Markov, it's done!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

BTH is probably right. Just you watch, Markov will struggle early because he'll be trying to do too much, living up to the big dollars, etc.. He seems like a rather insecure person - he was 'afraid' of testing the UFA market, he's shy about his English, and so on - so his response could be problematic.

Gentlemen and ladies, Red Fisher himself says that Bob paid market rate for Markov. No more, no less:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...631&k=52002

No offence to the backseat drivers around here, but that's good enough for me.

I want the Habs to sign Souray, but instead of sinking $6 mil in him, might we be better off signing a Briere (or other major UFA at C) and trying to plug the whole at D by trading for a moderately-priced D-man (2-3 mil) or signing a moderately-price D UFA? Might that be more of an overall upgrade? Just thinking out loud.

[beliveau1]

BTH is probably right. Just you watch, Markov will struggle early because he'll be trying to do too much, living up to the big dollars, etc.. He seems like a rather insecure person - he was 'afraid' of testing the UFA market, he's shy about his English, and so on - so his response could be problematic.

Gentlemen and ladies, Red Fisher himself says that Bob paid market rate for Markov. No more, no less:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...631&k=52002

No offence to the backseat drivers around here, but that's good enough for me.

I want the Habs to sign Souray, but instead of sinking $6 mil in him, might we be better off signing a Briere (or other major UFA at C) and trying to plug the whole at D by trading for a moderately-priced D-man (2-3 mil) or signing a moderately-price D UFA? Might that be more of an overall upgrade? Just thinking out loud.

Read that article and have to say that when you hear that from the dean of all hockey writers, it's pretty hard to argue with!

I said it earlier and I still stand by my first opinion - like it or not Gainey did not overpay for Markov.

Read Red Fisher's lips... He paid the going market value!!!!! July 1st will probably prove that in spades?

p.s. one side of me currently says I hope Souray walks given those numbers? But.....

Edited May 30, 2007 by beliveau1

[ShortHanded]

BTH is probably right. Just you watch, Markov will struggle early because he'll be trying to do too much, living up to the big dollars, etc.. He seems like a rather insecure person - he was 'afraid' of testing the UFA market, he's shy about his English, and so on - so his response could be problematic.

Gentlemen and ladies, Red Fisher himself says that Bob paid market rate for Markov. No more, no less:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...631&k=52002

No offence to the backseat drivers around here, but that's good enough for me.

I want the Habs to sign Souray, but instead of sinking $6 mil in him, might we be better off signing a Briere (or other major UFA at C) and trying to plug the whole at D by trading for a moderately-priced D-man (2-3 mil) or signing a moderately-price D UFA? Might that be more of an overall upgrade? Just thinking out loud.

agreed about the "overall upgrade" idea, although I'm not sure it'll happen. Not agreed that Markov's insecure, just a quiet guy; and why is it necessarily insecure to know you like where you are and decide not to mess with a good thing. Change for the sake of change is not always good. I think he'll struggle at the start of the season, and even if he doesn't struggle obviously, I think ppl will percieve it as struggling because that's how ppl (media AND fans) react when someone is under a microscope, whether they are truly struggling or not...

I think in the end though, he'll do fine and be a good deal and a good player to build our ssytem aroudn. Whether he puts up the same points next year, not likely if Souray doesn't come back, but as one journalist said, it's not really his fault if his perfect passes don't become assists on the PP, if say, Komi is his new D partner on the PP...

[JoeLassister]

Who said it was the easiest job in the world?

This is not hindsight. I think he overpaid. We will see if he did. If I posted retain Markov at any cost, Gainey did just that and then Markov played like shit and I criticized Gainey that is one thing. I have not criticized Gainey;s moves in hindsight. I have criticized them at the moment. If I am wrong, so what. I am not claiming to know everything.

This is a forum for opinions. You don't like it. so what. I don't like the fact that you take a criticism towards Gainey and suggest I go do his job.

Same as when I criticize Kovalev and somebody says why don't you go play in the NHL. Mindless drivel. You lace on the skates, or become a GM you are open

to criticism. People like you will not stop me from displaying my opinion on a board that was created for people to spout their opinion.

Read it or don't. Your choice.

