JMMR Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Koivu does seem to make anyone he plays with better, but maybe ryder just needs a change in scenario to give him a jump start. Maybe put him on a line with ppl who play at a slower pace, and put zhogs back with koivu and see if they can reunite the chemistry they had start of last season. Higgins is still on the shelf in this line up: Lats Koivu Perezhogin Kosty Kovalev Samsonov Ryder Bonk Johnson Plekanec Begin Murray I do not understand why people want to break up Perezhogin from Bonk and Johnson, that line is lethal and the most consistant on the Canadiens. Also for Ryder to be successful he needs to play an offensive role with fairl large minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Oooh, I touched the old Ryder nerve again. Whatever. It was to be expected that with the prospects we have, they would push out other guys sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted November 15, 2006 Author Share Posted November 15, 2006 Oooh, I touched the old Ryder nerve again. I wouldn't worry too much. I'm sure these very people who say Ryder in untouchable and don't want to hear proposals or ideas didn't like the Russ Courtnall for Brian Bellows or the Corson for Damphousse trade in the summer of 1992... ...look what ended up happening the following June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Two things with this thread. Ryder isn't an untouchable. Sure he's played well for the Habs, but hey, if he could be packaged for an upgrade elsewhere on our team, cool. The Habs have decent RW depth. Second, why...dear god, why, when people do line proposals are you just tossing players around on their off wings, different positions, etc. At LEAST try and be realistic...keep RWs on the RW, LWs on the LW, Cs where they should be. By the time Higgins gets back, if the 2nd line isn't clicking yet, I expect a trade to be made. Gainey has said all along that he was going to wait until December to evaluate the team and make necessary moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted November 15, 2006 Author Share Posted November 15, 2006 Two things with this thread. Ryder isn't an untouchable. Sure he's played well for the Habs, but hey, if he could be packaged for an upgrade elsewhere on our team, cool. The Habs have decent RW depth. Second, why...dear god, why, when people do line proposals are you just tossing players around on their off wings, different positions, etc. At LEAST try and be realistic...keep RWs on the RW, LWs on the LW, Cs where they should be. By the time Higgins gets back, if the 2nd line isn't clicking yet, I expect a trade to be made. Gainey has said all along that he was going to wait until December to evaluate the team and make necessary moves. Too bad Kovalev unlikely cannot be dealt. I'd rather keep kim but it's league knowledge his knee is wonky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Two things with this thread. Ryder isn't an untouchable. Sure he's played well for the Habs, but hey, if he could be packaged for an upgrade elsewhere on our team, cool. The Habs have decent RW depth. Second, why...dear god, why, when people do line proposals are you just tossing players around on their off wings, different positions, etc. At LEAST try and be realistic...keep RWs on the RW, LWs on the LW, Cs where they should be. By the time Higgins gets back, if the 2nd line isn't clicking yet, I expect a trade to be made. Gainey has said all along that he was going to wait until December to evaluate the team and make necessary moves. on all 3 points. Ryder's not untouchable, would fetch a better return than an unknown kid. If the D doesn't shape up with Dandy and Bouillon back, something will have to give. Unrealistic lines... a by-product of NHL07 and all the fantasy/video games? Yup, the December mark is reasonable. Remember its in Dec. last year that the team took a nose dive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 We should trade lats while his value is high.... Just kidding, but I hardly think Lats can replace Higgins or Ryder at this point. At the end of the season, if Lats has shown he is BETTER then them, they we can trade one of them. Until that time, Lats is unknown potential. Ryder is a known commodity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRvInA Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 (edited) As I wrote in another thread.... its not about trading anyone right now... not until we've exhausted our resources to make two productive first lines! the second line is not out of hot water yet!... Kostitsyn (spell check) has to be freaking amazing to be the solution for the second line and the chances are low for that! Perez bless his soul has made very clear he wants to stay on the third line... so why not try Higgins in the second line ... Because I don’t think LAts can handle the two Russians... Koivu makes anyone