Ryder Overrated

[markierung]

There's been a lot of talk in the forums about ryder being an extremely valuable scorrer that can put up 40 and maybe even 50 goals somewhere in the near future.

He's overrated.

Over half his goals were on the powerplay.

When on even strength, he was more of a defensive liability than an offensive threat.

During the second half of the season, it was Higgins and Koivu that carried his line. He's almost invisible on even strenght.

Bob was even quoted as calling him "completement nul" on even strength.

If we can get a good deal for this guy, i say ship him out. With the way he negotiates contracts and the fact that he filed for arbitration, i really think he'll bolt that first chance that someone throws some money in his face.

Besides, with Latendresse and Andrei Kost. coming up, i'm not worried about losing his wrist shot.

[Psycing]

Even if Gainey planned on dealing Ryder, he'd have to prove that he was healthy. According to many sources, Ryder played pretty much the entire season with an injury. (Something about a disk in his back I believe).

Still, he was able to produce even more goals than his first season with the injury. I'm anxious to see how he does starting the season fresh and as healthy as possible. (If you remember, he missed the start of training camp because of an ancle injury last season.)

He more than deserves another year to prove he can keep improving and be a better player defensively. I'm sure under Carbonneau, Ryder's overall game will improve. He's done nothing but work hard to get to the position he is in now, and I'm sure he knows he'll have to keep that up if he plans on sticking around.

[Fanpuck33]

I'm sick of people bitching about Ryder filing for arbitration. Nobody seemed to have a problem wanting to go after Dumont or Briere, and they both filed for arbitration. Gomez too.

He's a young player and isn't a star who knows he'll be around for years to come. He's a solid player with the potential to have a long career, but that isn't a sure thing. He was offered a one year deal, not a mult-year deal. Of course he is going to try to get as much money as possible right now. He's not in a position where he can take a low salary even if he loves being a habs. After another season of solid production, maybe he will have earned a mutl-year deal where he'd be able to accept a little less money than he would like, since he is assured of the money of the course of a few years.

Maybe he really will bolt and is tough to negotiate with, but that isn't what we should assume. Maybe his agent is a hardballer. Maybe he wants as much money as possible now in case he doesn't last. There are a lot of possibilities.

[markierung]

I'm not saying we should deal him right away, all i'm saying is that it wouldn't be a complete disaster if a deal comes up in which we can get some good return for this guy and we le him go.

[House11]

on a team that struggles to score ( especially last season ) i'm sure Gainey didn't want him thinking defense ... they want him to SCORE and think offense ... Koivu and Higgins can play D pretty well ... Ryder is the sniper of that line ... he needs to do that and he can't if he's constantly thinking Defense first. Brett Hull , Pavel Bure were snipers .. they didn't think about defense and i'm sure any team would want either of those two in there primes ... ( btw not comparing ryder to them just the role )

now, can ryder get more efficent when he back checks ? yes he can and I think he will over time with carbo helping him.

[Mr. Nasty]

I like Ryder. There I said it. 30 goals is 30 goals...it doesn't matter how you get them. Name a 40-50 goal scorer that didn't get a bunch of powerplay goals. He has great hands around the net, that is all I expect from him. That being said, I also don't see any harm in addind Dumont. Having 3 very good scoring lines is always welcome. IMO I would waive a guy like Downey to make it happen.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Ryder, yeah, ship him out, he's ONLY a natural goal scorer, right? We have so many of those.

It's just like the 'dump Souray' crowd...people focusing on what a player doesn't do instead of his obvious and considerable strengths. Ryder scores 30 goals with a bad back in the (notoriously dodgy) sophomore season of his career. And he gets a lot of goals on the PP, eh? Gee, what a drag. If only he were Brian Skrudland

Having said that, IF we get a great player back, then sure, trade him. But there's no one on the team I WOULDN'T say that about.

[MAK]

There's been a lot of talk in the forums about ryder being an extremely valuable scorrer that can put up 40 and maybe even 50 goals somewhere in the near future.

He's overrated.

Over half his goals were on the powerplay.

When on even strength, he was more of a defensive liability than an offensive threat.

During the second half of the season, it was Higgins and Koivu that carried his line. He's almost invisible on even strenght.