I'm taking on your main opinion who seems to be : A good GM HAVE TO KNOW wich player will be a future superstar because it's his job. HE'S PAID to know EXACTLY which player just had a carreer season and won't get it again.

You seem to think athletes and agents will fall into that and sign for less money before reaching UFA. They're not dumb. Obviously, Gainey know that Markov will become that superstar and he offers big money to be sure he would accept to sign here first before July 1rst. Don Meehan is the kind of agent who build THE business in hockey. Gainey's not dealing with Markov's stepfather... He might have received some 6 or maybe 6,5 millions for 4 years elsewhere this summer, YOU NEVER KNOW. Gainey DOESN'T KNOW neither what will happen.

Maybe Markov will become an alcoholic next year and run his car down a bridge and die, WHO KNOWS??? Maybe he will win Norris trophy and then you'll claim : Gainey is a genius to have him sign for 4 years/23 millions...

Daniel Brière has been waived, Pavel Bure and Luc Robitaille drafted 116th or about, YOU NEVER KNOW, as the GM. They are speculating, and the key word in this whole game is SPECULATING.

Oh and i don't take criticism towards Gainey and suggest you to get his job, I'm 100% with Gainey on this Markov deal and i suggest to every people on this forum who are taking on Gainey for that deal to first learn this hockey business, grow up as GM in junior, then reach NHL and become that GM who will be able to read the future.

Edited May 30, 2007 by JoeLassister

[Athlétique.Canadien]

like it or not Gainey did not overpay for Markov. Read Red Fisher's lips... He paid the going market value!!!!! July 1st...

This is why I've held my support for this signing all along. Let's face it folks, it's clear Markov WAS going to command this type of money and on July 1 we are going to see one heck of a great bonanza. Money is going to be thrown at UFA's in truckloads.

The lockout - 2 years removed and where are we?

[beliveau1]

..... on July 1 we are going to see one heck of a great bonanza. Money is going to be thrown at UFA's in truckloads.

The lockout - 2 years removed and where are we?

Still at square one..... but now we just have a minimum verses maximum spending cap to oversee the mayhem and insanity that pro sports has become!!!!!!!

[Wamsley01]

I'm taking on your main opinion who seems to be : A good GM HAVE TO KNOW wich player will be a future superstar because it's his job. HE'S PAID to know EXACTLY which player just had a carreer season and won't get it again.

You seem to think athletes and agents will fall into that and sign for less money before reaching UFA. They're not dumb. Obviously, Gainey know that Markov will become that superstar and he offers big money to be sure he would accept to sign here first before July 1rst. Don Meehan is the kind of agent who build THE business in hockey. Gainey's not dealing with Markov's stepfather... He might have received some 6 or maybe 6,5 millions for 4 years elsewhere this summer, YOU NEVER KNOW. Gainey DOESN'T KNOW neither what will happen.

Maybe Markov will become an alcoholic next year and run his car down a bridge and die, WHO KNOWS??? Maybe he will win Norris trophy and then you'll claim : Gainey is a genius to have him sign for 4 years/23 millions...

Daniel Brière has been waived, Pavel Bure and Luc Robitaille drafted 116th or about, YOU NEVER KNOW, as the GM. They are speculating, and the key word in this whole game is SPECULATING.

It is impossible to know who will be a superstar, but it is called a calculated risk. You don't just throw money at players just because.

Sam Pollock was a genius but he minimized his risks by acquiring tons of picks. 6 first rounders you only need a 30% success rate to land 2 nhl players.

That day is over, but the thinking then was why risk on guys who may be NHLers when you can acquire real NHLers. Pollock was thinking outside the box.

The benefit of youth is it is cheap. If you play the one year contract game it will not be cheap if they excede expectations. 1 great year and the player goes into arbitration, compares himself to another 40 goal scorer and voila...4-5 Million a year for your cheap labour.

Markov got the going rate for a d-man today. But that does not mean he is worth it. Khabibulin got 7M a year after winning the Cup and becoming a FA that summer.

It was the going rate, but was he worth it? No chance

If Markov wins the Norris will I claim Gainey is a genius? No, because close to 6-7 million is what you should be paying for a Norris trophy winner. That is my point.

He is not at that level. Will he be? Lets hope so.

The draft is a crapshoot to an extent, but look at Trevor Timmins drafting record. Why is he more succesful than Dave Morrison of the Leafs?

