Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[Commandant]

I don't put any stock into the "leading the league in turnovers" stat, when every single player who is in the top 15 of that list is an elite NHL player who any team would love to have.

Elite players touch the puck more... Elite players make more turnovers.

Thats without even getting into the problems of the stat, which is that its not consistent rink to rink.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Biggest thing about Price's comments was about the coaching system. The moment the coach changes he'll have a different opinion on how things are supposed to work. That's called buying into the system.

[Scott462]

Biggest thing about Price's comments was about the coaching system. The moment the coach changes he'll have a different opinion on how things are supposed to work. That's called buying into the system.

The thing is it looks like Price and the rest of the team actually did buy into the system and want to win with it and we're having success with it per past years and the beginning of last year. It really is too bad Subban couldn't get on board with it. I really don't think it has anything to do with being a "robot" or talk like that.

[illWill]

Do you think the voters even notice if the assists are primary or secondary, he was still amongst the league leaders in points by a dman when he went down. If he kept that pace, they would have seen him high on the scoring chart, which equals votes.

So you're saying that secondary assists are equally as important when compiling point totals? And to answer your question, yes, I do think that the voters actually do research and put actual thought into their vote. This is their livelihood and they are basically the best at what they do. He was among the league leaders in points by a dman when he went down and yet still only received two stinking 4th place votes, while playing 82% of the season. Connor McDavid only played 54% of the season and was still a finalist for the Calder

Why would price's comments irk anyone? He didn't say anything bad about anyone. All he said was Shea game fits the habs better because of the way the team is coached. He is right in what he said. If we had any other coach PK would still be on the team. That's what I got out of his comments.

But we don't have any other coach. This coach was selected by the GM because he fits the style that the GM wants to play and believes is successful. Therrien is going to be Therrien, so if there's blame to be had it should be on Bergevin. But I'm not one to pass blame onto a management group that has brought this team to an Eastern Conference final, a semi-final and a 2nd overall finish in the regular season.

And him leading NHL in turnovers for years, likely doesnt help when add in that he also are a risk taker (thank god Price was there to bail him out), as seen by several game costing gaffs and fellow teammates chastising him after bonehead lone-wolf plays.

And when he tries to go end to end, looks good and fancy but ineffective and normally puck is headed in other direction in short order, unlike a Karlsson rush. A Subban rush has as much a chance of scoring as his shooting from the point does.

Again, he isn't a Hab anymore, he is a member of the team with the ugliest uniform's in the league, so why keep beating dead horse and trying to pump his tires.

It's very much true that Subban rushes practically never led to goals. He'd make some nice plays to make us "oooh and ahhh", but the end result wasn't a goal. Personally I love the individual plays, but I'm a fan. It is terribly frustrating as a player or coach to have someone go against what the rest of the team is doing. Everyone on the ice is expecting one thing but they get another and they don't know where to go on the audible play.

I don't put any stock into the "leading the league in turnovers" stat, when every single player who is in the top 15 of that list is an elite NHL player who any team would love to have.

Elite players touch the puck more... Elite players make more turnovers.

Thats without even getting into the problems of the stat, which is that its not consistent rink to rink.

Is there a stat out there for turnovers per possession of puck? Seriously, I'd like to know

Biggest thing about Price's comments was about the coaching system. The moment the coach changes he'll have a different opinion on how things are supposed to work. That's called buying into the system.

Hockey is a team sport and it needs everyone pulling in the same direction. This day and age everything is so precise and telegraphed from a game plan point of view. Otherwise it may as well be my rec league where it doesn't matter if a guy tries to do too much.

I'm just going to leave this here as well:

"Just physically, he's man mountain. When he looks at you, you know business. He's as good a human being as I've ever been around, period. So he doesn't have to say much - all he's got to do is look at you and you snap into shape. He makes you a better coach. If you haven't been cross-checked in the ribs by him you find out what that is, too. He cuts a big swath out there. He shoots it so hard no one wants to stand in his lane. But what I like about him best is when he walks into the dressing room you know it's business. And so he's a culture-type person. He makes your franchise better when he walks in the door. Bar none."

