forsberg is ready at 20. Latendresse wasn't. So much for that argument.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Nick Boynton: 9th overall in 1997, 21st overall in 1999. Didn't play a full season until 01-02,

Nicklas Kronwall: 29th overall pick in 2000. Didn't start playing regular hockey with the Red Wings until 06-07.

Brooks Orpik: 18th overall pick in 2000. Despite the Penguins being garbage he didn't play regular until 03-04 (at 24).

Keith Ballard: 11th overall pick in 2002. Just turned 23 in his first full season with Phoenix.

There's more examples. Not all players are equal. Didn't we learn from reading all of the projections on McCarron compared to other players with bad first years?

[JoeLassister]

I hear you two.

It is just that when I see Beaulieu play with the Habs (Tinordi at a minor extent), I don't see any reason why he should not play instead of Gilbert or Allen or even Weaver.

I just don't see it. Corsi/Fenwick or not.

I just don't see how they're supposed to not make any mistake when they will finally play regular minutes. Subban makes mistakes, Markov does as well. They ALL do.

I want them to make as many mistakes as possible RIGHT NOW for them to learn faster and for Habs to win that 25th Cup ASAP. I don't believe one minute that next SC will come from Weaver-Gilbert-Allen.

I hope they will all sit comes playoffs time. But I just can't see how Beaulieu and Tinordi can progress that much without getting regular NHL minutes. I don't believe that they need more AHL minutes right now.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'm personally still of the stance that Tinordi and Beaulieu should be playing regardless of mistakes. I still want to see something like:

Tinordi - Subban

Markov - Gonchar

Beaulieu - Emelin

Flip Emelin and Gonchar if you want. Either way, both work better as RD than LD even if they are left handed. The Emelin to LD experiment has pretty much flopped.

If Subban is our only right handed shot so be it. I'd rather put the best players out than worry about stick hand.

Playing Komiasrek with Markov turned him into an NHL defenceman. I think the same could happen with Tinordi.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

I heard a rumor from someone down here that Gilbert owns five hair dryers.

[Habs30/31]

I would reiterate that it is NOT self-evident that Tin-Man and Beaulieu are ready. Tinordi, to me, has not seemed to be quite there. His confidence seems fragile and the game seems to overwhelm him at times. Beaulieu doesn't seem to have that problem; I suspect the issue there is more one of maturity and comportment. 'Character issues' have tended to follow him around. Considering that he had to play heavily sheltered, protected minutes, maybe Therrien would rather do that with a guy who isn't a pain in the ass. And maybe a bit more time in the minors will help Nate the Great to learn how to be a professional.

I'm not saying that Beaulieu definitely is a problem. What I'm saying is that we don't know the details, and that it really is entirely possible that there are good reasons for letting the kids marinade a bit longer.

The Gal(l)ys came up and were given big minutes by Therrien from the get-go. Bournival also got a lot of shifts before his game settled back to its natural (mediocre) level. Subban and Eller have been staples of his lineup eating huge minutes, right from the start. So history shows that Therrien is, in fact, willing to play young players. This idea that he is going to dress mediocre veterans over effective, fully ready young guns is not well-founded by anything other than the usual 'Therrien is an idiot' axiomatic reasoning.

Also, Bergevin - who knows a thing or two about player development, having served in this role for the Chicago Blackhawks (maybe you've heard of them?) - agreed that the two kids need more seasoning, and made trades to facilitate that. Your argument is not just with Therrien, then; it's with Zoot Suit.

The D needs Gilbert playing like he can, a lot more than it needs Beaulieu playing sheltered minutes.

Eller and subban were here a ton of game and ice time before therrien was hired.

The game "seems" to overwhelm Tinordi at times. Never noticed that but if so .... might be a tad overwhelming knowing you are the only d out there that cant make a mistake without moving back to Hamilton after it, and playing ten minutes a night with Mike Weaver would make Markov look ordinary.