play better! Specially with his unselfish and team first mentality... Not that Kovalev lacks it… but there’s no arguing Koivu has more of that! I'm sure we will find out once "Getting Higgy with it" comes back... I just hope Kosty and the ghosts of the Soviet red army here the calling! Edited November 15, 2006 by CoRvInA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 If Ryder continues to struggle until Higgins returns then I think it's safe to say that he'll have earned his demotion to the 3rd line. I'd like to see this if Lats continues to perform and Ryder continues to struggle: Higgins-Koivu-Lats Samsonov-Kovalev-Kosty Johnson-Perezhogin/Plekanec-Ryder Perez/Pleks-Bonk-Begin That would be 3 pretty darn good lines that can score and 2 of them would be pretty solid defensively. Would anyone else like to see us try to put a package together for Forsberg? He's UFA at year end so he might not cost the world but could help us put a nice run into the playoffs... Say something like: Bonk, Ryder and a 2nd round pick at the trade deadline. I would drool over seeing Kovalev, Foppa and Sammy on a line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Love Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Would anyone else like to see us try to put a package together for Forsberg? I would rather us get nobody than Forsberg and his ridiculous salary, that guy is the most injury prone "superstar" in the league. In fact I wouldn't trade a 1st rd pick for him straight up. The guy is waaaayyy to big of a risk at 7+ million dollars. If we were to go after anyone on that team it would have to be Gagne who still comes at a hefty pricetag, but at least you would get some good minutes out of him for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I would rather us get nobody than Forsberg and his ridiculous salary, that guy is the most injury prone "superstar" in the league. In fact I wouldn't trade a 1st rd pick for him straight up. The guy is waaaayyy to big of a risk at 7+ million dollars. If we were to go after anyone on that team it would have to be Gagne who still comes at a hefty pricetag, but at least you would get some good minutes out of him for years to come. Gange will cost a lot more than Forsberg because he in undercontract for a few more seasons. I would not be happy if the Habs went after Forsberg now because I believe he can be had for next to nothing come the trading deadline because of his impending ufa status. He would be an amazing addition for a team looking to make a big run at the Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 This team is not one player away from the cup. Trading some UFA's and fringe players to get younger is the way to go. I don't think the habs will get any high priced rental player. Examples of trades: (I'm not it will happen) Souray and a second to Edmonton for a first rounder Souray or Rivet to the Sharks for one of there young D. So before the next post says i'm crazy to want to trade Souray, i'll state now he is not coming back, trade him while he is hot. There are 4 UFA Dmen on the team, Markov is top priority, the rest can go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 To be honest, you can't make a statement saying Soray wont be back, you're not the GM nor Souray himself. You can say you think he wont be back, but I'm glad Gainey is the GM not you Everyone keeps talking about getting the 'number 1-2' defenceman like it will instantly solve all of the habs (very few) problems? How's Chara working out in Boston? I know you can point to the Ducks and Pronger, but there was already a good D core there in Neidermyer. As to Markov, I'm going to be the one that bursts the bubble, he's not playing that great this year. He's made numerious mistakes and miss ups. He's getting points yes, but as people like to say so is Souray, but he's goofing up on defence. One last thing, am I the only one that thinks when Higgins and the cube comes back that we're one of the most dangerious teams in the league? Serious cup contenders? When I watch the way Sammy and Kovy skate with the puck I drool at their potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 If Ryder continues to struggle until Higgins returns then I think it's safe to say that he'll have earned his demotion to the 3rd line. I'd like to see this if Lats continues to perform and Ryder continues to struggle: Higgins-Koivu-Lats Samsonov-Kovalev-Kosty Johnson-Perezhogin/Plekanec-Ryder Perez/Pleks-Bonk-Begin That would be 3 pretty darn good lines that can score and 2 of them would be pretty solid defensively. Would anyone else like to see us try to put a package together for Forsberg? He's UFA at year end so he might not cost the world but could help us put a nice run into the playoffs... Say something like: Bonk, Ryder and a 2nd round pick at the trade deadline. I would drool over seeing Kovalev, Foppa and Sammy on a line... Johnson and Ryder are our