-Arguably the best coach in the world, Mike Babcock describing Shea Weber

[Commandant]

"So you're saying that secondary assists are equally as important when compiling point totals? And to answer your question, yes, I do think that the voters actually do research and put actual thought into their vote. This is their livelihood and they are basically the best at what they do. He was among the league leaders in points by a dman when he went down and yet still only received two stinking 4th place votes, while playing 82% of the season. Connor McDavid only played 54% of the season and was still a finalist for the Calder"

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/alex-ovechkin-named-to-all-star-team-twice-because-reading-is-hard

The NHL is dumb. Or rather, it appears that the people in charge of voting for end-of-year awards are dumb, after Alex Ovechkin was named to the first all-star team at right wing as well as the second all-star team at left wing on Wednesday.

Now, it is true Ovechkin had a very good season. He led the NHL with 32 goals and tied for third in scoring with 56 points. For that, he was awarded the Hart Trophy as the NHL’s MVP. But was it good enough to warrant two NHL all-star team selections?Yes, the Washington Capitals forward made both teams — at different positions.

...

The problem here is that voters did not seem to know what position Ovechkin played.

NHL.com and other various sites still have Ovechkin listed at left wing, the position he has played for most of his career. But Capitals head coach Adam Oates shifted Ovechkin to the right side at the start of this season in an attempt to revitalize the sniper’s scoring touch.

After a slow start, it worked with Ovechkin scoring 24 goals and 41 points in the final two months. However, despite a memo sent out from the Professional Hockey Writers Association at the end of the year to remind everyone of Ovechkin’s position switch, it seems that voters either forgot or did not really pay attention.

Yes, the PHWA is the same people who vote for the norris.

No I don't think they take their NHL awards voting seriously. When they got a memo saying "don't vote Ovechkin as a LW, he played RW this year" enough of them still voted him as a left wing that he was voted the 2nd best LW in the entire NHL.

Thats not a few people ing this up.

Thats a ton of voters who aren't paying attention... aren't doing the research and just don't care.

The fact is there are absolutely absurd results every single year... so no, I don't buy your premise.

[Commandant]

"Is there a stat out there for turnovers per possession of puck? Seriously, I'd like to know"

Not league wide that I've seen... but there was the guy from sport logiq who did it comparing Weber and Subban.

Subban, despite missing 14 games, had 600 more touches of the puck. The difference in turnovers per touch favored Weber by 0.02%

Its all posted earlier in the thread.

But really ask yourself this... does a turnover matter? or does a scoring chance against our team matter? If one defenceman does 5 more turnovers, but recovers, and the other team gets 2 scoring chances off those turnovers.... and another defenceman doesn't turn it over, but doesn't get the puck and therefore the puck never leaves the zone, and the other team gets 3 more scoring chances as a result... which one is better defensively.

Cause that is exactly what we are talking about. Subban despite all the "risky plays" and all the "turnovers" spent considerably less time in his own end, and had considerably less scoring chances against. While some of that is mitigated by zone starts, and quality of players on the ice... even after mitigating for those, Subban is well ahead.

[DON]

Of course when Subban leads the NHL in one category, but isn't a positive one...is not indicative of anything. Holy horseshit Batman, talk about cherry picking.

But why of all the 'elite' players with a ton of turnovers, does Subban lead the way across the NHL every year? Does he handle the puck that much more than any other 'elite' NHLer?

Am sure some goofy theory would explain it; like, the rink stats guys are all out to get him.

[Commandant]

Of course when Subban leads the NHL in one category, but isn't a positive one...is not indicative of anything. Holy horseshit Batman, talk about cherry picking.

But why of all the 'elite' players with a ton of turnovers, does Subban lead the way across the NHL every year? Does he handle the puck that much more than any other 'elite' NHLer?

Am sure some goofy theory would explain it; like, the rink stats guys are all out to get him.

I've argued against using hits, turnovers, and takeaways for years.

