hab29RETIRED Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 sure, but when the same coach regularly rolls DD despite his defensive faults AND inability to produce the argument doesn't really hold. It would have been nice to see Gally with Galchenyuk for an extended look when games really mattered. Players - particularly young players tend to produce a lot more in meaningless games, when its already been determined that the team is out of contention. When a guy is on pace to score 100 goals or whatever Galy's current production amounts to when pro-rated over 82 games, I'm pretty willing to excuse a bit of defensive iffiness. But your wider point is valid; Galy was a work in progress who needed to learn the NHL game. The polar opposite of the Therrien approach - gradualism to a fault, constant insistence that the player develop a complete game - is the Edmonton approach, where a bunch of talented FWs have never learned how to play properly and have never fully realized their potential in consequence. I never did subscribe to this idea that you should just take kids and roll them 25 minutes per night, irrespective of their actual performance, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I was never one to want Galchenyuk rushed. I was fine with him playing his first two seasons on left wing until he learned the pace of the game. Coming into this year, it was clearly time for him to take the top six centre role from Desharnais, who started the year strong in a third line role. But Therrien never fully committed to Galchenyuk as he had him play left wing on the powerplay and when the team had trouble scoring, instead of surrounding Galchenyuk with better wingers, he pushed Desharnais back into the top centre role and moved Chuck to the wing. The last time a Hab was so bizarrely treated was Pierre Turgeon in 96-97. After nearly 100 points down the middle, Tremblay pushed Turgeon to the wing to allow Koivu the top six centre role (since he was adamant to keep Damphousse, a career LW he moved to centre, at centre) and when Turgeon excelled at wing, the Habs traded him for a return worse than the Roy deal just because Tremblay convinced Houle they needed a physical winger to play with Saku. It's a forest from the trees issue with coaches. Therrien trusts Desharnais when he isn't a great defensive player but doesn't trust Galchenyuk due to his youth and style of play. It was obvious 20 years ago what Tremblay should have done (move damphousse back to LW to play with Turgeon and Recchi while Rucinsky - Koivu - Bure become a young gun second line) and it's been obvious to everyone all year what Therrien should have done: keep Galchenyuk at centre, find him better wingers than Eller and Semin. We drafted Galchenyuk four years ago. Time to remove the training wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Yep, I think we can all agree that MT's deference to a hapless Desharnais this season was counter-productive and inexplicable. One critique of MT is that he's been slow to make adjustments. Similarly, he was bizarrely slow to adjust to the fact that DD's game had evaporated and that Galy's was improving. In terms of the overall story of MT and AG, however - the big picture - MT deserves credit in so far as Galy is now really emerging as an impact player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Yep, I think we can all agree that MT's deference to a hapless Desharnais this season was counter-productive and inexplicable. One critique of MT is that he's been slow to make adjustments. Similarly, he was bizarrely slow to adjust to the fact that DD's game had evaporated and that Galy's was improving. In terms of the overall story of MT and AG, however - the big picture - MT deserves credit in so far as Galy is now really emerging as an impact player. I'm sure Therrien and the entire coaching staff deserves some credit for the development of a lot of guys but I have a tough time crediting him for Galchenyuk and Subban when Therrien has tried doubting them so many times. People now forget that Subban started his Norris trophy winning year on the third pairing with Bouillon. I'll be the first to give him credit for trusting Gallagher immediately and always looking to give him more responsibility. Same to his work with Weise and choosing Condon over Tokarski when most coaches would have sent Mikey down. But while Therrien may have helped Chuck and Subban at times, he has also been their biggest obstacle when they were already "there" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I'm sure Therrien and the entire coaching staff deserves some credit for the development of a lot of guys but I have a tough time crediting him for Galchenyuk and Subban when Therrien has tried doubting them so many times. People now forget that Subban started his Norris trophy winning year on the third pairing with Bouillon. I'll be the first to give him credit for trusting Gallagher immediately and always looking to give him more responsibility. Same to his work with Weise and choosing Condon over Tokarski when most coaches would have sent Mikey down. But while Therrien may have helped Chuck and Subban at times, he has also been their biggest obstacle when they were already "there" I did forget that anecdote about Subban and Bouillon. They played together, that I knew, but I forgot Therrien slotted him in as a third pairing guy, ostensibly to fire a volley in an old school coaching head game. You can add that to the list of at least a dozen idiotic decisions by Therrien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 100% agree. I think that MT still holds subban back too much. He has had some bad giveaways this year that constantly get magnified more than they merit, but part of it is there has been no other friggin guy on the team that was generating offense until Galchenyuk's recent emergence. MT was still questioning subban half way through his Norris year. And now he I doing his spin doctoring about how it's a process with young players. This was Galchenyuk's 4th friggin year. He should have had the shares removed in training camp and been paired with maxpac. I'm sure Therrien and the entire coaching staff