Gainey's Dilemma: and the new NHL landscape and RFA,FA

[saskhab]

He wasn't allowed to make a flight to Sweden before July 1st?

Couldn't he have flown to Sweden on some business with the Sedin's and then called Forsberg from Sweden @ 12:01?

I'm not sure how that works, but I know he made a visit to Forsberg's place in the middle of the Swedish night.

About hometown discounts, Montreal has never been in a situation to really ask this of their players, either. Next year, that situation might arise (plenty of FA's, top 5 team). But you're right in saying that Kovalev might even command a higher annual salary next summer than he currently has. Remember, his contract was signed that first offseason post-lockout, when prices were extremely low because of a salary ceiling that will likely be lower than the salary floor this next season ($39m).

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm not sure how that works, but I know he made a visit to Forsberg's place in the middle of the Swedish night.

About hometown discounts, Montreal has never been in a situation to really ask this of their players, either. Next year, that situation might arise (plenty of FA's, top 5 team). But you're right in saying that Kovalev might even command a higher annual salary next summer than he currently has. Remember, his contract was signed that first offseason post-lockout, when prices were extremely low because of a salary ceiling that will likely be lower than the salary floor this next season ($39m).

I've said it before and I'll say it again. For exactly the reasons Saskhab articulates - plus the fact the he'll be 36 - we should seriously thinking about trading Kovalev, preferably BEFORE the new season starts because 1) his value is as high now as it will ever be and 2) you don't want to move a key piece of your core midway through a season, especially with a young team that looks up to him. You want to give everyone time to adjust.

I'm just saying.

[Wamsley01]

I'm not sure how that works, but I know he made a visit to Forsberg's place in the middle of the Swedish night.

About hometown discounts, Montreal has never been in a situation to really ask this of their players, either. Next year, that situation might arise (plenty of FA's, top 5 team). But you're right in saying that Kovalev might even command a higher annual salary next summer than he currently has. Remember, his contract was signed that first offseason post-lockout, when prices were extremely low because of a salary ceiling that will likely be lower than the salary floor this next season ($39m).

Even so, he is making 4.5M. Like you brought up earlier who is going to sign a 36 year old to more than that?

How many 35+ year old forwards that signed their contracts after the age of 35 are making more than 4.5M?

I mean Tkachuk, Selanne, Modano, Shanahan all signed for less than 4.5M. Sundin is the only forward I can think of who signed a larger base salary

than Kovalev after the age of 35.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Wamsley01

[BTH]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. For exactly the reasons Saskhab articulates - plus the fact the he'll be 36 - we should seriously thinking about trading Kovalev, preferably BEFORE the new season starts because 1) his value is as high now as it will ever be and 2) you don't want to move a key piece of your core midway through a season, especially with a young team that looks up to him. You want to give everyone time to adjust.

I'm just saying.

You are looking too long-term. If you trade your old players at their highest value every time you can, you will always be putting off a Cup run and it will just never run. This cycle of getting more and more youth will never end. Eventually, you have to hang on to some vets and go for the Cup with them. We are in the perfect position since we already have a bunch of youth in the system even if none of them are at or ever will be at Kovalev's level. You're being too safe, we finally have a legitimate shot at the Cup, it is time we seize it. Imagine if Detroit had traded Chelios, Hasek and Lidstrom before the season so that their team wouldn't be a wreck if they didn't manage to win the Cup. We are in a position to win - trade Kovalev for Marleau and we are not.

[sbhatt]

You are looking too long-term. If you trade your old players at their highest value every time you can, you will always be putting off a Cup run and it will just never run. This cycle of getting more and more youth will never end. Eventually, you have to hang on to some vets and go for the Cup with them. We are in the perfect position since we already have a bunch of youth in the system even if none of them are at or ever will be at Kovalev's level. You're being too safe, we finally have a legitimate shot at the Cup, it is time we seize it. Imagine if Detroit had traded Chelios, Hasek and Lidstrom before the season so that their team wouldn't be a wreck if they didn't manage to win the Cup. We are in a position to win - trade Kovalev for Marleau and we are not.

