Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[Commandant]

Like I've said before, Beaulieu is the X factor in this trade

I like Beaulieu, but I'm 99% sure that Josi is better than Beaulieu.

[Commandant]

Come on man, you really trying to say that a 4 year experienced GM is controlling a room full of guys like that? Subban is an elite talent, but above talent comes many aspects in hockey, and in those aspects they don't like what they see. There is no way to twist that, no way to look past it. Bergevin is a supporting cast member here, he knows it and so should you, he is there to throw some 2 cents around but he is certainly not going to be the guy to sway a major decision like leaving Subban off the squad. There are far more experienced and knowledgeable guys in that room that even he respects enough to make those kinds of calls.

Say what you will of other groups picking these teams, but this group has been excellent for the better part of a decade now, Ken Holland, Bob Murray, and Doug Armstrong have all masterfully built strong teams and have hockey I.Q for days, they are all in the top 5 of their profession hands down. Babcock, Quenville, Trotz, and even our old pal Julien have some of the longest reigns as coaches and coached teams to excellence for years, they see how a game is structured at an elite level, that quite frankly, no spreadsheet or amount of games we watch on our couch can make up for. Between these 7 guys alone, if they were able to agree that Subban does not fit on their team, but Weber is one of the first guys they pick, i'm opening my eyes wide and tuning my ears, because these guys CANNOT be ignored on the matter.

Now i'm going to make something clear, i've done it a few times in this thread already but i'll do it once more. I was sad when this trade was announced because we lost PK, as a fan of this team, I loved having an elite level d-man of his caliber on the ice. With that said, In my eyes, Weber is far from finished, he is far from junk, and he is currently, one of the top d-men in this league. The way some have treated him in this thread is really what fuels me to even continue to beat this dead horse, We traded Subban not for a piece of crap, but for another Elite d-man, who some of the greatest hockey minds in this league agree holds more value to a team than Subban does. Is that not what we are supposed to do here? Build a team? Every page there is almost always a comment of some sort trying to say Weber is going to be a bum within 3 or 4 years, so how does a guy who has been at the same elite level as a guy like Chara for several seasons now, barely had any injuries that could slow him down in the near future suddenly become useless in 3 years? That doesn't smell like Biased, nonobjective opinions to continue to twist the main plot in here to anyone? that we traded the Great PK Subban for Master Splinter?? For god sakes Andrei Markov, who has been a very good d-man his whole career, suffered back to back major knee injuries in his mid 30s still kept his game in top line form until last season, at the age of 37. Zdeno Chara finally showed he was no longer elite last season, at the age of 39. is it really insane to think Weber could at least do what those guys did? If Weber's first season in Montreal where we start thinking "eeehhhh this is probably the begining of the end" as we just did with Markov last season, is at the age of 38 then we get 7 awesome years of all the great things this guy brings to the table, F'n enjoy it, Christ.

Who said WEber was a piece of crap?

Since when is saying that Subban is better than Weber is bashing Weber?

Who said he'd be useless in 3 years?

Who said he's a bum?

Where are you getting this? Cause none of this was ever said.

Sure those would be biased opinions, but since none of them were ever actually said, I don't understand the issue.

The only thing that I (and many others have said) is that Weber is not as good as Subban.... i guess this is what qualifies as bashing now? what qualifies as being below the mendoza line of defencemen?

[Scott462]

Personally I think this thread has divulged into a battle of egos and strictly not wanting to be proven wrong from a certain position to look at things objectively from both sides of the argument. I realized this earlier and chose to leave it alone.

I have always kept true to the fact that I think both players are elite D men that have completely different styles and have been used in completely different ways by their teams to relying strictly on numbers. I'm not a fan of trusting people's opinions when they deal in absolutes and say things like "Subban is just better than Weber". I just can't take it seriously.

[Guest Stogey24]

what this guy said

Link, I honestly don't think anyone has trashed Weber on this thread. Maybe some minor stuff early on about his age out of frustration. But In fact I think what has been mostly said is that Weber will likely give us 3-4 years of elite or near elite play. But then he'll be 35 and noticeably declining (or at least this is reasonable prediction).

Yes both sides are beating a dead horse. Yes this thread is circular. But I've seen so well worded, reasonable and supported arguments from posters like commandant, MOLG and Chicoutimi Cucumber that I have a hard time seeing how people disagree with the conclusions. I'm not saying everyone has to dislike the trade, but I am saying it seems like many supporting the trade are in blatant denial or ignoring facts at times.

