Which Free Agent Would You Sign?

[PB]

Easy guys. I didn't say he sucks, just not THAT good.

Last year was a career year for Arnott. By far his best since the first season in the NHL and Ribs was made expendable by Pleks and Higgins (both centres playing the wing) so that is a crock.

Looking over his career numbers ( on a fantastic team with huge talent beside him don't forget) he averages around 50 points per season.

Big Deal!

Is this a case of him being able to help the habs greatly or a case of him being the only option so we make him sound/seem better then he really is (like we do with others ala Lecavalier, Huet, etc)?

Identifying Arnott as the most likely UFA the CH might be interested in getting this summer is not based on

any hyperbolistic way of thinking but on good overall assessment of the situation.

Maybe you could tell us what is your favorite options on what Gainey ought to do this summer to make his

team a more competitive one next season ?

[Habitforming]

Identifying Arnott as the most likely UFA the CH might be interested in getting this summer is not based on

any hyperbolistic way of thinking but on good overall assessment of the situation.

Maybe you could tell us what is your favorite options on what Gainey ought to do this summer to make his

team a more competitive one next season ?

For the options that are out there in the UFA market at the centre position I would choose to stand pat and sit on my hands.

Naturally if a scoring centre could be had via trade then by all means do the deal.

There is no way, NO WAY, that Jason Arnott is worth $5M or more for a 50 point player. (644 career points divided by 12 seasons = 53.66 per season)

To me Arnott and Robert Lang are the same player in all areas except age ( 4 years difference ) At best he is worth $3M - $3.5 and no more.

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

For the options that are out there in the UFA market at the centre position I would choose to stand pat and sit on my hands.

Naturally if a scoring centre could be had via trade then by all means do the deal.

There is no way, NO WAY, that Jason Arnott is worth $5M or more for a 50 point player. (644 career points divided by 12 seasons = 53.66 per season)

To me Arnott and Robert Lang are the same player in all areas except age ( 4 years difference ) At best he is worth $3M - $3.5 and no more.

Arnott and Lang are the same I guess you never really saw them play to say such a thing. Similar size and stats on paper don't mean that they're the same.

Divide the pts per game played, not seasons and you will get (644/824) 0.78 pts/game, so 64 pts per season. And that was in the low scoring trapped NHL and with many seasons in Edmonton with not so great talent on his line. You forget many things in your analysis.

Standing path for what? There won't be superstar centers available next year either. Good centers are one of the hottest and rarest commodity in the NHL, grab one if you can is the way to go. Teams are all keeping their good centers, most are all resigned before hitting the UFA market (Lecavalier, Thornton, Richards, Jokinen, etc.) Arnott is better then Koivu and we are paying him 4.75M$....don't have a problem giving him 4.5 to 5M$. The cap will increase again next year by another 4 millions probably. In a 47M$ cap system, paying a center like Arnott 5M$ is not a problem. Max salaries will be about 9M$ in 2 years, 5M$ for Arnott is fine with me.

Keeping Ribs is the worst thing that could happen to the Habs this year.

[jetsniper]

I'm gonna agree with KTC here, no way are Arnott and Lang the same (and since they're with Dallas and Detroit, I've seen enough of them to last a lifetime).

Lang is shifty playmaker with good speed while Arnott is a banger, in-your-face down and dirty center. A good two way player who can match Lang's speed and still bring it offensively. In terms of who I'd want on my team, Arnott is leaps ahead of Lang, he's also a clutch guy. Don't forget who scored in OT of Game 6 to give New Jersey their second cup.

[alexstream]

I'm gonna agree with KTC here, no way are Arnott and Lang the same (and since they're Dallas and Detroit, I've seen enough of them to last a lifetime).

Lang is shifty playmaker with good speed while Arnott is a banger, if-your-face down and dirty center. A good two way player who can match Lang's speed and still bring it offensively. In terms of who I'd want on my team, Arnott is leaps ahead of Lang, he's also a clutch guy. Don't forget who scored in OT of Game 6 to give New Jersey their second cup.

exactly what the doctor ordered, and I've glimpsed 2-3 Dallas games over the years where I couldn't stop watching the game (although I had no interest in the score) because Arnott was out there... ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Arnott, IMO is a Steve Begin... WITH talent!! (although it can be said that Begin is more consistent in his efforts)

[Habitforming]

Arnott and Lang are the same I guess you never really saw them play to say such a thing. Similar size and stats on paper don't mean that they're the same.