Well said. And besides that, trading your best player seldom works out well.

[Wamsley01]

You are looking too long-term. If you trade your old players at their highest value every time you can, you will always be putting off a Cup run and it will just never run. This cycle of getting more and more youth will never end. Eventually, you have to hang on to some vets and go for the Cup with them. We are in the perfect position since we already have a bunch of youth in the system even if none of them are at or ever will be at Kovalev's level. You're being too safe, we finally have a legitimate shot at the Cup, it is time we seize it. Imagine if Detroit had traded Chelios, Hasek and Lidstrom before the season so that their team wouldn't be a wreck if they didn't manage to win the Cup. We are in a position to win - trade Kovalev for Marleau and we are not.

Chelios was coming off a great season 10-12 years ago when he was 34-36. He is now 46 year old.

Hasek's hasn't had a dominant season since his first go around with Detroit.

Trading a 5th-6th Defenceman and a backup goalie wouldn't have made a major dent in their 2008 Stanley Cup chase.

Hasek hasn't even played in the last 9 games.

Kovalev is nowhere near Lidstrom's league in impact on his team. Lidstrom just had another Norris season,

and will probably rewarded Norris trophy number 6.

Everybody has fallen once again for the siren song of Kovalev's ability. You are acting as though Kovalev didn't just

sandbag the season in 2006-07. The guy is just as capable of dropping a lemon next year as he does of dropping 90 points.

Cucumber never suggested dealing him for nothing, he suggested many times that an Alex Tanguay/Marleau deal is something that he would look at.

Maybe the Habs get Marleau, Kovalev would have pouted for 3 months and Marleau saves the season because the Canadiens don't suffer

from a 56 point 1st line pouting Right Winger. If the 2008 Kovalev showed up in 2007 who knows what the Habs would have accomplished.

Your analagy would have worked if you said "what if Detroit traded Lidstrom for Pronger" when they wanted to take a run at the Cup.

Marleau has outscored Kovalev in the last 4 seasons combined and has outpointed him in 3 of those 4. That is equal return.

I wouldn't deal Kovy unless it was the right player or proper package, but trading Mr. Inconsistent at his highest point in 7 years is far from

a terrible idea. And it far from sandbags a Stanley Cup run in the next couple of years.

Kovalev's enigmatic personality and inconsistent performances will never leave my mind. If the success of your franchise depends on him

you are essentially screwed.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Helmethead]

Chelios was coming off a great season 10-12 years ago when he was 34-36. He is now 46 year old.

Hasek's hasn't had a dominant season since his first go around with Detroit.

Trading a 5th-6th Defenceman and a backup goalie wouldn't have made a major dent in their 2008 Stanley Cup chase.

Hasek hasn't even played in the last 9 games.

Kovalev is nowhere near Lidstrom's league in impact on his team. Lidstrom just had another Norris season,

and will probably rewarded Norris trophy number 6.

Everybody has fallen once again for the siren song of Kovalev's ability. You are acting as though Kovalev didn't just

sandbag the season in 2006-07. The guy is just as capable of dropping a lemon next year as he does of dropping 90 points.

Maybe the Habs get Marleau, Kovalev would have pouted for 3 months and Marleau saves the season because the Canadiens don't suffer

from a 56 point 1st line pouting Right Winger. If the 2008 Kovalev showed up in 2007 who knows what the Habs would have accomplished.

Your analagy would have worked if you said "what if Detroit traded Lidstrom for Pronger" when they wanted to take a run at the Cup.

Marleau has outscored Kovalev in the last 4 seasons combined and has outpointed him in 3 of those 4. That is equal return.

Cucumber never suggested dealing him for nothing, he suggested many times that an Alex Tanguay/Marleau deal is something that he would look at.