only two right-handed shots. No way they'll end up on the same line; and no way either one of them will play LW. As for Forsberg, nevermind giving anything worthwhile for him. Not worth the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 To be honest, you can't make a statement saying Soray wont be back, you're not the GM nor Souray himself. You can say you think he wont be back, but I'm glad Gainey is the GM not you Everyone keeps talking about getting the 'number 1-2' defenceman like it will instantly solve all of the habs (very few) problems? How's Chara working out in Boston? I know you can point to the Ducks and Pronger, but there was already a good D core there in Neidermyer. As to Markov, I'm going to be the one that bursts the bubble, he's not playing that great this year. He's made numerious mistakes and miss ups. He's getting points yes, but as people like to say so is Souray, but he's goofing up on defence. One last thing, am I the only one that thinks when Higgins and the cube comes back that we're one of the most dangerious teams in the league? Serious cup contenders? When I watch the way Sammy and Kovy skate with the puck I drool at their potential. We'd still have to be much more effective 5 on 5 before being labeled "dangerous". We relly too much on special units. You're not a dangerous team when you're constantly outscored at even-strenght and when you are 3rd to last in the league for shots allowed. We're not a long way from top 10 teams in the League, but we still have alot of things to work on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Your right about me not beinng the GM or Souray but i'll bet you a dollar he won't be back. Markov just is a better all around player. The habs will not resign Markov and Souray both who will be looking at 4-5 million a year. When you weigh out who to resign, you need to resign the more complete player which is Markov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Johnson and Ryder are our only two right-handed shots. No way they'll end up on the same line; and no way either one of them will play LW. As for Forsberg, nevermind giving anything worthwhile for him. Not worth the risk. Koz, Johnson can play LW and has over the years, he's even played some C. And both Pleks and Zhog can handle playing C. As for the right handed shots...I don't think this is as big an issue as some make it out to be. Especially if Ryder's "right handed shot" continues to underperform on the top line. If he turns it around then I'd be more then happy to see him stay there but if, in 4+ weeks when Higgins returns, Ryder is still performing at the same level...then I see no reason to leave him on the top line just because he shoots right. As for Foppa, assuming he's healthy obviously, he is a bonafide game changer. The guy is still one of the best players in the league and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think his salary is around 5.5 million per year(almost equal to Bonk and Ryder's salary). His presence after the deadline would give us 3 very, very good lines and I believe we would have to be considered a cup contender. If Philly trades Foppa at the deadline they will get at LEAST a first rounder and more for him. Probably by a team that wants to make a legit playoff run...and we should be in a position to do this without hurting our future or payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Koz, Johnson can play LW and has over the years, he's even played some C. And both Pleks and Zhog can handle playing C. As for the right handed shots...I don't think this is as big an issue as some make it out to be. Especially if Ryder's "right handed shot" continues to underperform on the top line. If he turns it around then I'd be more then happy to see him stay there but if, in 4+ weeks when Higgins returns, Ryder is still performing at the same level...then I see no reason to leave him on the top line just because he shoots right. I know. But Gainey got Johnson especially because our only right-handed shot was Ryder. That's why I dont see those two ever playing on the same line; or either one of them being moved to the LW. We've got enough left-handed guys who have played LW... As for Ryder, if he can't stick on the top 2 lines, I dont see him being in the lineup at all. He sure won't move Johnson from the 3rd RW and he'd be wasted on the 4th. The right-handed shot importance is mostly for faceoffs and PP tactics. I never said its that important; just that it makes Ryder and Johnson highly unlikely to play LW or on the same line. As for Foppa, assuming he's healthy obviously, he is a bonafide game changer. The guy is still one of the best players in the league and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think his salary is around 5.5 million per year(almost equal to Bonk and Ryder's salary). His presence after the deadline would give us 3 very, very good lines and I believe we