Bob was even quoted as calling him "completement nul" on even strength.

If we can get a good deal for this guy, i say ship him out. With the way he negotiates contracts and the fact that he filed for arbitration, i really think he'll bolt that first chance that someone throws some money in his face.

Besides, with Latendresse and Andrei Kost. coming up, i'm not worried about losing his wrist shot.

was is it with the ryder bashing??he's still a 30 goal scorer and our best sniper in the team and a force on PP

I have to say, however, that he is one good trade bait and could be used to bring a good D man.

[habsfan88]

Ryder, yeah, ship him out, he's ONLY a natural goal scorer, right? We have so many of those.

It's just like the 'dump Souray' crowd...people focusing on what a player doesn't do instead of his obvious and considerable strengths. Ryder scores 30 goals with a bad back in the (notoriously dodgy) sophomore season of his career. And he gets a lot of goals on the PP, eh? Gee, what a drag. If only he were Brian Skrudland

Having said that, IF we get a great player back, then sure, trade him. But there's no one on the team I WOULDN'T say that about.

Agreed. I like him, he is a prolific scorer, but if the right deal came around I would deal him in a heartbeat.

For example, if we were to package players together to get Lecavalier or Marleau type of center.

[Mont Royale]

I like Ryder. There I said it. 30 goals is 30 goals...it doesn't matter how you get them. Name a 40-50 goal scorer that didn't get a bunch of powerplay goals. He has great hands around the net, that is all I expect from him. That being said, I also don't see any harm in addind Dumont. Having 3 very good scoring lines is always welcome. IMO I would waive a guy like Downey to make it happen.

Well said. I like Ryder too.

Do powerplay goals count less than 5 on 5 goals? If he scored 30 goals while 5 on 5, people would complain he was useless on the powerplay.

Ryder has limitations - but who doesn't? On a team that struggles to score, he's vital.

[lazy26]

I don't feel Ryder is overrated whatsoever... I have nothing to add to the aforementioned points save that I am excited to see what Ryder can do if he returns 100% and improves on his chemistry with Koivu and Higgins.

[Dalhabs]

He didnt go to arbitration either. He signed a 1year deal for 2.2M and I bet if he went to arbitration he would be given more than 2.5M so I say he want to be here.

[SoCalHab]

Ryder, yeah, ship him out, he's ONLY a natural goal scorer, right? We have so many of those.

It's just like the 'dump Souray' crowd...people focusing on what a player doesn't do instead of his obvious and considerable strengths. Ryder scores 30 goals with a bad back in the (notoriously dodgy) sophomore season of his career. And he gets a lot of goals on the PP, eh? Gee, what a drag. If only he were Brian Skrudland

Having said that, IF we get a great player back, then sure, trade him. But there's no one on the team I WOULDN'T say that about.

in total agreement...get that spezza highlight goal out of your heads already!!! have you forgot about mcCarty's face?

[KoZed]

Its too bad that some have got to knock on Ryder to temper those who overrate him.

Ryder is overrated when fans starts saying he should have been invited to Team Canada's camp for the Olympics. Ryder is overrated when fans expect him to be 1st-line caliber winger or compare him to top goal scorers in the league.

Ryder is not just "limited", he's very limited. Aside from his shooting, he's very average in all other aspects of the game: average playmaking, average skating, average hitting, average defense, etc.

Of course his goal-scoring is welcomed. That's basically the only reason he's in the lineup because he brings little else. But he won't be able to hold on his spot on the Habs for long once younger, more complete kids starts challenging him.

30-something goals is nice. But 30-something goals when goals is your sole contribution is a bare minimum. Pure snipers who only score goals (someone mentionned Hull and Bure) have to go up in the near 40-50's to be considered dangerous.

30 goals isnt all that great people. Guys like Andy McDonald, Mike Knuble, Jere Lethinen, Marek Svatos, Mike Sillinger, Petr Prucha all scored more or as many goals as last season and those guys are rarely talked about as fearsome snipers. 5-7, 175 lbs Brian Gionta, whose the same age as Ryder, came out of nowhere and scored 48 goals last year. 20-years old Patrice Bergeron scored 31 goals with basically no offensive support.