When some teams get 50% more of these at home (Montreal always has more giveaways at home, not just subban, the entire team) than they do on the road, its a problem.

When other teams (LA comes to mind) gets 50% more hits at home than the road than at home, its an issue.

In some rinks, bumping into a player is a hit, in others you have to plaster a guy into the boards.

In some rinks, dumping the puck off the glass to centre ice is a giveaway, in some rinks it has to be a tape to tape pass to the opponent.

Its not consistent.

Is it cherry picking when the NHL themselves don't allow these stats to be used in Arbitration hearings (but do allow Corsi and other advanced stats now).

Even the league knows that their own stats are ed....

[Machine of Loving Grace]

The thing is it looks like Price and the rest of the team actually did buy into the system and want to win with it and we're having success with it per past years and the beginning of last year. It really is too bad Subban couldn't get on board with it. I really don't think it has anything to do with being a "robot" or talk like that.

Here's the problem with that.

The best playoff skater for the Habs in the Marc Bergevin era? P.K. Subban.

His performances in the playoffs and carrying the team offence has arguably been more important than Price even.

Take Subban out and Montreal doesn't survive Boston to make it to the ECF. Take Subban out and Montreal loses to Ottawa again.

If he was constantly playing against the coaches wishes but the most successful playoff performer, who is the real problem?

Montreal will only make the playoffs with a healthy Price. With no more Subban, hard to say if they can get through a single round anymore. Who steps up? Weber would have to play better playoff hockey than he ever has in his entire career just to match Subban. And Subban only got Montreal to the ECF.

[Scott462]

In regards to playoff performances I agree that the Boston series Subban was all gold but the very next series against New York I remember him not being so hot, mind you this might be because he left it all against the Bruins. I am not denying that he certainly has his moments in the playoffs.

The point is that I never said that PK does not play with the system Carey did. And playoffs are a funny time it takes random players stepping up at different times and an entire team to put it together to win the cup like Pittsburgh did last year.

Maybe Weber plays the best hockey of his career infront of Price instead of Rinne who unfortunately isn't close to Price in a lot of ways. Ways I think PK will miss over in Nashville not having that elite puck handling goalie to pass him the puck and make that key save when he gaffs off a play where he was trying to do too much.

[Link67]

Ok here is what I know for sure, I am never going to have to watch Weber make a play like THIS, and turn the TV off 10 seconds later and stare blankly at my black screen for another 10 seconds again.

end of story

[Commandant]

Ok here is what I know for sure, I am never going to have to watch Weber make a play like THIS, and turn the TV off 10 seconds later and stare blankly at my black screen for another 10 seconds again.

end of story

Oh so we are cherry picking individual games and mistakes now... what about giving up 5 goals in game 7 of a playoff series? Did Subban ever do that? bad coverage, bad giveaway, going for a hit and missing, losing an edge and giving up a four on one, a bad pinch that failed. Weber made every mistake a defenceman can make, all in the same game.... but i mean, its just one game. So how bad do you judge it.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/watch-everything-that-went-wrong-for-shea-weber-in-game-7/

[Link67]

Oh so we are cherry picking individual games and mistakes now... what about giving up 5 goals in game 7 of a playoff series? Did Subban ever do that? bad coverage, bad giveaway, going for a hit and missing, losing an edge and giving up a four on one, a bad pinch that failed. Weber made every mistake a defenceman can make, all in the same game.... but i mean, its just one game. So how bad do you judge it.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/watch-everything-that-went-wrong-for-shea-weber-in-game-7/

I said a play like this in my post, because Subban has made many individualistic blunders of the sort that numb the brain. Please don't be trying to act like that is the only play of its kind from Subban, there are many and we all know it and have seen it. I could have easily fired in the very next video I saw on the list where he goes for a wonderful skate along the opposing blue line only to lose it after holding on to it for twice as long as he should have and giving Iginla the game on a silver platter, with 3 minutes to go in a tie game to boot.