I wouldn't deal Kovy unless it was the right player or proper package, but trading Mr. Inconsistent at his highest point in 7 years is far from

a terrible idea. And it far from sandbags a Stanley Cup run in the next couple of years.

Kovalev's enigmatic personality and inconsistent performances will never leave my mind. If the success of your franchise depends on him

you are essentially screwed.

Kovalev is like that really hot girlfriend that cheats on you. The one that you resent when u find out she's cranking the guy with the 8-pack at the gym.

As soon as you muster up enough balls to dump her, she pulls a character-switcheroo and becomes the ideal sexy, g-string wearing, beer carrying, excretion swallowing, girlfriend that every guy fancies.

You think you've converted her...But have you really??

I think there are 3 options..

#1 - Take her out so the rest of the women can see that you have a sexy vixen by ur side (women seem to love men who are attached to fine women). Once you've identified a younger woman that you think is an upgrade, get rid of her...

#2 - Head down to your local bank. Take out a second mortgage on your house, then mosey on down to Birks and buy her that 3.5 Carat Engagement Ring she's been obsessing over since she was old enough to pee.

#3 - Enjoy the ride for another year, and then amicably part ways. Oh and keep your fingers crossed that she'll be the loving girlfriend of last year and not the year before.

Anyway...I'm with the Cuccumber on this one. Something just doesn't rub me the right way about him. If you can package him with one of our 20's something superstar in the making (Higgins) and a defensive prospect (Hi there Mr. Fisher) or the rights to a Russian Defector (Komrad Emelin or Perezhogin) for an upper echellon, 1st line, goal scoring, NBLWH (Natural Born Leader With Heart), I say you do it in a heart beat.

[Zowpeb]

Anyway...I'm with the Cuccumber on this one. Something just doesn't rub me the right way about him. If you can package him with one of our 20's something superstar in the making (Higgins) and a defensive prospect (Hi there Mr. Fisher) or the rights to a Russian Defector (Komrad Emelin or Perezhogin) for an upper echellon, 1st line, goal scoring, NBLWH (Natural Born Leader With Heart), I say you do it in a heart beat.

GO with option #1...every time.

If you were to deal Kovalev, Higgins and Fischer/Emelin you better get a damn good player in return. Even if it meant adding another prospect/pick. I'm talking a legit, consistent, 90 point workhorse, who is signed for 3+ more years and can wear the C. If you go so far as to deal one of your top prospects and 2 guys from your top 6 forwards (arguably top 4...and considering the Habs goal scoring this past season that's saying something).

I'm talking about a return that would mean a player like Lecavalier, Thornton, etc.

Further, you could just go out and sign Sundin for free...assuming you can get him to play here.

I'd have no problem simply dealing Kovalev, by himself, for a good, gritty, two way, 2nd liner of the 60 point per year level. Then I'd try like hell to sign Sundin for 2 years...even at big $$$.

The Habs would have tremendous depth down the middle and good young wingers that are improving and growing every year. They could even try Koivu or Pleks on a wing if needed.

[Chris]

No, you take option #3. Kovalev has one more year on his contract. He is playing for his last NHL contract, which should motivate him to play as well as last year. You just let him walk at the end of his contract. The youth will be older more experienced and able to handle his loss.

You don't trade players like Higgins, his problem is the media and fans and sometimes he thinks he is a top line LW. He isn't, he is the perfect 3rd line LW. Does everything well, but he isn't a finisher.

There are some UFA that are interesting as many posters suggested. Only Hossa should be considered for longer then a year contract.

I've said it before DO NOT sign any current habs UFA's, no reason to, Smoke was the only one who showed up in the playoffs. Chipchura can do the same job next year. Streit was invisible in the playoffs, people wonder what he was made of, well the playoffs let you know.

Sundin: No brainer, big, tough, wins faceoffs, scores big goals. Would look nice with Lats on his wing. Problem is he not much of a leader, similar to Koivu, never made a difference for his team in the playoffs.