Divide the pts per game played, not seasons and you will get (644/824) 0.78 pts/game, so 64 pts per season. And that was in the low scoring trapped NHL and with many seasons in Edmonton with not so great talent on his line. You forget many things in your analysis.

Standing path for what? There won't be superstar centers available next year either. Good centers are one of the hottest and rarest commodity in the NHL, grab one if you can is the way to go. Teams are all keeping their good centers, most are all resigned before hitting the UFA market (Lecavalier, Thornton, Richards, Jokinen, etc.) Arnott is better then Koivu and we are paying him 4.75M$....don't have a problem giving him 4.5 to 5M$. The cap will increase again next year by another 4 millions probably. In a 47M$ cap system, paying a center like Arnott 5M$ is not a problem. Max salaries will be about 9M$ in 2 years, 5M$ for Arnott is fine with me.

Keeping Ribs is the worst thing that could happen to the Habs this year.

My God. The comparison between Lang and Arnott is by production for their team, not in playing styles

Dividing the points per game played is a way of curbing stats to fit what ever point you want to make. Per game averages are great except it makes too many assumptions. The per year average makes more of a statement based on actual completed accomplishments, where the other method seems based on what he "could/should" score if he was healthy, and not what he actually did.

Standing pat is exactly that, doing nothing in the UFA market for centres. I never suggested waiting til next year.

Arnott is not better then Koivu. At best they are equal and there is no stat you could find to prove that statement. The one thing different is that Koivu means more to the team and the community.

It shouldn't matter if the cap goes up, if it went up to $70M Would it make it ok to pay Arnott $7M or $9M or how about $15M then?

He is worth $3M, maybe $4M if you owe him a a debt of gratitude for saving your child or something.

As for Ribs, I never suggested keeping Ribs in the second line centre spot, but I don't think it would be " the worst thing that could happen to the habs this year" . He does need to be traded, but if people hate him so much what makes you think the list is long for takers?

[InsaneHABSfan]

You're right about the 66%, but the buyout price is spread over the remaining years of the contract boughtout per the CBA. Therefore it would be a 1.58M$ hit on the cap next year. We're better of keeping him for that year while Chipchura gets that 1 year in the AHL that he needs and then be-bye for the 2007-08 season.

For a veteran with one year left it is spread out over two years, if he has two years left they can spread it over 4 years.

As validated by the Top Leaf Brass Mr. JF junior and the Columbus GM (Maclean?). If Domi gets bought out they can spread it out over two years.

I only call them as I see them and from the GM's mouths.

Edited June 17, 2006 by InsaneAVSfan

[Peter Puck]

Buying out Bonk is not a good plan and I can't see Gainey doing it.

The fact that we could spread the cost over 2 years is not really a good thing. We will probably have a better shot at the cup in 07-08 than in 06-07.

Also, while we would save $800,000 (or $400,000 for each of 2 years) we would need to spend that savings on another player. I don't think we can get as good a player as Bonk for $800,000. While Bonk didn't produce many points last season he played very well defensively. He still has good upside.

I also want to make another point about the cap. Saving money is only useful if we are actually going to spend our savings, Saving versus the cap is only relevant if we spend near the limit.

If Gainey wants to get one or more expensive free agents and we start to bump up against the cap then by all means make trades or even buyouts to get us some space. But I not at all sure this is our plan. Many have suggested we should stand pat or only pick up one medium priced UFA. To me this seems more likely. If that is what he is planning then the cap and our cap space isn't very important. We just need enough space to have the freedom to pick up some palyers at the trade deadline.

In summary, it seems to me many are overemphasing the cap at the expense of the more important question of how good players are and how much they will help us.

[shortcat1]

Now, back on topic...