I'll reiterate, we have ALL agreed that Shea Weber is elite right now. We also seem to all concede that this trade COULD make the team better in the short term. But it seems that people in favour of the trade are unwilling to objectively look at the negative aspects of it, and if anything, I see FAR more Subban bashing than Weber bashing. There's so many backhand comments of Subban's character in the thread it's ridiculous.

I feel you're right that people are biased when looking at this trade, and to an extent from both sides, but I think it's more biased in the opposite direction of what you think. Biased FOR Weber. Do you think Any Habs fan wants this to be a bad trade? Clearly no. But it's like some habs fans are afraid to admit we very very likely lost this trade.

[Commandant]

Are they different? Of course

Are there areas that Weber is better? Again, yes.

Is it still dealing in absolutes to still say that I believe Subban is a better player overall?

I don't know why having that opinion is something that is so unfair to do.

There are many players who are faster skaters, or harder shooters, or more physical than Sidney Crosby. Does that mean we can't have an opinion that Crosby is a better overall player than those guys, cause they beat him in one or two categories?

[Scott462]

That's not unfair man, thats your opinion and I respect that.

[DON]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Habs-Talk/Price-Speaks-by-Andrew-Saadalla/219/79021

just a bit on Price's comments.

[Meller93]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Habs-Talk/Price-Speaks-by-Andrew-Saadalla/219/79021

just a bit on Price's comments.

Price and the Canadian management obviously know what they're doing, at least to a certain extent. They have some plan and they want to play by it. Without reservation I'll say they do a far better job putting together a team than I ever could.

Buuuuut. I hate this tinge of bending to authority. Just because the Canadian brass does it doesn't make it right. Just cause Price said something doesn't make it right. Not questioning a decision is what leads to mistakes. We question our government, we question religion, we question just about everything in the world. I think we should be questioning the decisions made by sports authorities as well no? They make mistakes. They get fired. I feel quite strongly they aren't taking advantage of a top defensive talent, and that is a mistake.

[Link67]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Habs-Talk/Price-Speaks-by-Andrew-Saadalla/219/79021

just a bit on Price's comments.

Price is adding himself to a growing list of Respected NHL players, Coaches, and Managers who believe Shea Weber is the better player for a team.

But I can tell you this is going to get swatted out of the air quickly because around here the only things that matter in this debate are Age and Stats. Certainly not the opinion of those who are adding themselves to the list that all share the same opinion on the players involved.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Price is adding himself to a growing list of Respected NHL players, Coaches, and Managers who believe Shea Weber is the better player for a team.

Price is an old friend of Shea's. I said way back when the trade first happened that Price would be likely fine with it because he knows Weber well.

Price is a great company man. He didn't say a word when Josh Gorges, who was his best friend on the Habs, got dealt away.

[Commandant]

Price and the Canadian management obviously know what they're doing, at least to a certain extent. They have some plan and they want to play by it. Without reservation I'll say they do a far better job putting together a team than I ever could.

Buuuuut. I hate this tinge of bending to authority. Just because the Canadian brass does it doesn't make it right. Just cause Price said something doesn't make it right. Not questioning a decision is what leads to mistakes. We question our government, we question religion, we question just about everything in the world. I think we should be questioning the decisions made by sports authorities as well no? They make mistakes. They get fired. I feel quite strongly they aren't taking advantage of a top defensive talent, and that is a mistake.

Exactly...

And what would be the point of the message board if we were never able to question management or the players.

Its also worth keeping in mind two things

1) Weber and Price are apparently very good friends off ice and trained together in summers, even before the trade.

2) Did you really think price was going to rip management for the trade, even if he wasn't friends with Weber? Publically? No. Even if price felt differently (and I'm not saying he does) he wouldn't say it publically.

[illWill]

1) For the stats i used... again giveaways and takeaways are not allowed to be used in NHL arbitration; but possession stats are. Why? Cause even the freaking league and the NHLPA know those stats are flawed. And if you check my post history, I've said the same about those stats long before this trade was ever made.

You forgot to mention more goals, less penalty minutes, more efficient shooter, more hits, more blocks, on top of the more takeaways and less giveaways. What is it again that Subban is way better at? Assists and all the analytics?

2) "At the first of this thread I was pissed off about the deal, and I still am upset that PK won't be around to watch. However, the more I learn about Weber and the trade, the more excited I am to get the season going. "

So when you had actually watched games, you didn't like the trade. Now, with no new evidence, and no new games being played you love it. I'm sure the organization loves that you are a sheep, drinking their koolaid.

I spent a lot of free time reading about and watching clips of Weber this summer. I don't need new evidence to understand what has happened up until this point. Not sure how that concept is hard to grasp

3) as for your little paraphrasing.. None of those I have said. And DO NOT EVER put words in my mouth.... thats being an asshole..... you want to quote me, quote me... but don't change my words slightly to make them more in your favor.