Rolston: Can play any position, great speed, kills penalties, has a rocket from the point on the PP. Would look good with Higgins Lapierre.

Shannahan: A couple years too late for me but he is gritty, a RW to play with Koivu and SK. Plays physical and goes to the net. Could teach Lats a thing or 2. I think he's done but what do i know.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the summer.

[Wamsley01]

No, you take option #3. Kovalev has one more year on his contract. He is playing for his last NHL contract, which should motivate him to play as well as last year. You just let him walk at the end of his contract. The youth will be older more experienced and able to handle his loss.

You don't trade players like Higgins, his problem is the media and fans and sometimes he thinks he is a top line LW. He isn't, he is the perfect 3rd line LW. Does everything well, but he isn't a finisher.

There are some UFA that are interesting as many posters suggested. Only Hossa should be considered for longer then a year contract.

I've said it before DO NOT sign any current habs UFA's, no reason to, Smoke was the only one who showed up in the playoffs. Chipchura can do the same job next year. Streit was invisible in the playoffs, people wonder what he was made of, well the playoffs let you know.

Sundin: No brainer, big, tough, wins faceoffs, scores big goals. Would look nice with Lats on his wing. Problem is he not much of a leader, similar to Koivu, never made a difference for his team in the playoffs.

Rolston: Can play any position, great speed, kills penalties, has a rocket from the point on the PP. Would look good with Higgins Lapierre.

Shannahan: A couple years too late for me but he is gritty, a RW to play with Koivu and SK. Plays physical and goes to the net. Could teach Lats a thing or 2. I think he's done but what do i know.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the summer.

Having Shanahan mentor Latendresse would probably be worth the 1 year 2M contract. If he has anything left in the tank it is a bonus.

I am dreaming of Sundin, but I think he is too loyal to the morons running MLSE.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Wamsley01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't like option #3 at all. It seems to me you should try to replace the elite talent Kovalev represents, not just let him walk. I'm guess I'm advocating a middle position between the school that says 'this guy will lead us to a Cup, so re-sign him until he's 38' and #3, which says we'll be just fine if we lose him for nothing. That's a big hole to fill. Try to fill it pre-emptively, with a trade for a younger player of comparable talent.

But only do that AFTER UFA season is over. First you need to figure out who (if anyone) you've added to your roster. Then decide what to do about Kovalev. And of course, as Wamsley emphasizes, only deal Kovy if you're getting full value back. (Guys like Marleau and Tanguay, more-or-less elite players who seem to be a poor fit with their current teams for whatever reason, are obvious targets, but Marleau will likely be staying put now that Wilson's out. In any case, those are just examples...).

Interesting thread, keep it coming.

[Chris]

If they land Hossa he would be the replacement. He is the only one out there who makes sense for long term. You could certainly see The kosty's and pleks as a threatening line, then you have Lats, Hossa and a centre as your other top line. BG has shown he won't trade the youth for a big fish, Atlanta asked to much and Bob wouldn't bite.

He will stck to the plan, he will need to sign a big fish. Kovalex is fine but there is upgrades out there, especially at 38 when his contract is up.

[saskhab]

Trading Kovalev for Tanguay.... one 2009 UFA for another. Yeah, that gets Montreal ahead a lot for a post-2009 world.

By these "trade Kovalev" comments, I get the feeling that the advocates of this position feel that the team won't ever learn to perform when Kovalev isn't dominant. I have more faith in the rest of the team, I guess. I feel Andrei Kostitsyn will eventually be good enough on his own (or with his brother), giving the Habs two potential lines with elite talents on them.

In short, I don't think ditching Kovalev is what is neccessary to grow the team further.

I also don't think you can package a 36 year old and get a 25-28 year old 30 goal scorer in return.

I understand the letting Kovalev walk position, if it becomes a financial move, more than the trading him one. But I don't understand trading Kovalev to acquire a player who will command a higher salary than him. That would pretty much guarantee we'd lose another player from our core when their contract comes up.