Maybe i am just anxious to see if these guys are gonna be part of the top 4 or top 6 next season (i believe they can be)...............because if they are not good enough (as mt seems to believe) well the habs are in a bad way. Subban is the only Canadien defenseman on the ice last night that is not past hid best before date.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree that there is some cause for concern. One thing that worries me is that difficulty of integrating two rookie defencemen into the lineup during the same season. Sure, it's possible, but prima facie that is a high-risk strategy if you want your team to win lots of games. And what that suggests in turn is that at least one of Beaulieu or Tinordi might have to spend the better part of yet another season in Hamilton after this one (!).

That, to my mind, is actually the biggest argument for integrating one of those two into the lineup this season - just so that we can gradually, rather than suddenly, accomplish the change-over from veterans to rookies on the back end.

It's almost at the point where we should hope for an injury in the bottom pairings of the D-corps, just to give a shot to one of those two.

All that said, there's no getting around this basic truth: if they ain't ready, they ain't ready. Wishful thinking won't change this. And while The Genius and Zoot Suit might be wrong about this readiness or lack thereof, they also might be right about it. We just don't know, really.

[dlbalr]

I agree that there is some cause for concern. One thing that worries me is that difficulty of integrating two rookie defencemen into the lineup during the same season. Sure, it's possible, but prima facie that is a high-risk strategy if you want your team to win lots of games. And what that suggests in turn is that at least one of Beaulieu or Tinordi might have to spend the better part of yet another season in Hamilton after this one (!).

That's not going to happen. Both have to clear waivers next year so they'll be up full-time.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

That's not going to happen. Both have to clear waivers next year so they'll be up full-time.

Oh, hey, thanks. Didn't realize that.

OK, so I guess the Habs are committed either to working both of them in full-time next season, OR cutting at least one of 'em loose. That does put things in a slightly different perspective.

[dlbalr]

Oh, hey, thanks. Didn't realize that.

OK, so I guess the Habs are committed either to working both of them in full-time next season, OR cutting at least one of 'em loose. That does put things in a slightly different perspective.

Another idea is that they feel both still have warts to work out in the minors so they need to do it now because they won't be able to next year. I think they're still hoping one of them forces their way in this year though.

[hab29RETIRED]

Even more of a reason to play them now. Otherwise we risk losing them or need to trade them. We've already lost beauchimam and Hainsey to waivers.

That's not going to happen. Both have to clear waivers next year so they'll be up full-time.

[DON]

Who knows if Oilers (or other teams like that) are eyeing up, kicking tires and made standing offers for either, that Bergevin is mulling over and one of the two is 1/2 way out the door already? (hopefully it would be the smaller of the two)

If trade one for a similar quality young forward might not be bad move.

[dlbalr]

Even more of a reason to play them now. Otherwise we risk losing them or need to trade them. We've already lost beauchimam and Hainsey to waivers.

I don't think Bergevin is naive enough to believe that one of those two would clear waivers next year. They'd be dealt before being waived but I think the plan still is for them to be with the Habs moving forward...presuming they fix the issues that got them demoted in the first place. (Beaulieu is still a turnover machine since being sent down while Tinordi's physical edge seems to have gone away after a few games.)

[hab29RETIRED]

Can they be as worse as Allen, weaver and Gilbert have been? Gilbert was okay yesterday, but he has been pretty bad most nights.

I don't think Bergevin is naive enough to believe that one of those two would clear waivers next year. They'd be dealt before being waived but I think the plan still is for them to be with the Habs moving forward...presuming they fix the issues that got them demoted in the first place. (Beaulieu is still a turnover machine since being sent down while Tinordi's physical edge seems to have gone away after a few games.)

[Guest Stogey24]

Can they be as worse as Allen, weaver and Gilbert have been? Gilbert was okay yesterday, but he has been pretty bad most nights.

You can only develop so much in the minors. I'm not a fan of how these kids have been treated. You have two of what were once the best offensive defensemen in the league (Markov and Gonchar) to show a kid like Beaulieu the rights and wrongs of being a offensively minded d-man in the NHL. Management hasn't taken advantage of that at all

[dlbalr]

Can they be as worse as Allen, weaver and Gilbert have been? Gilbert was okay yesterday, but he has been pretty bad most nights.