Changing what i wrote, into what you want it to say is a huge asshole move, and I'm done discussing with you if that's all you have. Welcome to my ignore list.

I'd love to make it to your ignore list, it'd be nice discussing opinions with fellow Habs fans rather than be told some egotistical opinion that is passed on as fact

Yeah, there's really nothing left to say until these two guys get back on the ice. We've reached a critical mass.

You are correct. However we have to wait a bit longer for both to get back on the ice as one of them is going to be a leader for team Canada against all the best players in the world, while the other one will be somewhere building his brand

[Commandant]

Price is adding himself to a growing list of Respected NHL players, Coaches, and Managers who believe Shea Weber is the better player for a team.

But I can tell you this is going to get swatted out of the air quickly because around here the only things that matter in this debate are Age and Stats. Certainly not the opinion of those who are adding themselves to the list that all share the same opinion on the players involved.

Where does David Poile stand in this list of respected NHL managers?

the man who has acquired.... Rod Langway, Scott Stevens, Kevin Hatcher, Sergei Gonchar, Calle Johanssen, Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, Kimmo Timmonen, Seth Jones, Kevin Klein, Roman Josi, and numerous other quality dmen in the last 30 years stand? Cause he wanted Subban.

Does his opinion matter? Does it fall under the category of Age and Stats?

What about the numerous other former players and management who said Subban is better, do we only present the guys who favor Weber?

[Link67]

Price and the Canadian management obviously know what they're doing, at least to a certain extent. They have some plan and they want to play by it. Without reservation I'll say they do a far better job putting together a team than I ever could.

Buuuuut. I hate this tinge of bending to authority. Just because the Canadian brass does it doesn't make it right. Just cause Price said something doesn't make it right. Not questioning a decision is what leads to mistakes. We question our government, we question religion, we question just about everything in the world. I think we should be questioning the decisions made by sports authorities as well no? They make mistakes. They get fired. I feel quite strongly they aren't taking advantage of a top defensive talent, and that is a mistake.

I agree, questioning things is healthy, and sometimes necessary.

in this case though, when the group you are talking about comprises of Ken Holland, Doug Armstrong, Mike Babcock, Joel Quenville, Barry Trotz, Claude Julien, Bob Murray, Rob Blake, Carey Price, Jonathan Toews. And all of them agree its Weber over Subban, is it not time to look in the mirror and question if you are wrong?

[Commandant]

I agree, questioning things is healthy, and sometimes necessary.

in this case though, when the group you are talking about comprises of Ken Holland, Doug Armstrong, Mike Babcock, Joel Quenville, Barry Trotz, Claude Julien, Bob Murray, Rob Blake, Carey Price, Jonathan Toews. And all of them agree its Weber over Subban, is it not time to look in the mirror and question if you are wrong?

And a number of others have said montreal got fleeced, but we won't talk about them.... cause while current hockey guys won't (And haven't gone on record on the deal) a number of former hockey guys, now analysts, claim monteal was fleeced.

Of your list.... how do all those people agree it was weber over subban... cause team canada picked him that means every person in the room supported the decision? you were there and there were no dissenting opinions? Really? Show me the quote from Armstrong or Quenneville or Julien or Murray or any of them that says Weber is better.

only one of your list has even said that, Carey Price.

Every other player has either said nothing, or said nice things about Weber without comparing the two.

Once again you put words into people's mouths... saying Subban is better than Weber is bashing weber... saying something nice about weber without mentioning subban is now Mike Babcock saying that the Habs won the deal.

When you have to twist words into things that weren't actually said, your argument must really suck.

[Link67]

Where does David Poile stand in this list of respected NHL managers?

the man who has acquired.... Rod Langway, Scott Stevens, Kevin Hatcher, Sergei Gonchar, Calle Johanssen, Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, Kimmo Timmonen, Seth Jones, Kevin Klein, Roman Josi, and numerous other quality dmen in the last 30 years stand? Cause he wanted Subban.

Does his opinion matter? Does it fall under the category of Age and Stats?

What about the numerous other former players and management who said Subban is better, do we only present the guys who favor Weber?

Poile does not fall in their category no sorry, those men are champions, and have built teams that stay near the top for years at a time, and if you present me a player who spoke about this trade that is as respected as Price or Toews than yes he would fall in the category.

[Commandant]

Poile does not fall in their category no sorry, those men are champions, and have built teams that stay near the top for years at a time, and if you present me a player who spoke about this trade that is as respected as Price or Toews than yes he would fall in the category.