But I also don't understand why you wouldn't try and re-sign a player who can still contribute a lot to the team and wants to stay.

[Wamsley01]

Trading Kovalev for Tanguay.... one 2009 UFA for another. Yeah, that gets Montreal ahead a lot for a post-2009 world.

By these "trade Kovalev" comments, I get the feeling that the advocates of this position feel that the team won't ever learn to perform when Kovalev isn't dominant. I have more faith in the rest of the team, I guess. I feel Andrei Kostitsyn will eventually be good enough on his own (or with his brother), giving the Habs two potential lines with elite talents on them.

In short, I don't think ditching Kovalev is what is neccessary to grow the team further.

I also don't think you can package a 36 year old and get a 25-28 year old 30 goal scorer in return.

I understand the letting Kovalev walk position, if it becomes a financial move, more than the trading him one. But I don't understand trading Kovalev to acquire a player who will command a higher salary than him. That would pretty much guarantee we'd lose another player from our core when their contract comes up.

But I also don't understand why you wouldn't try and re-sign a player who can still contribute a lot to the team and wants to stay.

C.C. brought up Marleau/Tanguay 6 months ago in trade Koivu talks and only used them as starting blocks and examples.

So breaking down why Tanguay doesn't work is splitting hairs.

As for not being able to package a 36 year old and get a 25-28 year old, I didn't think you could trade Zhitnik for Coburn and

it happened last season. Luongo got traded for Bertuzzi. So nothing is impossible.

Nobody has suggested that Kovalev has to be moved at all cost, all that is being suggested is to test his market value at it's top end.

It is not a new concept to sell high and buy low, and it is all that is being suggested.

Kovalev is a commodity that OVERPERFORMED this season. When commodities outperform their true worth, I would find it hard to

understand why you would not try to sell it for possiblly a younger underperforming asset.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Zowpeb]

No, you take option #3. Kovalev has one more year on his contract. He is playing for his last NHL contract, which should motivate him to play as well as last year. You just let him walk at the end of his contract. The youth will be older more experienced and able to handle his loss.

You don't trade players like Higgins, his problem is the media and fans and sometimes he thinks he is a top line LW. He isn't, he is the perfect 3rd line LW. Does everything well, but he isn't a finisher.

There are some UFA that are interesting as many posters suggested. Only Hossa should be considered for longer then a year contract.

I've said it before DO NOT sign any current habs UFA's, no reason to, Smoke was the only one who showed up in the playoffs. Chipchura can do the same job next year. Streit was invisible in the playoffs, people wonder what he was made of, well the playoffs let you know.

Sundin: No brainer, big, tough, wins faceoffs, scores big goals. Would look nice with Lats on his wing. Problem is he not much of a leader, similar to Koivu, never made a difference for his team in the playoffs.

Rolston: Can play any position, great speed, kills penalties, has a rocket from the point on the PP. Would look good with Higgins Lapierre.

Shannahan: A couple years too late for me but he is gritty, a RW to play with Koivu and SK. Plays physical and goes to the net. Could teach Lats a thing or 2. I think he's done but what do i know.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the summer.

I couldn't disagree more about Sundin not being a leader. I hate the Leafs, I hate their fans but I'll give Sundin a world of credit.

He carried them on his back for years. Their late season surge was due largely to him. The guy is a warrior who does it all. He wore the C in a city that is as obsessive as Montreal. Saying he never made a difference is unfair considering the Leafs hadn't given him a legit winger for the past 5-6 years...maybe longer.

I like Rolston and think he'd be a good fit on the Habs...he'd also leave enough cap room to sign another player.

I don't like the idea of signing Shannahan due to age. He proved me wrong this year but the guy is ancient...