I know that these guys are not on the list but I'd still love to see Gainey bring in Eric Brewer. The thing is I don't know his status anymore. I can't find any reference to him having been resigned by St. Louis or traded to any other team.

:king: :hlogo: :king:

[BTH]

My #1 guy would be Matt Cullen. A speedy center who backchecks hard, goes to the net, forechecks, can quarterback the PP and has a good amount of skill. He also won't cost us much. I doubt he leaves Carolina though.

[HABSROCK11]

My #1 guy would be Matt Cullen. A speedy center who backchecks hard, goes to the net, forechecks, can quarterback the PP and has a good amount of skill. He also won't cost us much. I doubt he leaves Carolina though.

I agree, Bulis...To a point, but we need scoring...Defence is good, but we need a big top line centre that can score...Lecavelier would be ideal, but that is just a dream, but although Cullen is a good player...Arnott should be our top priority at centre....

On a side note, we also need a top 4 defenceman...Jay McKee would be the ideal player...Solid stay at home defenceman who would be a perfect fit with Markov...Let Markov do his thing..LOL

Edited June 18, 2006 by HABSROCK11

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

My God. The comparison between Lang and Arnott is by production for their team, not in playing styles

Dividing the points per game played is a way of curbing stats to fit what ever point you want to make. Per game averages are great except it makes too many assumptions. The per year average makes more of a statement based on actual completed accomplishments, where the other method seems based on what he "could/should" score if he was healthy, and not what he actually did.

Standing pat is exactly that, doing nothing in the UFA market for centres. I never suggested waiting til next year.

Arnott is not better then Koivu. At best they are equal and there is no stat you could find to prove that statement. The one thing different is that Koivu means more to the team and the community.

It shouldn't matter if the cap goes up, if it went up to $70M Would it make it ok to pay Arnott $7M or $9M or how about $15M then?

He is worth $3M, maybe $4M if you owe him a a debt of gratitude for saving your child or something.

As for Ribs, I never suggested keeping Ribs in the second line centre spot, but I don't think it would be " the worst thing that could happen to the habs this year" . He does need to be traded, but if people hate him so much what makes you think the list is long for takers?

If they're the same in production for their teams, then say so, don't say that Arnott and Lang are the same, it implies that they are the SAME...Also, they are not the same, one is on the decline and a huge risk (is it next year that Lang becomes a huge old flop...). Also, there is a lot more then production in a players value. You can't link point production to salary straight up just like you did. Arnott is a much better proven goal scorer (check the stats) and this is what we need more then anything else, not a passing center, a croring center (Koivu us a passing center). Also, Arnott as that playing style (physical, hard nose checking guy) that we need that Lang doesn't. Why get a guy that is old and doesn't fit what we need? I can't believe I'm actually explaining that we need Arnott way more then Lang, its so obvious

As for the pts/game vs. pts/season, they both are stats with flaws and good value. Pts/game doesn't curb anything???? It shows a players production to the team on a per game basis when he plays. It actually is the better stats to see the offensive a guy brings in a game. Pts/season doesn't show much unless players are at full seasons, otherwise it only reflects that a player can often be injured, which is also a good thing. While mine shows the offense that a guy brings (which is what we were talking about and what we are looking for), your's show that Arnott as a hard time playing a full season and you need the pts and game played stats to see any value in the pts/season stat. I and most analyst prefer the pts/game stats as it as more value by itself then the pts/season stat. Again, I don't even know why I'm expalining this, it's so obvious

Arnott is a better player then Koivu. Arnott's best are 33 goals, 76 pts and a +23 rating vs. Koivu's best that are 21 goals, 71 pts and a +8 rating. Look at their stats for the past 10 years and Koivu doesn't match Arnott's production. What does Koivu's value to the community have anything to do whit a player's talent and production? Yes Koivu as been here for a long time and went threw difficult times but can we blame Arnott for doing the same? Enough said.