To each his own, I have a certain level of expectation for a great GM. Colangelo marches to the beat of his own drummer in Toronto for the Raptors.

He defies NBA conventional wisdom and does what he thinks is right for his team and he built a perrenial powerhouse in Phoenix and is molding one

right now with the Raptors. He threw millions at Nash and the league laughed at him, 2 MVPs and what should have been the 3rd and they are kissing his ass.

He traded a Big for a Small which is a cardinal sin, and TJ Ford had a great year, and Charlie V was injury plagued and average. He brought in a European

GM as his assistant which allowed him to raid Europes top talent and what happened. They improved by almost 30 games.

THAT is a great GM. THAT is my expectation. I grew up in a time where Montreal was expected to compete for the Cup EVERY YEAR. A first round victory was greeted

with, "It took to many games, what is wrong with them?". Now a first round victory is a parade and they have not had a legitimate Cup chance since 1994.

People are more than happy to shoot for the Cup 3 years from now. I am only 33 years old. It was not that long ago.

Keep selling out the Bell Centre, and keep tempering your expectations and we will be laughed at by other fans like the Leaf fans.

Call me out if Markov wins the Norris, I don't care. I pray he does. But their are cracks in Gainey's armour that I did not notice before. If you all choose to look past, shine them up, or ignore them, that is fine with me. Won't change my perspective, expectations or opinion.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Acquiring a "Markov" or a player of his calibre is not like going to see the movie of the week. We all know it is one of the hardest positions to fill. Defenceman don't grow on trees. When you develop one as good as Markov then you have to keep a guy like that. Maybe we should let him walk and in 6 years time when we face having to ink some D for 6 million. What should we do, let him walk too?

Here are some examples of free agency gone mad:

Marc Savard $5,000,000

Adrian Aucoin $4,000,000

Zdeno Chara $7,500,000

Also, Markov is also entering his prime. That probably accounts for something as far as the negotiations go. We have him in his best years now. Also, it's not as if Gainey paid McCabe, Kaberle and Kubina. We paid 1 D lots of money. Heck, I can stand 2 D being paid high but JFJ went too far with Kubina. If Souray comes with a heavy tag and we "get away with it" I won't mind the 2 D for the big money. Not 3.

Anyway, Red has spoken and has way more credentials than any of us. I accept his judgement.

Now is this thread going to turn into a war? I hope not.

[Wamsley01]

Acquiring a "Markov" or a player of his calibre is not like going to see the movie of the week. We all know it is one of the hardest positions to fill. Defenceman don't grow on trees. When you develop one as good as Markov then you have to keep a guy like that. Maybe we should let him walk and in 6 years time when we face having to ink some D for 6 million. What should we do, let him walk too?

Here are some examples of free agency gone mad:

Marc Savard $5,000,000

Adrian Aucoin $4,000,000

Zdeno Chara $7,500,000

Also, Markov is also entering his prime. That probably accounts for something as far as the negotiations go. We have him in his best years now. Also, it's not as if Gainey paid McCabe, Kaberle and Kubina. We paid 1 D lots of money. Heck, I can stand 2 D being paid high but JFJ went too far with Kubina. If Souray comes with a heavy tag and we "get away with it" I won't mind the 2 D for the big money. Not 3.

Anyway, Red has spoken and has way more credentials than any of us. I accept his judgement.

Now is this thread going to turn into a war? I hope not.

I accepted that it was the going rate once I realized the lack of good d-men entering the free agent market.

But did anybody here expect he was going to cost almost 6M a year? I know that from every discussion that went on

about re-signing him throughout the year did not contain anybody thinking it would be that high.

Souray maybe, but not Markov. But either way, what's done is done. Let's hope he plays to that salary.

The reason people are concerned is because most of our major signings in Gaineys tenure look like this:

Theodore - 5M per - A lot of coin for a backup

Kovalev - 4.5M per - A lot of coin for a guy who has not averaged a PPG since he left Jagr

Koivu - 4.75M per - Everybody loves Saku, but he has broken the 70 Pt range 2 times in his career

Samsonov - 3.5M - Do I need to go over this one?

I am sorry, but I just can't have blind faith in Gainey anymore.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I am sorry

Don't be sorry - it's your opinion.