I like the idea of a Hossa signing to a point but he'll warrant a longer term contract and would tie up a lot of money that will be needed for guys like Price, AK, SK, Higgins, Komisarek, etc...that's why I think Sundin is such a good fit, he'll step in for 2 years to really increase the odds of winning short term without costing us our promising youth in the long term.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Zowpeb

[saskhab]

C.C. brought up Marleau/Tanguay 6 months ago in trade Koivu talks and only used them as starting blocks and examples.

So breaking down why Tanguay doesn't work is splitting hairs.

As for not being able to package a 36 year old and get a 25-28 year old, I didn't think you could trade Zhitnik for Coburn and

it happened last season. Luongo got traded for Bertuzzi. So nothing is impossible.

Nobody has suggested that Kovalev has to be moved at all cost, all that is being suggested is to test his market value at it's top end.

It is not a new concept to sell high and buy low, and it is all that is being suggested.

Kovalev is a commodity that OVERPERFORMED this season. When commodities outperform their true worth, I would find it hard to

understand why you would not try to sell it for possiblly a younger underperforming asset.

I guess I've misunderstood this. I don't bring up the possibility of trading players unless I feel they HAVE to be moved, or we have a pressing need that can only be addressed by trading such an asset. I don't see this with Kovalev, and so I really don't see why this is being discussed.

From what I've read of Chicoutimi Cucumber in this thread is that we should trade Kovalev now so we aren't stuck with nothing in return next summer. That, to me, is different than what you are saying here, which is basically trying to exploit a moron out there. I'm all for exploiting morons, but I don't think we'll find one.

And Kovalev is better than Tanguay anyways. Marleau, well, not enough of a difference for me. Both of those two are support players... Kovalev can carry teams. Neither of those two have carried teams and neither ever will.

I guess I like to think I am aiming higher when I saw we re-sign Kovalev to short term deals than if we trade him. If you trade your leading scorer every summer (as fans in Montreal seem to want to do every summer) you'll never, ever, win a Cup. Simple as that.

[Ecurb]

I don't feel moving Kovalev is a wise move. I understand the concept of

selling high and buying low. But, I don't really understand why some you

of think we'd get a player like Marleau or Tanguay. Other GM's would be

leery about adding Kovalev because they wouldn't know what they were

getting.

Kovalev was the first big UFA name we were able to add to the team. He

seems genuinely happy here and except for the previous season when he

battled several injuries, has produced. He's the closest we have to a power

forward and is a playoff performer. He's signed for a fairly cheap amount

considering what he capable of doing. What type of message would that

send to other UFA's that might be thinking of signing here?

Not only do I feel that we shouldn't trade Kovalev, but I feel that we should

be looking to add another veteran. Whether that veteran be Sundin,Jagr,

Selanne,Shanahan,Rolston or a Holik is subject to debate. But, all bring

skills that can help this team and reduce the pressure on our young players.

But, I do agree with all of you that say if we do sign a vet it should only be

for a year or two.

Finally, I've read that the other Russian/Belarussian players look up to

Kovalev. What type of message would trading Kovalev send to them?

Could that then be a factor in whether the Kostitsyn siblings decide if they

want to remain Habs longterm? Could that be a factor in Emelin deciding

whether he wants to come to the NHL after his contract in Russia expires?

I just see too many possible negatives in trading Kovalev. I say keep

him, lets see what type of season he has and take it from there.

[Wamsley01]

I guess I've misunderstood this. I don't bring up the possibility of trading players unless I feel they HAVE to be moved, or we have a pressing need that can only be addressed by trading such an asset. I don't see this with Kovalev, and so I really don't see why this is being discussed.

From what I've read of Chicoutimi Cucumber in this thread is that we should trade Kovalev now so we aren't stuck with nothing in return next summer. That, to me, is different than what you are saying here, which is basically trying to exploit a moron out there. I'm all for exploiting morons, but I don't think we'll find one.

And Kovalev is better than Tanguay anyways. Marleau, well, not enough of a difference for me. Both of those two are support players... Kovalev can carry teams. Neither of those two have carried teams and neither ever will.