deserves some credit for the development of a lot of guys but I have a tough time crediting him for Galchenyuk and Subban when Therrien has tried doubting them so many times. People now forget that Subban started his Norris trophy winning year on the third pairing with Bouillon. I'll be the first to give him credit for trusting Gallagher immediately and always looking to give him more responsibility. Same to his work with Weise and choosing Condon over Tokarski when most coaches would have sent Mikey down. But while Therrien may have helped Chuck and Subban at times, he has also been their biggest obstacle when they were already "there" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 You can add that to the list of at least a dozen idiotic decisions by Therrien. Yes at least a dozen IDIOTIC decisions, the rest were just mildly stooopid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I was just joking. Completely forgot I think we're waiting on you to get today's since you were skipped over for this game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I think we're waiting on you to get today's since you were skipped over for this game... Alright. I'll do it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I'm sure Therrien and the entire coaching staff deserves some credit for the development of a lot of guys but I have a tough time crediting him for Galchenyuk and Subban when Therrien has tried doubting them so many times. People now forget that Subban started his Norris trophy winning year on the third pairing with Bouillon. I'll be the first to give him credit for trusting Gallagher immediately and always looking to give him more responsibility. Same to his work with Weise and choosing Condon over Tokarski when most coaches would have sent Mikey down. But while Therrien may have helped Chuck and Subban at times, he has also been their biggest obstacle when they were already "there" Yeah, well, like I say above, this is a circular argument. When a guy doesn't develop as we'd like, that's Therrien's fault. When he does develop, well, he was a can't-miss kid who would have been even BETTER without Therrien. It's like listening to Republicans talk about Obama. A much more sensible approach is to say that Therrien deserves (some) criticism if and when a kid's development gets stunted, and deserves (some) credit when a player becomes a success. Otherwise, all we have is axiomatic reasoning - Therrien is The Devil ergo only the bad stuff is his fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Yeah, well, like I say above, this is a circular argument. When a guy doesn't develop as we'd like, that's Therrien's fault. When he does develop, well, he was a can't-miss kid who would have been even BETTER without Therrien. It's like listening to Republicans talk about Obama. A much more sensible approach is to say that Therrien deserves (some) criticism if and when a kid's development gets stunted, and deserves (some) credit when a player becomes a success. Otherwise, all we have is axiomatic reasoning - Therrien is The Devil ergo only the bad stuff is his fault.He's had a great couple of years, but you're seeing the ugliness and the rancor he's brought to American politics in the primaries. Both of the candidates (Bernie and Trump) are running on populist class warfare, and America pre-Obama avoided that kind of dialogue for 230 years, with the exception of Williams Jennings Bryant.I don't want to get into it, because I'm refusing to vote for any of these clowns, but for someone like Mitt Romney to lose twice because he's "the rich guy" is unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 He's had a great couple of years, but you're seeing the ugliness and the rancor he's brought to American politics in the primaries. Both of the candidates (Bernie and Trump) are running on populist class warfare, and America pre-Obama avoided that kind of dialogue for 230 years, with the exception of Williams Jennings Bryant. I don't want to get into it, because I'm refusing to vote for any of these clowns, but for someone like Mitt Romney to lose twice because he's "the rich guy" is unacceptable. You're blaming Obama for the terrible state of political discourse in America, and not, say, the actual belligerents? That's like blaming Therrien for Kreider running Price, to bring it back to hockey. Romney lost because he had to turn his back on his entire record to satisfy the nutsos running his party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Reagan was all about class warfare. That's why Lee Atwater ran his campaigns (and Bush Sr.) The only way someone could make a statement like that is because they don't know who Atwater was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Let's not go there... Canadians have a skewed and small ball view of politics because their country has never been important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 The Republican party has been waging class warfare for 40 years. Agreed. I'd argue that Obama deliberately chose not to attack Wall Street when he had the chance, opting instead to invest his political capital in health care reform. Otherwise put, he consciously decided against 'class warfare,' i.e., seriously challenging the American plutocracy. And anyone blaming Obama for a toxic culture in Washington needs to consider the Republican war on Bill Clinton. The fact is, a critical mass of Republicans after Reagan have been unable to accept the fundamental legitimacy of Democratic presidents, and in this mindset deny one of the foundations of democracy itself. Lovett's attack on Canadians, meanwhile, betrays a wonderfully American parochialism. On almost any measure, the US is the outlier among OECD nations, not Canada. That said, when I brought up Obama, I was NOT trying to launch a political discussion!! I was making an analogy. Many Republicans, when they talk about Obama, are not interested in balance or evidence, i.e., rational argument; Obama is just axiomatically bad. If the US economy prospers, it's in spite of him. If it falters, it's because of him. That sort of thing. And listening to many Habs fans talk about Therrien is exactly the same kind