[JoeLassister]

I accepted that it was the going rate once I realized the lack of good d-men entering the free agent market.

But did anybody here expect he was going to cost almost 6M a year? I know that from every discussion that went on

about re-signing him throughout the year did not contain anybody thinking it would be that high.

Souray maybe, but not Markov. But either way, what's done is done. Let's hope he plays to that salary.

The reason people are concerned is because most of our major signings in Gaineys tenure look like this:

Theodore - 5M per - A lot of coin for a backup

Kovalev - 4.5M per - A lot of coin for a guy who has not averaged a PPG since he left Jagr

Koivu - 4.75M per - Everybody loves Saku, but he has broken the 70 Pt range 2 times in his career

Samsonov - 3.5M - Do I need to go over this one?

I am sorry, but I just can't have blind faith in Gainey anymore.

All I know is that Gainey is slowly building an exciting team and a pretty good one too. He made some mistakes but it will get him stronger.

[beliveau1]

.....I am sorry, but I just can't have blind faith in Gainey anymore.

One should never have blind faith in any manager or leader.

However I have to admit that Fisher is still right on this one. It is the going price. Gainey had to pay the piper on this one. Markov patrolling the blueline is a damn site more comforting to me than Souray any day of the week. The past few seasons the Habs have suffered most when this guy was out of the lineup. Is he an outright stud a la Scott Neidermeyer? Obviously not, but he is better than an Adrian Aucoin type signed for a bundle after July 1st rules around.

[Wamsley01]

All I know is that Gainey is slowly building an exciting team and a pretty good one too. He made some mistakes but it will get him stronger.

Like I said earlier, the next 2 years will show us the direction of this franchise. I am not expecting a Free Agent saviour.

I want to see the kids play and figure out if this team will turn the corner with them.

One should never have blind faith in any manager or leader.

However I have to admit that Fisher is still right on this one. It is the going price. Gainey had to pay the piper on this one. Markov patrolling the blueline is a damn site more comforting to me than Souray any day of the week. The past few seasons the Habs have suffered most when this guy was out of the lineup. Is he an outright stud a la Scott Neidermeyer? Obviously not, but he is better than an Adrian Aucoin type signed for a bundle after July 1st rules around.

Yes, but even Fisher admitted that they are paying Markov to much. Nobody saw the 5.75M number.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

We might have 5 million to spend when all is said and done. That's assuming Souray is 6. Probably a more reliable figure is 3 million wiggle room but it could be 5. Let's hope Gainey has RFA signing magic. Hopefully he can get the RFA's at an average of 1.7 to 2 millioin. Sweet. Maybe he'll surprise you Wamsley01

[Wamsley01]

We might have 5 million to spend when all is said and done. That's assuming Souray is 6. Probably a more reliable figure is 3 million wiggle room but it could be 5. Let's hope Gainey has RFA signing magic. Hopefully he can get the RFA's at an average of 1.7 to 2 millioin. Sweet. Maybe he'll surprise you Wamsley01

Let's hope so. But seeing as Ryder's production has stayed the same and has seen consecutive large raises I am not counting on it.

[JoeLassister]

Yes, but even Fisher admitted that they are paying Markov to much. Nobody saw the 5.75M number.

I bet Meehan was seing this from quite a while.

[Chris]

Fisher also said it was a no brainer resigning him and I agree. The number is fine with me (although i'm not paying it). Fans, posters whoever get caught up in numbers and so do I, When you look at players who make big bucks on this team who aren't producing, those are the guys you should be debating, not Markov.

I said it on another thread, the players in the NHL know how good Markov is and that's speaks alot more then the media or armchair GM's. (like myself). But it was a No brainer signing.

[alexstream]

I just found a new website http://www.nhlnumbers.com/mtl.html

If you look at most of the teams, you'll realise that they ALL have MINIMUM 5-10M to go UFA hunting

it's gonna be REAL ugly on the UFA market this summer folks.

[Wamsley01]

Fisher also said it was a no brainer resigning him and I agree. The number is fine with me (although i'm not paying it). Fans, posters whoever get caught up in numbers and so do I, When you look at players who make big bucks on this team who aren't producing, those are the guys you should be debating, not Markov.