I guess I like to think I am aiming higher when I saw we re-sign Kovalev to short term deals than if we trade him. If you trade your leading scorer every summer (as fans in Montreal seem to want to do every summer) you'll never, ever, win a Cup. Simple as that.

C.C is suggesting that we look to see what type of value we can get from another team and trade Kovalev at his peak.

Simple as that. I agree.

I have also said you only trade him for the right price. So deduce what you want, but all of my threads have said the same thing.

As for exploiting a moron, I am not writing off any scenario before it presents itself because dumb GMs will always exist,

desperate GMs will always exist and Salary dumps, will always exist.

I am amazed that people have forgotten that Kovalev has put up 70+ points once in the last 4 seasons. He has dropped a couple

of 40 point stinkers in between and has a been an underachiever his WHOLE career. Seeing as half this board has forgotten is as well

I see no reason why some stupid GM would not roll the dice on him.

As for Kovalev carrying a team. Where and when? What has Kovalev ever carried a team too? A couple of first round

playoff wins? Where did Kovalev carry the Habs in 2006 when Koivu went down to injury? Where did he carry them last season when

he pouted all season and publicly slammed the coach and came down with a mysterious bout of vertigo? What was he doing when the

Habs were spiralling to a collapse in the first round before the return of Koivu?

It is surface level BS to credit Kovalev with the success of the team this season. He carried it no more than Komisarek,

Markov, Price, Plekanec. Remove any of those elements and this team does not win the conference and may have fought for it's life to make

the playoffs. This season was a collaborative team effort and people were all over Kovy's jock because he ######ed us so hard the year before.

It is amazing that a guy can not try for a full season, then play up to his potential and have it come off like he did us a favour by doing what

he is supposed to do.

My aim is the Stanley Cup. If it takes 3 seasons to get that, so be it. If it means trading Kovalev, so be it. If it means trading Price, then do it.

Nobody is untouchable, nobody is untradeable and nobody is beyond being mentioned as trade bait.

What C.C. is saying makes 100% sense to me. If you cannot see it, that is your prerogative.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Wamsley01]

I don't feel moving Kovalev is a wise move. I understand the concept of

selling high and buying low. But, I don't really understand why some you

of think we'd get a player like Marleau or Tanguay. Other GM's would be

leery about adding Kovalev because they wouldn't know what they were

getting.

Kovalev was the first big UFA name we were able to add to the team. He

seems genuinely happy here and except for the previous season when he

battled several injuries, has produced. He's the closest we have to a power

forward and is a playoff performer. He's signed for a fairly cheap amount

considering what he capable of doing. What type of message would that

send to other UFA's that might be thinking of signing here?

Not only do I feel that we shouldn't trade Kovalev, but I feel that we should

be looking to add another veteran. Whether that veteran be Sundin,Jagr,

Selanne,Shanahan,Rolston or a Holik is subject to debate. But, all bring

skills that can help this team and reduce the pressure on our young players.

But, I do agree with all of you that say if we do sign a vet it should only be

for a year or two.

Finally, I've read that the other Russian/Belarussian players look up to

Kovalev. What type of message would trading Kovalev send to them?

Could that then be a factor in whether the Kostitsyn siblings decide if they

want to remain Habs longterm? Could that be a factor in Emelin deciding

whether he wants to come to the NHL after his contract in Russia expires?

I just see too many possible negatives in trading Kovalev. I say keep

him, lets see what type of season he has and take it from there.

No specific scenario has been presented, so

Would I trade Kovalev for a 1st round pick? No

Would I trade Kovalev for a prospect? No

Would I trade Kovalev for a Marleau type player? Yes

But I don't think the possibility is something that should be A. Mocked or B. Dismissed

I am not going to dismiss a scenario that has not unfolded yet. There are to many factors that could arise this off season.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Wamsley01

[saskhab]

No specific scenario has been presented, so

Would I trade Kovalev for a 1st round pick? No

Would I trade Kovalev for a prospect? No

Would I trade Kovalev for a Marleau type player? Yes

But I don't think the possibility is something that should be A. Mocked or B. Dismissed

I am not going to dismiss a scenario that has not unfolded yet. There are to many factors that could arise this off season.