So once again, i'll reiterate my previous sentiment, I will not have to watch Weber make a play like it, you can roll the stat red carpet for Weber's nightmare game but no where will you find him making a play like the one I showed or the other 3 i could have showed.

[Commandant]

1 goal is 1 goal.... do i care if Weber went for a hit, missed and the guy scored? or if Subban fell losing an edge and gave up a goal?

Both are mistakes, both are 1 goal against... how highlight reel worthy it is or it isn't shouldn't matter.

What should matter is whether at the end of trying 100 plays, how many goals to the positive are you instead of negative. Cause I'm willing to live with a screwup leading to a goal against, if i know he'll score more than screw up.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This thread has run in circles. Commandant has done a great job of patiently reiterating the basic case for why this was a dubious trade.

IF Weber goes on to play at his absolute career peak over most of the duration of his contract, while Subban plays like he did last season over the duration of his contact, then the trade is a win.

IF both players peak for the duration of the contracts, it's a saw-off.

IF Subban plays like he's normally done over his career and Weber plays like the player whose decline was being noted even prior to the trade, then we lose.

IF Subban cranks it up a notch, we lose massively, since he is already a superior overall player to Weber, notwithstanding Weber's superiority in specific areas.

If Weber declines, we automatically lose - and again, massively, since we're stuck with his idiotic contract.

I'm not buying the "system" argument, because that means we traded the most talented Hab since Guy Lafleur in order to fit "the system" of a generic, average-quality NHL coach. That's dumb with a capital D.

[illWill]

"So you're saying that secondary assists are equally as important when compiling point totals? And to answer your question, yes, I do think that the voters actually do research and put actual thought into their vote. This is their livelihood and they are basically the best at what they do. He was among the league leaders in points by a dman when he went down and yet still only received two stinking 4th place votes, while playing 82% of the season. Connor McDavid only played 54% of the season and was still a finalist for the Calder"

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/alex-ovechkin-named-to-all-star-team-twice-because-reading-is-hard

Yes, the PHWA is the same people who vote for the norris.

No I don't think they take their NHL awards voting seriously. When they got a memo saying "don't vote Ovechkin as a LW, he played RW this year" enough of them still voted him as a left wing that he was voted the 2nd best LW in the entire NHL.

Thats not a few people ######ing this up.

Thats a ton of voters who aren't paying attention... aren't doing the research and just don't care.

The fact is there are absolutely absurd results every single year... so no, I don't buy your premise.

Saying some members of a voting committee didn't read an email is a bit different than judging a player on his on ice performance. Do you honestly think they seen the memo but didn't care?

Regardless, either way the Norris votes count or they don't. You can't lobby for Subban by saying he won a Norris trophy but in the same breath say that Weber's Norris votes don't count.

"Is there a stat out there for turnovers per possession of puck? Seriously, I'd like to know"

Not league wide that I've seen... but there was the guy from sport logiq who did it comparing Weber and Subban.

Subban, despite missing 14 games, had 600 more touches of the puck. The difference in turnovers per touch favored Weber by 0.02%

Its all posted earlier in the thread.

But really ask yourself this... does a turnover matter? or does a scoring chance against our team matter? If one defenceman does 5 more turnovers, but recovers, and the other team gets 2 scoring chances off those turnovers.... and another defenceman doesn't turn it over, but doesn't get the puck and therefore the puck never leaves the zone, and the other team gets 3 more scoring chances as a result... which one is better defensively.

Cause that is exactly what we are talking about. Subban despite all the "risky plays" and all the "turnovers" spent considerably less time in his own end, and had considerably less scoring chances against. While some of that is mitigated by zone starts, and quality of players on the ice... even after mitigating for those, Subban is well ahead.

I'd love to see the stats on that. Not to prove my point but for curiosity. Yes, logic dictates that the more a player touches a puck the more he will turn it over. But at what percentage of the time? Why does Subban have such a reputation among great hockey minds for being "risky" and turning it over? You said that Weber turns it over less percentage wise already, so it'd be great to know where Subban stacks up against the "elite".

[Link67]

This thread has run in circles. Commandant has done a great job of patiently reiterating the basic case for why this was a dubious trade.