I said it on another thread, the players in the NHL know how good Markov is and that's speaks alot more then the media or armchair GM's. (like myself). But it was a No brainer signing.

I agree, next season would be a write off without him. Unfortunately salaries are a huge part of pro sports these days.

Players who are underpaid are almost heroes by default, but once overpaid the target enlarges ten fold on their back.

Let's hope Markov does not try to justify the contract like guys like Richards and St. Louis did and blow a whole season.

I just found a new website http://www.nhlnumbers.com/mtl.html

If you look at most of the teams, you'll realise that they ALL have MINIMUM 5-10M to go UFA hunting

it's gonna be REAL ugly on the UFA market this summer folks.

Here is another great one

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/bizdb/nhl-salaries-search.htm

Look up Patrick Roy and look at what he was making in 1989/90. Unbelievable!! Considering today's enviroment.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Wamsley01

[BTH]

Whether Markov is worth or not, how can you blame Gainey for paying the going rate. We can all be reasonably confident that Markov/Meehan wasn't going to accept under the going rate. Gainey had no choice - he did what he HAD to do. The alternative was to let Markov walk which would force us to restart our rebuild from scratch, most likely.

[smon]

I agree with Fisher's article, but I couldn't help but chuckle at this line.

"Maybe, just maybe, he may not even be a Francois Beauchemin"

Couldn't disagree more with that one. Beauchemin isn't on the same level Markov, don't get me wrong he's a good player but even if he was on Montreal he would not be higher on the depth chart than Markov.

[Wamsley01]

Whether Markov is worth or not, how can you blame Gainey for paying the going rate. We can all be reasonably confident that Markov/Meehan wasn't going to accept under the going rate. Gainey had no choice - he did what he HAD to do. The alternative was to let Markov walk which would force us to restart our rebuild from scratch, most likely.

Like I argued before, maybe it was a mistake to let him get to this point. But it is all specualtion about whether or not he could have signed him last summer or the summer before.

I don't know, you don't know. Markov is back, I am happy about that. Let's hope that Gainey can make up for it with a bargain elsewhere.

I agree with Fisher's article, but I couldn't help but chuckle at this line.

"Maybe, just maybe, he may not even be a Francois Beauchemin"

Couldn't disagree more with that one. Beauchemin isn't on the same level Markov, don't get me wrong he's a good player but even if he was on Montreal he would not be higher on the depth chart than Markov.

Beauchemin is not better than Markov, it is not a coincidence that he began to shine when paired with Niedermayer.

[JoeLassister]

I said it on another thread, the players in the NHL know how good Markov is and that's speaks alot more then the media or armchair GM's. (like myself). But it was a No brainer signing.

True. Ovechkin once said Markov was the tougher D to face in 1 on 1.

and Wamsley and others : how do yo quote? it doesn't work for me

I just found a new website http://www.nhlnumbers.com/mtl.html

If you look at most of the teams, you'll realise that they ALL have MINIMUM 5-10M to go UFA hunting

it's gonna be REAL ugly on the UFA market this summer folks.

actually, it is an old site who's been rediricted to nhlnumbers.com but it's been 6 months or so. I don't remember what it was before...anyone?

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Let's hope so. But seeing as Ryder's production has stayed the same and has seen consecutive large raises I am not counting on it.

Also, don't forget that the Sammy trade (which I think BOb will pull off) will rusult in a depth player coming back who is signed at lower cost. A 2 million player that's almost useless, however a good depth player for us (Niinimma scenario). Better to take on a 2 million player than suffer the buyout at 1.2 million anyway. Is that deal out there for Gainey to make? I hope so. If he could it would mean another 1.5 towards the 5 million, that's 6.5..etc.

There are other tweaks, trades and options that I'm sure none of us have thought of..etc....we'll see...etc. I will NOT BE SURPRISED to see some strange moves from BOb.

[dark_faerie87]

True. Ovechkin once said Markov was the tougher D to face in 1 on 1.

and Wamsley and others : how do yo quote? it doesn't work for me

actually, it is an old site who's been rediricted to nhlnumbers.com but it's been 6 months or so. I don't remember what it was before...anyone?

Ovechkin also said that Markov is the best Russian player in the NHL in his opinion...although I'm not sure if he meant player or just out of defensemen.