Ryder is a Mark Parrish/Fredrik Modin type of guy. Nice depth scoring when you can count on other, better top forwards. With so many young guns with better overall potential in the system, if Ryder wants to stick in Montreal in the long run he'll either have to increase his goals output or develop a more complete game. Habs will have too much forward talent to keep carrying a powerplay specialist around.

[Fanpuck33]

in total agreement...get that spezza highlight goal out of your heads already!!! have you forgot about mcCarty's face?

The Spezza highlight goal is just one of many examples of Souray getting schooled last season. If Ryder deserves criticism, then so does Souray. Souray brings toughness and a helluva shot, but he is an average defender based on what I saw out of him last season.

As for McCarty's face, that is a HORRIBLE example of his toughness. The only reason McCarty was so badly bloodied in that fight was because Souray was wearing a plastic wrist brace that extended up to his fist. Every time he punched McCarty, the plastic made contact with his face. He was ejected from the game for it.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I'm not going to get into the debate of whether Ryder is or isn't overrated. The fact is that when Higgins isn't scoring goals he flicking the puck on net with a wrister and Ryder takes out the trash

I see no need whatsoever to break up this line until or unless something changes that's negative.

Here's the top 15 PP goal leaders for the NHL in 2005-06:

Ilya Kovalchuk

J. Cheechoo

Jaromir Jagr

Brian Gionta

Dany Heatley

A. Ovechkin

Patrick Marleau

Eric Staal

Ryan Smyth

Rod Brind'Amour

Teemu Selanne

Michael Ryder

Darcy Tucker

Henrik Zetterberg

Jarome Iginla

All of these guys must be overrated

[Drivefor25]

While we're on this whole trade our goal scorers rant why don't we trhow in Begin and Kovalev and Higgins, shit, why don't we just trade the entire f***ing team and get lindros and tucker and whoever else is washed up.

C'mon people, Ryder? Overated? I'll bet whoever made that post would be so lucky as to even get a shot off on an nhl powerplay let alone score a goal.

Who the hell cares where the goals come from as long as they go in, besides Ryder has increased his goal output from his first season to the next, I'm convinced he would have scored at least 40 last year had there not been the lockout.

As for the arbitration, what does it matter, he felt he was worth and deserved more and therefore decided to try it out. I think he's worth the award he was given.

let's just sit back and relax, at least until the season starts before we go and accuse a player of being over rated. if he doesn't produce trade, if he does, shut your mouth!

[ehjay]

Agreed. I like him, he is a prolific scorer, but if the right deal came around I would deal him in a heartbeat.

For example, if we were to package players together to get Lecavalier or Marleau type of center.

I'll say it (too) I F****N' love Ryder!!!

and as habsfan88 sayed I'd trade him too, but only in a situation where we would get a 1st line center,

cuz that is what we need and yes that would also make an extra spot for one of our young guns to come up and kill up the league.

That sayed IN BOB WE TRUST cuz ya'll know that a loosing trade like the one WE THE FANS had to suffer through (Desjardins, Recchi, Robinson, Chelios, and the list goes on) will NOT HAPPEN in the empire of the GREAT GAINEY, and for that IN BOB WE TRUST!

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Honestly though. He was a finalist for the Calder. Then, he survives any sort of sophomore jinx. So, maybe the jury is out on him. Who cares? There is no indication yet that he might not still be more of a gem than we've seen.

That's probably why Bob Gainey signed him :hlogo:

Patience Luke, use the force.

Edited August 10, 2006 by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN

[House11]

I like what you wrote Kozed ... you make a great point !

I think this year will be the indication if he's going to get any better and stick with the team ... which is why I think he was not offered a multi-year deal ... if he can improve his defense and playmaking to go with his goal scoring then I think the multi-year contract will be waiting in the offseason for him.

[KoZed]

let's just sit back and relax, at least until the season starts before we go and accuse a player of being over rated. if he doesn't produce trade, if he does, shut your mouth!

Saying a player is overrated has more to do with how fans evalute him than the player himself.

If you love Ryder, good for you. But stay realistic, please.

And DO NOT tell ANYONE to "shut your mouth". If you can't stand people having a different opinion than yours, just dont read message boards.