Show me where Toews said Weber was better than Subban?

Show me where Ken Holland said it?

Mike Babcock?

any of those players?

Price is pretty much the only one... a guy who is best friends with Weber, and who has never publically said a bad word about any move his team has made.

Great evidence there.

[Meller93]

I agree, questioning things is healthy, and sometimes necessary.

in this case though, when the group you are talking about comprises of Ken Holland, Doug Armstrong, Mike Babcock, Joel Quenville, Barry Trotz, Claude Julien, Bob Murray, Rob Blake, Carey Price, Jonathan Toews. And all of them agree its Weber over Subban, is it not time to look in the mirror and question if you are wrong?

Like I said, they'd do a better job than I could, and they're obviously sticking by some plan. Subban doesn't work for it apparently.

But seriously it's not all about Subban. Bouwmeester over Subban AND Letang seems like an awful reach of you ask me.

Is that not at least questionable..?

[Commandant]

Like I said, they'd do a better job than I could, and they're obviously sticking by some plan. Subban doesn't work for it apparently.

But seriously it's not all about Subban. Bouwmeester over Subban AND Letang seems like an awful reach of you ask me.

Is that not at least questionable..?

I'm sure itw was a 100% unanimous decision and no one in the GM room argued differently. they all think Bouwmeester is better than Subban.

[Link67]

And a number of others have said montreal got fleeced, but we won't talk about them.... cause while current hockey guys won't (And haven't gone on record on the deal) a number of former hockey guys, now analysts, claim monteal was fleeced.

Of your list.... how do all those people agree it was weber over subban... cause team canada picked him that means every person in the room supported the decision? you were there and there were no dissenting opinions? Really? Show me the quote from Armstrong or Quenneville or Julien or Murray or any of them that says Weber is better.

only one of your list has even said that, Carey Price.

Every other player has either said nothing, or said nice things about Weber without comparing the two.

Once again you put words into people's mouths... saying Subban is better than Weber is bashing weber... saying something nice about weber without mentioning subban is now Mike Babcock saying that the Habs won the deal.

When you have to twist words into things that weren't actually said, your argument must really suck.

Geez are you that much of a stat guy that we need freakin transcripts of conversations held in a room or the point is moot?

Use your imagination a little, read between the lines, heck i'll make it easier for you, it was AT LEAST a majority vote, so that means at least 5 of those guys thought Weber was the better guy to have on the team. Does that make it any less startling? pick any of those 5 guys you want and ask yourself these 5 people believe Weber is the better guy for a team, but they are all wrong and I am right? No doubt about it? Doesn't even make you question it?

[Link67]

Like I said, they'd do a better job than I could, and they're obviously sticking by some plan. Subban doesn't work for it apparently.

But seriously it's not all about Subban. Bouwmeester over Subban AND Letang seems like an awful reach of you ask me.

Is that not at least questionable..?

From a talent perspective it is not even close, Subban is more talented than everyone on that D besides Doughty.

But from a perspective of fit, structure, team building, these guys just don't seem to like how Subban does things, its as simple as that really. If they did he would have been on the team 5 defensemen ago.

[Meller93]

From a talent perspective it is not even close, Subban is more talented than everyone on that D besides Doughty.

But from a perspective of fit, structure, team building, these guys just don't seem to like how Subban does things, its as simple as that really. If they did he would have been on the team 5 defensemen ago.

Yes and I agree with that. It just seems to me like you shouldn't be wasting a talent like that. But I guess if the system is THAT much better.. We'll leave the Subban's and Letangs at home.

Just seems weird to me. I'm of the mind frame that you change the system to accommodate the players, not change the players to accommodate the system.

[Commandant]

Geez are you that much of a stat guy that we need freakin transcripts of conversations held in a room or the point is moot?

Use your imagination a little, read between the lines, heck i'll make it easier for you, it was AT LEAST a majority vote, so that means at least 5 of those guys thought Weber was the better guy to have on the team. Does that make it any less startling? pick any of those 5 guys you want and ask yourself these 5 people believe Weber is the better guy for a team, but they are all wrong and I am right? No doubt about it? Doesn't even make you question it?

Yes, lets read between the lines and assume these people said things that they never said..... oh and things that just happen to support a narrative your pushing

And Team Canada is always selected by a group of the best and most respected people in the hockey world at the time of the selection. All the way back to 1972, the best GMs have been assembled and given this task.... over and over mistakes have been made, so yes, lets believe this time they can't be questioned.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

They also think Jay Bouwmeester is better than Subban or Letang.

[Commandant]

They also think Jay Bouwmeester is better than Subban or Letang.

So is Jake Muzzin