Yes, I would pay Arnott 7M$ if the cap went up to 70M$. If the cap goes up to 70M$, that means that all players salaries would increase by the same %. Arnott at 4M$ is 10% of the 40M$ cap like at 7M$ it's 10% of the 70M$ cap. Who said anything about 15M$ or 21% of the cap that is not even permitted anyways (max 20%). Great analysis there Man, you know nothing about a cap system and maths. You're arguing with a Chartered Accountant here, I would drop the cap comments if I were you, you're way out of your league here.

Arnott is worth more then 3M$. 4M$ is the strict minimum. Dallas just offered him little over 3M$ and he turned it down. He will get 5M$ as a UFA, trust me on this one.

As for Ribs, I'm sure that a team would be interested, but I'm not saying we will get much in return. I just want him gone. Dropping him could also be a solution. Don't have to trade him, just not offer him a qualifying offer before June 26th.

Edited June 18, 2006 by Komisarek the Cruncher

[Habitforming]

If they're the same in production for their teams, then say so, don't say that Arnott and Lang are the same, it implies that they are the SAME...Also, they are not the same, one is on the decline and a huge risk (is it next year that Lang becomes a huge old flop...). Also, there is a lot more then production in a players value. You can't link point production to salary straight up just like you did. Arnott is a much better proven goal scorer (check the stats) and this is what we need more then anything else, not a passing center, a croring center (Koivu us a passing center). Also, Arnott as that playing style (physical, hard nose checking guy) that we need that Lang doesn't. Why get a guy that is old and doesn't fit what we need? I can't believe I'm actually explaining that we need Arnott way more then Lang, its so obvious

As for the pts/game vs. pts/season, they both are stats with flaws and good value. Pts/game doesn't curb anything???? It shows a players production to the team on a per game basis when he plays. It actually is the better stats to see the offensive a guy brings in a game. Pts/season doesn't show much unless players are at full seasons, otherwise it only reflects that a player can often be injured, which is also a good thing. While mine shows the offense that a guy brings (which is what we were talking about and what we are looking for), your's show that Arnott as a hard time playing a full season and you need the pts and game played stats to see any value in the pts/season stat. I and most analyst prefer the pts/game stats as it as more value by itself then the pts/season stat. Again, I don't even know why I'm expalining this, it's so obvious

Arnott is a better player then Koivu. Arnott's best are 33 goals, 76 pts and a +23 rating vs. Koivu's best that are 21 goals, 71 pts and a +8 rating. Look at their stats for the past 10 years and Koivu doesn't match Arnott's production. What does Koivu's value to the community have anything to do whit a player's talent and production? Yes Koivu as been here for a long time and went threw difficult times but can we blame Arnott for doing the same? Enough said.

Yes, I would pay Arnott 7M$ if the cap went up to 70M$. If the cap goes up to 70M$, that means that all players salaries would increase by the same %. Arnott at 4M$ is 10% of the 40M$ cap like at 7M$ it's 10% of the 70M$ cap. Who said anything about 15M$ or 21% of the cap that is not even permitted anyways (max 20%). Great analysis there Man, you know nothing about a cap system and maths. You're arguing with a Chartered Accountant here, I would drop the cap comments if I were you, you're way out of your league here.

Arnott is worth more then 3M$. 4M$ is the strict minimum. Dallas just offered him little over 3M$ and he turned it down. He will get 5M$ as a UFA, trust me on this one.

As for Ribs, I'm sure that a team would be interested, but I'm not saying we will get much in return. I just want him gone. Dropping him could also be a solution. Don't have to trade him, just not offer him a qualifying offer before June 26th.

Ok I'm gonna answer you for the last time because I feel bad for people like you.

UI never suggested the habs pick up Lang in any comment I made so quit pulling stuff out of the air. I compared Arnott and Lang in production and then in salary to prove a point, but you have predicted Lang will be a flop next year so why bother arguing about it anymore right?

The points per game is great except when a guy plays 30-50 games a year, that "stat" doesn't help any team do anything.

"Arnott is a better player then Koivu. Arnott's best are 33 goals, 76 pts and a +23 rating vs. Koivu's best that are 21 goals, 71 pts and a +8 rating. Look at their stats for the past 10 years and Koivu doesn't match Arnott's production. What does Koivu's value to the community have anything to do whit a player's talent and production? Yes Koivu as been here for a long time and went threw difficult times but can we blame Arnott for doing the same? Enough said."