IF Weber goes on to play at his absolute career peak over most of the duration of his contract, while Subban plays like he did last season over the duration of his contact, then the trade is a win.

IF both players peak for the duration of the contracts, it's a saw-off.

IF Subban plays like he's normally done over his career and Weber plays like the player whose decline was being noted even prior to the trade, then we lose.

IF Subban cranks it up a notch, we lose massively, since he is already a superior overall player to Weber, notwithstanding Weber's superiority in specific areas.

If Weber declines, we automatically lose - and again, massively, since we're stuck with his idiotic contract.

I'm not buying the "system" argument, because that means we traded the most talented Hab since Guy Lafleur in order to fit "the system" of a generic, average-quality NHL coach. That's dumb with a capital D.

see here is what bothers the crap out of me in this thread, we have a clear line of folks in this thread who are going above and beyond to glorify Subban and just throwing everything Weber brings to the table in a buzzsaw to twist and turn this whole debate into "it is impossible to win this trade because Subban is great and Weber is finished, only devine intervention can save us now".

Really? the most talented hab since Lafleur? How about Roy? Raw talent how about Kovalev? heck maybe even Price is more talented since he is maybe the best player in the world at his position? Subban is the most popular player since Lafleur of this there is no doubt, but talent? There have been more talented players here who have accomplished just as much if not more than he has already and for the sake of this argument you are sweeping them under the rug.

As far as Idiotic contracts go Subban's was no closer to being out of the idiotic zone than Weber's, in fact the Eliotte Freidman article claims Edmonton just about ran away from the negotiating table with us because of it.

And this whole argument I keep seeing that Subban is gone because his style does not fit Therrien, we made changes to make our average coach happy and in doing so traded away the great one. Understand this folks, aside from all our opinions on Therrien and Bergevin there is something much more absolute than any of our expertise on the subject...

Tom Renney, Doug Armstrong, Rob Blake, Ken Holland, Bob Murray, Mike Babcock, Claude Julien, Joel Quenneville, Barry Trotz

that my friends, is the list of well respected Hockey Guys, who like Therrien, Do not believe in the way Subban plays the game. That is a list of guys who believe Weber's style of hockey helps you win more games than Subban's style. I don't need to really explain how all of us take a back seat to the opinion of a list of that magnitude do I? These guys don't have an agenda, they don't have a secret allegiance they can't shake, they spend hours together making objective decisions using their experience and knowledge. All I am asking, begging even, is that we look at those names, all of them carefully, and ask yourselves does a panel of guys like that, really make a blatant wrong choice of this magnitude? Is the notion that this trade is not even close to lopsided kicking in yet? Maybe even starting to look like we may have slightly won?

[Trizzak]

Ok here is what I know for sure, I am never going to have to watch Weber make a play like

, and turn the TV off 10 seconds later and stare blankly at my black screen for another 10 seconds again.

end of story

Yeah, you'll see a lot more boring defensive mistakes from Weber that lead to goals, but at least it won't be obviously embarrassing in the highlight reels... just more constant.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

see here is what bothers the crap out of me in this thread, we have a clear line of folks in this thread who are going above and beyond to glorify Subban and just throwing everything Weber brings to the table in a buzzsaw to twist and turn this whole debate into "it is impossible to win this trade because Subban is great and Weber is finished, only devine intervention can save us now".

Really? the most talented hab since Lafleur? How about Roy? Raw talent how about Kovalev? heck maybe even Price is more talented since he is maybe the best player in the world at his position? Subban is the most popular player since Lafleur of this there is no doubt, but talent? There have been more talented players here who have accomplished just as much if not more than he has already and for the sake of this argument you are sweeping them under the rug.

As far as Idiotic contracts go Subban's was no closer to being out of the idiotic zone than Weber's, in fact the Eliotte Freidman article claims Edmonton just about ran away from the negotiating table with us because of it.