of experience. The premise - Therrien as Evil - relentlessly determines the conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Let's not go there... Canadians have a skewed and small ball view of politics because their country has never been important. Probably not the best place to post something like that bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 You're blaming Obama for the terrible state of political discourse in America, and not, say, the actual belligerents? That's like blaming Therrien for Kreider running Price, to bring it back to hockey. Romney lost because he had to turn his back on his entire record to satisfy the nutsos running his party. Obama said that. That his biggest regret was the amount of rancor in political discourse during his presidency. Great presidents from both sides of the aisles are unifiers. We have checks and balances in America, someone with attitude of "I won, we're doing this" isn't going to be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 The Republican party has been waging class warfare for 40 years. Agreed. I'd argue that Obama deliberately chose not to attack Wall Street when he had the chance, opting instead to invest his political capital in health care reform. Otherwise put, he consciously decided against 'class warfare,' i.e., seriously challenging the American plutocracy. And anyone blaming Obama for a toxic culture in Washington needs to consider the Republican war on Bill Clinton. The fact is, a critical mass of Republicans after Reagan have been unable to accept the fundamental legitimacy of Democratic presidents, and in this mindset deny one of the foundations of democracy itself. Lovett's attack on Canadians, meanwhile, betrays a wonderfully American parochialism. On almost any measure, the US is the outlier among OECD nations, not Canada. That said, when I brought up Obama, I was NOT trying to launch a political discussion!! I was making an analogy. Many Republicans, when they talk about Obama, are not interested in balance or evidence, i.e., rational argument; Obama is just axiomatically bad. If the US economy prospers, it's in spite of him. If it falters, it's because of him. That sort of thing. And listening to many Habs fans talk about Therrien is exactly the same kind of experience. The premise - Therrien as Evil - relentlessly determines the conclusions. I'm a Libertarian, so any categorical accusation based on my presumed party can be thrown out the window. I'm actually considering voting for Hillary Clinton if my conscience gets to me about not voting.1. Clinton lied under oath (perjury) which is why he impeached. Amazing how few people know that. 2. Romney lost the election because Obama harped on his tax returns, and insinuated that he was an out of touch rich guy whom didn't pay his fair share of taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Probably not the best place to post something like that bud No, that's fine, because nobody in this great country of Canada gives a flying F$ck what an American thinks anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 No, that's fine, because nobody in this great country of Canada gives a flying F$ck what an American thinks anyway Greatest nation in the history of Ever! America makes the world spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 And lets not forget! For the more urbane, but similarly smug friends North of the 49th... Mavis Gallant and Alice Murno are great and all, but they are no Eudora Welty, and the Master of the Short Story is Flannery O'Connor. Do they have novelists in Canada? Haven't heard of any, and I read forty novels a year. Blues and Jazz and Rock and Roll come from America...Canada has the Hip, Nickleback, and Bryan Adams. America has the New Yorker, the Atlantic, and Harpers while Canada employs Steve Simmonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 The Bruins are Calling your name bud. They need some more ignorant fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted March 13, 2016 Author Share Posted March 13, 2016 The earth spins because it always has. "There is no respect for others without humility in one's self." Amiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Let's not go there... Canadians have a skewed and small ball view of politics because their country has never been important. Easy there, you're sounding like one of your kinfolk who can't find Europe on a map. You know, like 40% of the country. Obama said that. That his biggest regret was the amount of rancor in political discourse during his presidency. Great presidents from both sides of the aisles are unifiers. We have checks and balances in America, someone with attitude of "I won, we're doing this" isn't going to be successful. Actually, Bush Jr said that upon reelection, and basically any 2nd term president has had that attitude, Obama is hardly an outlier. In fact, he recently admitted one major mistake: not making sufficient allowances for how unreasonable other people are. You can't blame Obama for the shitshow that has been the Republican party. And lets not forget! For the more urbane, but similarly smug friends North of the 49th... Mavis Gallant and Alice Murno are great and all, but they are no Eudora Welty, and the Master of the Short Story is Flannery O'Connor. Do they have novelists in Canada? Haven't heard of any, and I read forty novels a year. Blues and Jazz and Rock and Roll come from America...Canada has the Hip, Nickleback, and Bryan Adams. America has the New Yorker, the Atlantic, and Harpers while Canada employs Steve Simmonds. Here I'll agree with you; the totality of American culture greatly overshadows Canada's - but then again, you've got 9x the population and a longer history. Canada also doesn't have NEARLY the level of absolute crap, of which the cyclical political farce is merely one example. Check out Yann Martel, Margaret Atwood, Alastair McCleod, William Gibson if you're looking for starters! And btw, in my experience people who say they're libertarian are basically Republicans who don't go out of their way to hate gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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