Sure they could. They could be better too, or the same. I think it boils down to this - you're going to get average-to-mediocre performances from those three most nights and what Beaulieu and Tinordi were providing was more or less the same. With the veterans, most focus on the negatives and with the youngsters, the positives get highlighted but to me, their performances on the whole have been more or less the same. By sending them down, they can play big minutes, play in all (or most) situations, and get some rhythm and confidence while hopefully making improvements in their weak areas. Having one or both of them in a 6/7 rotation with Montreal doesn't accomplish much of that right now. All the while, you're getting more or less the same type of so-so performance from the veteran placeholders.

I'm confident one or both will get their chance later on. The Habs have lost three man-games to injury on the blueline in 28 games. They've been absurdly healthy. Odds being odds, that won't continue and when an injury does strike, one of them is going to get a chance to make a better impression than they did in the first six weeks of the year. They just better make sure to make the most of it when that time comes, they didn't when they got their chance in October/November.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Part of the difference between guys like me, who have some concerns but are hardly strident on this question, and other folks on this site, is that I think Bergevin in particular has considerable expertise in developing young players. He and Therrien are not blithering idiots without a clue, like the Dumbass Duo of Houle and Tremblay. Too many posters hereabouts act as though they are self-evidently moronic in their treatment of the youngsters. Yet they have a FAR better idea of what Beaulieu and Tinordi are like, both as players and as human beings, than we do. Now they may still make mistakes on this front. But appalled, angry outrage is probably a hysterical reaction to their decisions here.

[DON]

Gilbert and Weaver terrible positioning led to 1st goal.

but, I assume LaCarriere, Mellanby, Dudley Lapointe, Bergevin as a group thinks yes is better to stick the older vets for now.

And is but foolish to think more AHL time is anything but bad for young d-men (name one example where it was so...).

Who both have been given shots at big club for 2 years now haven't they?

I don't get that many seem to propose, over and over again that Habs Mgmt members havent been around NHL for decades, know intimately the strengths/weaknesses of many (all) of current and recently retired players.

They are not idiots and for past 2 /1/2 years have been building a darn good team, out of the ashs of the 11/12 season.

The forward group is more lacking than defense is, but no easy quick fix with top three forwards are 49th, 57th and 66th in scoring race.

[dlbalr]

You can only develop so much in the minors. I'm not a fan of how these kids have been treated. You have two of what were once the best offensive defensemen in the league (Markov and Gonchar) to show a kid like Beaulieu the rights and wrongs of being a offensively minded d-man in the NHL. Management hasn't taken advantage of that at all

You're right that you can only develop so much in the minors, there is a point of stagnation. Stagnation often comes after about 5 years in the AHL after a couple of years of steady development followed by two years of incremental improvement and a fifth season where the biggest positive is "hey, at least he didn't get worse." (See Gabriel Dumont for a current example of this.) Neither Tinordi nor Beaulieu have hit that point yet though. No rookie can in their ELC. They really haven't even had that second season of steady development as both had incremental gains at best last year. There's still lots for them to improve on with Hamilton; neither d-man is really dominant down there.

As for Markov/Gonchar mentoring Beaulieu, Markov has been around for as long as Beaulieu has been a part of the organization. I'm sure Markov has imparted some wisdom/suggestions to him. If Beaulieu wants to ask something of Gonchar, I'm sure he can pick up his phone and ask for some advice as well. It's not the same as being there but it's still something. And there has been some overlap where Gonchar, Markov, and Beaulieu were all up at the same time...and I'm sure there will be later on as well.

[DON]

soundcloud.com/dogsradio

(I cant post proper hyperlinks anymore, thanks to wonderful WIndows 8.1 updates)

anyways, Matt Holmes has interviews with Lefebvre and Donald Dufresne talks about Dogs-d

(I see now that you already had link on main page anyways)

[hab29RETIRED]

I don't think Bergevin is naive enough to believe that one of those two would clear waivers next year. They'd be dealt before being waived but I think the plan still is for them to be with the Habs moving forward...presuming they fix the issues that got them demoted in the first place. (Beaulieu is still a turnover machine since being sent down while Tinordi's physical edge seems to have gone away after a few games.)