And this whole argument I keep seeing that Subban is gone because his style does not fit Therrien, we made changes to make our average coach happy and in doing so traded away the great one. Understand this folks, aside from all our opinions on Therrien and Bergevin there is something much more absolute than any of our expertise on the subject...

Tom Renney, Doug Armstrong, Rob Blake, Ken Holland, Bob Murray, Mike Babcock, Claude Julien, Joel Quenneville, Barry Trotz

that my friends, is the list of well respected Hockey Guys, who like Therrien, Do not believe in the way Subban plays the game. That is a list of guys who believe Weber's style of hockey helps you win more games than Subban's style. I don't need to really explain how all of us take a back seat to the opinion of a list of that magnitude do I? These guys don't have an agenda, they don't have a secret allegiance they can't shake, they spend hours together making objective decisions using their experience and knowledge. All I am asking, begging even, is that we look at those names, all of them carefully, and ask yourselves does a panel of guys like that, really make a blatant wrong choice of this magnitude? Is the notion that this trade is not even close to lopsided kicking in yet? Maybe even starting to look like we may have slightly won?

Actually, the very first scenario on my list had us winning the trade. I also said Weber is better than Subban in specific areas of the game (as I've said all along).

As for 'most talented player,' I should have said 'most talented position player,' i.e., non-goalie. If you want to say Kovalev brought more to the table than Subban, be my guest. Personally I think he leaves Kovalev choking in the dust.

In terms of contract, Weber is on the book for an $8 mil cap hit until he's 41. By definition that makes it a significantly stupider contract than Subban's. I understand that we might be able to move Weber to some team looking to meet the cap floor after he loses a step. I also understand that we might not (see Gomez, Scott). So - as in my first scenario in that post above - we'd better hope that Weber doesn't lose a step at all over the next five or six years. Especially given that the game keeps getting faster.

If you think Therrien is one of the small number of elite coaches, hey, you're welcome to that opinion. I've always said he's part of an interchangeable mass of adequate NHL coaches, and see no reason to change that view.

The last part of your post basically asks who has a better reputation among old-school hockey insiders: Subban or Weber. The question answers itself, since Subban was under attack from the moment he entered the league for being an insufficiently deferential, uppity spectacular player. Old, tough codgers like Weber are always beloved of the 'old school' crowd - the same kinds of guys that put Adam Foote on the Turin Olympic team. (And no, I'm not comparing Weber to Foote, he's far better than that).

[Link67]

Therrien is not part of the Elite, I'm simply showing that in this instance, his opinion is the same as some of the elite hockey minds in this sport, to just chalk that aside as meaningless is nothing short of biased to me.

[Link67]

Yeah, you'll see a lot more boring defensive mistakes from Weber that lead to goals, but at least it won't be obviously embarrassing in the highlight reels... just more constant.

and i'm sure you know this by the multitude of Nashville games you have watched start to finish over the course of the last 10 years I suppose?

[DON]

This thread has run in circles. Commandant has done a great job of patiently reiterating the basic case for why this was a dubious trade.

IF Weber goes on to play at his absolute career peak over most of the duration of his contract, while Subban plays like he did last season over the duration of his contact, then the trade is a win.

IF both players peak for the duration of the contracts, it's a saw-off.

IF Subban plays like he's normally done over his career and Weber plays like the player whose decline was being noted even prior to the trade, then we lose.

IF Subban cranks it up a notch, we lose massively, since he is already a superior overall player to Weber, notwithstanding Weber's superiority in specific areas.

If Weber declines, we automatically lose - and again, massively, since we're stuck with his idiotic contract.

I'm not buying the "system" argument, because that means we traded the most talented Hab since Guy Lafleur in order to fit "the system" of a generic, average-quality NHL coach. That's dumb with a capital D.

Come on Eeyore, you forgot any scenario that Habs win the cup.

[Commandant]

Saying some members of a voting committee didn't read an email is a bit different than judging a player on his on ice performance. Do you honestly think they seen the memo but didn't care?

Regardless, either way the Norris votes count or they don't. You can't lobby for Subban by saying he won a Norris trophy but in the same breath say that Weber's Norris votes don't count.