Edited August 10, 2006 by KoZed

[shortcat1]

I'm sure that 29 other NHL teams would be very pleased to have Ryder on their roster.

His -5 record still adds up to +25 goals at the end of the season.

He has his strenghts & his weaknesses like any other (you & I included) but his 25+ goals per year is most welcome.

Ryder is on my team? Great!!!!

:king: :hlogo: :king:

Edited August 10, 2006 by shortcat1

[Chips]

Well, first of all I agree with KoZed. Everyone has a right to their opinion, its the beauty of our north american right to freedom of speech, also its one of thoses aspects I love about this forum, everyone is given an opportunity to present their point of view, stopping that would be dangerous.

So my take on this issue is clear. I love what Ryder has done in the past and continues to do. He is our best offensive weapon at the present time. If we trade him and place our team in a better situation then I'm all for it; same goes for any player on our team. After all its a team sport and what each player brings to the team is what really matters. Everyone player has a role and trust me Carbo and Muller will demand nothing less than each player contributing 100% and play their Role! The fact is that the chemistry he had with higgins and koivu really was counted on every night last year and before when he was paired up on Rib's Line. I must admit that I'm a bit afraid of the what if senario around Koivu not being ready for the start of the season. Or what if he's paired up on a different line? Questions that need answers and I'm sure Ryder will step up and answer them generously.

The good news is that he is young, has that scorers touch, a head for the net and getting into position (ie. effective on powerplays), he has worked hard for everything he has achieved thus far. IMO he has what it takes to be on our TEAM and I for one feel very good watching him on the ice with the puck on his stick, can't wait to to say "He shoots! He SCORES!"

Go habs GO!

[RobRock]

The whole "he chose arbitration so he doesn't want to stay in Montreal" argument really bothers me, especially when it's taken out of perspective. Mike Ribeiro went from leading the team in scoring in 03-04 to finishing fourth in 05-06. Ryder went from second in 03-04 and their second leading goal scorer that season to third in 05-06 and their top goal scorer. Yet he gets a qualifying offer only and Ribs gets a raise. "Thank you sir, may I have some more?" This isn't Oliver Twist. If anything, I see why he chose arbitration. But in the end, he negotiated a deal with the team and signed before training camp started. He was playing for a coach whom he had played for since junior, and that coach helped get him to where he is today. That coach is also no longer with the team, so that meant he had to adjust to a new coach, an adjustment that will continue in training camp this time around. He also may have lost some production because of the fact that Higgins got hot down the stretch, but that just means that he has the opportunity to get some more assists, if the line remains together for a whole season.

In all honesty, I really don't think that Ryder is a first-line player, but he was thrown into that role because he was a consistent goal-scoring threat. As was said before, he's not a defensive force, and in many games, Koivu's line was used as a counter to the opponent's top line. If Carbonneau opts to use that same gameplan, it may be better to drop Ryder to the second line where he'll still get his ice time, but not be asked to shadow a top-line player on a nightly basis. But then again, maybe Ryder will seize the opportunity to improve his defensive play. His skating isn't gonna win him any races against Sergei Samsonov, but in the past he's found a way to get into open spaces, and he's still got one of the quickest releases on the team, maybe in the league. He's got to use that skill more than he did last season. He's also got to mix up his shots more, shooting lower and in different spots. He went high to the glove side way too often to the point that goalies knew that's where he was going before the pass was ever made.

There's room for improvement in Ryder's game, but his attitude needs no alteration. He's a bit of a shy person, but he's popular within the dressing room and with the fans, at least some of them. But there are a lot of players coming back from lacklustre performances a year ago who have as much to prove and Ryder does. Bonk, Kovalev, Ribeiro, Souray, even Chris Higgins. One guy managed to avoid the sophomore jinx, let's see if Higgins is as fortunate.

[InsaneHABSfan]

I don't think you will see Ryder traded any time soon. He is a legitimate goal scorer.

Plus is he not on a 1 year contract? What team is going to give up a say "Lecavier" for him when they can just sign him next year?

This is our team and these are the guys we are going to cheer for. BG has built the team and now we will see how this works out. Two solid goalies to back up this team for a full year will help solidify this squad.

Go :hlogo: !