[hab29RETIRED]

Sending them to Lefebve is not going to help them. The weakest link in the organization is the Hamilton coaching staff, why send them down to regress further, when at least they can used to the NHL game and speed.

Sure they could. They could be better too, or the same. I think it boils down to this - you're going to get average-to-mediocre performances from those three most nights and what Beaulieu and Tinordi were providing was more or less the same. With the veterans, most focus on the negatives and with the youngsters, the positives get highlighted but to me, their performances on the whole have been more or less the same. By sending them down, they can play big minutes, play in all (or most) situations, and get some rhythm and confidence while hopefully making improvements in their weak areas. Having one or both of them in a 6/7 rotation with Montreal doesn't accomplish much of that right now. All the while, you're getting more or less the same type of so-so performance from the veteran placeholders.

I'm confident one or both will get their chance later on. The Habs have lost three man-games to injury on the blueline in 28 games. They've been absurdly healthy. Odds being odds, that won't continue and when an injury does strike, one of them is going to get a chance to make a better impression than they did in the first six weeks of the year. They just better make sure to make the most of it when that time comes, they didn't when they got their chance in October/November.

[hab29RETIRED]

Chicago developed a lot of their key guys with the big team. There wasn't this yo-yo where the player didn't get into the rythmn of the NHL or AHL game (a coach like Lefebve also doesn't help).

Last year, Tinordi should have been a viable option fit the playoffs, but because he was buried in Hamilton and than the press box for so long, you really couldn't throw him in. It would have been better to work with Tinordi during the year, so he is prepared and us aviable option in the playoffs. Playing a grunt like Murray was a waste of time. He was useless during the year and the playoffs.

Now we are seeing s repeat with Allen and Gilbert.

Part of the difference between guys like me, who have some concerns but are hardly strident on this question, and other folks on this site, is that I think Bergevin in particular has considerable expertise in developing young players. He and Therrien are not blithering idiots without a clue, like the Dumbass Duo of Houle and Tremblay. Too many posters hereabouts act as though they are self-evidently moronic in their treatment of the youngsters. Yet they have a FAR better idea of what Beaulieu and Tinordi are like, both as players and as human beings, than we do. Now they may still make mistakes on this front. But appalled, angry outrage is probably a hysterical reaction to their decisions here.

[hab29RETIRED]

Asking a question isn't the same as pairing up with Markov or gonchar. Picking up gonchar is a waste if you aren't going to play him with Tinordi or Beaulieu.

You're right that you can only develop so much in the minors, there is a point of stagnation. Stagnation often comes after about 5 years in the AHL after a couple of years of steady development followed by two years of incremental improvement and a fifth season where the biggest positive is "hey, at least he didn't get worse." (See Gabriel Dumont for a current example of this.) Neither Tinordi nor Beaulieu have hit that point yet though. No rookie can in their ELC. They really haven't even had that second season of steady development as both had incremental gains at best last year. There's still lots for them to improve on with Hamilton; neither d-man is really dominant down there.

As for Markov/Gonchar mentoring Beaulieu, Markov has been around for as long as Beaulieu has been a part of the organization. I'm sure Markov has imparted some wisdom/suggestions to him. If Beaulieu wants to ask something of Gonchar, I'm sure he can pick up his phone and ask for some advice as well. It's not the same as being there but it's still something. And there has been some overlap where Gonchar, Markov, and Beaulieu were all up at the same time...and I'm sure there will be later on as well.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

If Lefevbre is indeed a disaster in Hamilton, than THAT is the problem that needs to be fixed. Putting guys in the NHL so as to keep them away from your AHL coaches is just bizarre logic. Indeed, by that logic we should call up any player that projects to be an NHLer so as to protect them from the havoc being wreaked by those coaches. (Oh, wait, our NHL staff is dedicated to destroying young players too - I forgot).

What I am ultimately saying is that Bergevin probably knows more about player development than we do, and he certainly knows more about the specific individuals involved than us. This doesn't mean we can't disagree with him. But it does mean that our disagreement should be tempered with an awareness that we have significantly less information, and substantially fewer credentials, than the guy making the decision.