I'd love to see the stats on that. Not to prove my point but for curiosity. Yes, logic dictates that the more a player touches a puck the more he will turn it over. But at what percentage of the time? Why does Subban have such a reputation among great hockey minds for being "risky" and turning it over? You said that Weber turns it over less percentage wise already, so it'd be great to know where Subban stacks up against the "elite".

It wasn't "some members not reading an email"

it was

a) not knowing enough about the player who won the hart trophy that season to know he had changed positions.

b) not doing the research on the issue before making their votes.

And it wasn't "some members"

it was a large enough number of members, that he accumulated enough votes to be named the second best Left Wing in the entire league. Thats not a small number of people ing up... thats a significant number of people.

So you tell me they are going to take the time to figure out if assists are primary or secondary, and they can't even check what position the NHL MVP played for the entire season?

Yeah, I'm not buying this good research part.... sure they have the skills, but I'm not buying they take the voting seriously.

[Commandant]

see here is what bothers the crap out of me in this thread, we have a clear line of folks in this thread who are going above and beyond to glorify Subban and just throwing everything Weber brings to the table in a buzzsaw to twist and turn this whole debate into "it is impossible to win this trade because Subban is great and Weber is finished, only devine intervention can save us now".

Really? the most talented hab since Lafleur? How about Roy? Raw talent how about Kovalev? heck maybe even Price is more talented since he is maybe the best player in the world at his position? Subban is the most popular player since Lafleur of this there is no doubt, but talent? There have been more talented players here who have accomplished just as much if not more than he has already and for the sake of this argument you are sweeping them under the rug.

As far as Idiotic contracts go Subban's was no closer to being out of the idiotic zone than Weber's, in fact the Eliotte Freidman article claims Edmonton just about ran away from the negotiating table with us because of it.

And this whole argument I keep seeing that Subban is gone because his style does not fit Therrien, we made changes to make our average coach happy and in doing so traded away the great one. Understand this folks, aside from all our opinions on Therrien and Bergevin there is something much more absolute than any of our expertise on the subject...

Tom Renney, Doug Armstrong, Rob Blake, Ken Holland, Bob Murray, Mike Babcock, Claude Julien, Joel Quenneville, Barry Trotz

that my friends, is the list of well respected Hockey Guys, who like Therrien, Do not believe in the way Subban plays the game. That is a list of guys who believe Weber's style of hockey helps you win more games than Subban's style. I don't need to really explain how all of us take a back seat to the opinion of a list of that magnitude do I? These guys don't have an agenda, they don't have a secret allegiance they can't shake, they spend hours together making objective decisions using their experience and knowledge. All I am asking, begging even, is that we look at those names, all of them carefully, and ask yourselves does a panel of guys like that, really make a blatant wrong choice of this magnitude? Is the notion that this trade is not even close to lopsided kicking in yet? Maybe even starting to look like we may have slightly won?

They spent hours in a room with Subban's GM, and Subban's GM didn't defend his own player.

Its human nature to say... hey this guy, who is my peer, sees Subban 82 games, 180 days a year, and he isn't supporting him. there is something there I'm not seeing. But lets forget that Bergevin wasn't in there. Lets cherry pick the guys in the room and not say that he had any influence.

And of course... team Canada has always been a room full of well respected hockey guys. Rooms full of well respected hockey guys selecting team canada...

picked Kris Draper and todd Bertuzzi over an 18-year-old Crosby on international ice.

Took Chris Kunitz last olympics

took Rob Zamuner over Ron Francis

blackballed Yzerman off the team when he was the third leading scoring in the NHL.

thought Bill Ranford was better an Patrick Roy

They may not be the same management team as today, but they were a room full of people who were just as respected on the day of those decisions, as the room is today.

[Commandant]

and i'm sure you know this by the multitude of Nashville games you have watched start to finish over the course of the last 10 years I suppose?

don't need to see them over 4 years... those mistakes are plain for all to see over the last four, as he has steadily increased the number of scoring chances given up.