Doesn't this contradict what you said in the first paragraph? ("Also, there is a lot more then production in a players value. You can't link point production to salary straight up just like you did. ")

For the cap comment Mr. Chartered accountant sir, I wasn't argueing how much would be legally allowed in a certain cap scenario. I was asking at what point would you consider Arnott to be overpaid. I must be out of my league, Next time I'll speak slower for ya.

As for Ribs, I don't care what is done with him but you can't loose him for nothing after spending millions developing him. Then again when it comes to players, money is no object. I thought accountants were numbers kinda people?

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Ok I'm gonna answer you for the last time because I feel bad for people like you.

UI never suggested the habs pick up Lang in any comment I made so quit pulling stuff out of the air. I compared Arnott and Lang in production and then in salary to prove a point, but you have predicted Lang will be a flop next year so why bother arguing about it anymore right?

The points per game is great except when a guy plays 30-50 games a year, that "stat" doesn't help any team do anything.

"Arnott is a better player then Koivu. Arnott's best are 33 goals, 76 pts and a +23 rating vs. Koivu's best that are 21 goals, 71 pts and a +8 rating. Look at their stats for the past 10 years and Koivu doesn't match Arnott's production. What does Koivu's value to the community have anything to do whit a player's talent and production? Yes Koivu as been here for a long time and went threw difficult times but can we blame Arnott for doing the same? Enough said."

Doesn't this contradict what you said in the first paragraph? ("Also, there is a lot more then production in a players value. You can't link point production to salary straight up just like you did. ")

For the cap comment Mr. Chartered accountant sir, I wasn't argueing how much would be legally allowed in a certain cap scenario. I was asking at what point would you consider Arnott to be overpaid. I must be out of my league, Next time I'll speak slower for ya.

As for Ribs, I don't care what is done with him but you can't loose him for nothing after spending millions developing him. Then again when it comes to players, money is no object. I thought accountants were numbers kinda people?

Wow, such weak arguments !!!! And you contradict your self all over the place!!!! And you leave out many things I say to only keep what helps make your point.

No point discussing with you

I don't feel sorry for people like you, only the ones that can be helped and you're way behond that point

[BTH]

Okay guys, stop it.

Back to what I was saying about Cullen. Someone (I think HABSROCK_06) said that we need a more offensive guy. Well, I think Cullen is good enough offensively. I wouldn't consider him a defensive forward. He can definitely surprise some people. He does many things that we want our current players to do like go to the net and play with intensity. He also forechecks and backchecks hard, has a good work ethic, plays PP, PK, has a good shot and can stickhandle. I think he can be a good 2nd line center for us and a very cheap one. I think he'll provide the offence needed and at his salary won't be much of a risk. Much more bang for the buck then a guy like Arnott or Lang.

[kaos]

Geeze, I can't wait till Saturday when we'll be talking about draft picks,a nd possibly trades so we can put this post to rest. Its getting tiring

[smon]

Me too...

I don't know if Cullen can be a second liner..seems like a good two way third line centre, powerplay time too. But has never really notched more than 40-something pts a year.

[shortcat1]

Geeze, I can't wait till Saturday when we'll be talking about draft picks,a nd possibly trades so we can put this post to rest. Its getting tiring

as stated before...

amen to that idea.

This has to be the longest (or one of them) thread that's non-game related and it's slowly going nowhere.

:king: :hlogo: :king:

[InsaneHABSfan]

shortcat1 is now relaxing until someone comes up with a good signing.

[kaos]

Looks like Shortcat could use some sunscreen, his fur is looking a little red.....zinc the schnoz as well

[CoRvInA]

Geezz I'm gone for a month and a half and this is what were talking about?? :king:

Ciao a tutti ( that's hi to everyone) btw

Gonna go see if I can learn more from the draft this saturday... cause myself included.... were not focusing on what's " wery wery" important right now .. DRAFT PICK NUMBER 16 ....and what has been a sore spot in our glorious past recently over the years getting that future GEM that everyone overlooked!

Ciaoo