would have to be considered a cup contender. If Philly trades Foppa at the deadline they will get at LEAST a first rounder and more for him. Probably by a team that wants to make a legit playoff run...and we should be in a position to do this without hurting our future or payroll. I still wouldn't give anything for Forsberg. He's brittle, expensive and near the end of his career. He might be a changer, but his injury risk is so high its too much of a gamble just for one playoff run. We've got much more pressing needs at the blueline to adress before being 1 player away from the Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 As for Foppa, assuming he's healthy obviously, he is a bonafide game changer. The guy is still one of the best players in the league and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think his salary is around 5.5 million per year(almost equal to Bonk and Ryder's salary). According to the NHLPA website, his salary is $5.75M for this season. I wouldn't be upset if the Habs were in position to trade for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 According to the NHLPA website, his salary is $5.75M for this season. I wouldn't be upset if the Habs were in position to trade for him. Habs arn't in a position to trade from him. They don't have that kinda room under the cap without moving some other players. And that messes with the Chemistry too much. Besides, like its been mentioned before, he's too brittle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycing Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Samsonov - Koivu - Kovalev Latendresse - Higgins - Ryder/Kostitsyn Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson Begin - Plekanec - Kostitsyn/Downey Just a krazy idea... I actually don't like Higgins playing center too much because he makes for a great winger along the boards... but his 2-way play is much more suited for Center than Kovy. I like Ryder and all, but if Kosty gets hott, I could see him get bumped or moved. Though, Kosty would more likely be the odd-man out if he doesn't produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Samsonov - Koivu - Kovalev Latendresse - Higgins - Ryder/Kostitsyn Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson Begin - Plekanec - Kostitsyn/Downey Just a krazy idea... I actually don't like Higgins playing center too much because he makes for a great winger along the boards... but his 2-way play is much more suited for Center than Kovy. I like Ryder and all, but if Kosty gets hott, I could see him get bumped or moved. Though, Kosty would more likely be the odd-man out if he doesn't produce. Was is everyone so interested in moving Higgins back to centre after he failed to make it as a centre in the AHL and NHL and then had tremendous success as a LW'er? Why is everyone so interested in breaking up the line Koviu, Ryder Higgins line when it is the only line Montreal can consistantly rely on, with apologies to the Bonk line although they don't add as much offense?? Higgins is no longer a centre and you will not see Carbonneay move him their. Being a centre in his playing days Carbonneau wouldn't try and make Higgins one now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 (edited) Was is everyone so interested in moving Higgins back to centre after he failed to make it as a centre in the AHL and NHL and then had tremendous success as a LW'er? I agree. He was moved to the wing for a reason (based on his ability as a center versus a winger), not a situational decision based on depth Edited November 16, 2006 by Talon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 So let me get this straight. Lats had zero points in 13 games. That warrented a promotion. He now has 5 points. Ryder has 10 points. Why would I dump Ryder over a few games? You seem to assume that Lats will continue to score at this level, while Ryder will not. We don't really know about Lats, but we do know that Ryder is streaky and he could turn around and get 5 goals over the next few games. He could easily had 3 goals last night, i thought he played better then Lats (last night). So I just don't get the logic. Once Higgins gets back, the first line should go back to Ryder, Koivu, and Higgins. I want to see if Lats can produce on the 3rd or 4th line (maybe even the 2nd). If he is so awesome, he will. To date, Ryder and Higgins have convinced me that can contribute on the 1st line, and the second line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_faerie87 Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Johnson and Ryder are our only two right-handed shots. No way they'll end up on the same line; and no way either one of them will play LW. As for Forsberg, nevermind giving anything worthwhile for him. Not worth the risk. What about SAMSONOV?!?! He's a right-handed shot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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