Well, I'm not going to comment on a scenario that hasn't arisen yet, so.

Look, it sends a terrible message to your team to trade your best player. Plain and simple. Kovalev draws the opposition's best players and makes it easier for other players as a result. You can trash on Alex for his inconsistent performances, but right now we've had 2 good years out of 3 with him and he's entering a contract year with nothing to suggest he'll put up a stinker... he's healthy, he's motivated, and he's wanted. It's a great situation.

To me, the devil you know is better than the one you don't.... and Tanguay and Marleaus are rumored to be available because they too, are devils.

[Habsfan]

I just see too many possible negatives in trading Kovalev. I say keep

him, lets see what type of season he has and take it from there.

Look, it sends a terrible message to your team to trade your best player. Plain and simple. Kovalev draws the opposition's best players and makes it easier for other players as a result. You can trash on Alex for his inconsistent performances, but right now we've had 2 good years out of 3 with him and he's entering a contract year with nothing to suggest he'll put up a stinker... he's healthy, he's motivated, and he's wanted. It's a great situation.

I agree with both of you!

However, if a very good offer were to come along for Kovy, I'd definitely want Bob to take a look at it!

By saying a "very good offer", I don't mean Tanguay for Kovalev! That, to me is not a "very good offer"!

[Wamsley01]

Well, I'm not going to comment on a scenario that hasn't arisen yet, so.

Look, it sends a terrible message to your team to trade your best player. Plain and simple. Kovalev draws the opposition's best players and makes it easier for other players as a result. You can trash on Alex for his inconsistent performances, but right now we've had 2 good years out of 3 with him and he's entering a contract year with nothing to suggest he'll put up a stinker... he's healthy, he's motivated, and he's wanted. It's a great situation.

To me, the devil you know is better than the one you don't.... and Tanguay and Marleaus are rumored to be available because they too, are devils.

So Kovalev is so valuable that trading him would derail our Cup run next season, demoralize the young russians on the Habs, is the best player on the team,

but the Habs would have to exploit a moron to make a strong deal for him?

If he is the best player on a team that won the Eastern Conference how come in your opinion he will return nothing in a deal

and a GM would have to be a moron to give up anything for him.

Yet the price set on the best player on a non playoff team wearing Blue and White who is 2 years older, was expected to return a boatload at the

trade deadline for God's team even though he was going to be a UFA in 3 months and had an inferior season is greater?

The funny thing is you say there is nothing to suggest that he will put up a stinker, yet you have devalued him on the trade market under the

exact principal that the rest of the league feels HE MAY put up another stinker. The reason Sundin is worth more on the trade market is because

he comes to play every night and has so for close to 20 years. Something that nobody who has watched Kovalev for the last 3 seasons can claim

with a straight face.

I demand more than 2 of 3 good seasons from the best player on my favourite team. Hence I do not value him as the best player.

Most talented, YES! Best player, NO! Just like I do not think that Mike Ribiero is the best player on the Dallas Stars because he lead them in scoring.

I would trade him in a heartbeat if I felt the return was strong. But I would trade Price for the right return and I have been accused of defending

him and maintaining a huge bias.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Wamsley01

[BTH]

Chelios was coming off a great season 10-12 years ago when he was 34-36. He is now 46 year old.

Hasek's hasn't had a dominant season since his first go around with Detroit.

Trading a 5th-6th Defenceman and a backup goalie wouldn't have made a major dent in their 2008 Stanley Cup chase.

Hasek hasn't even played in the last 9 games.

Kovalev is nowhere near Lidstrom's league in impact on his team. Lidstrom just had another Norris season,

and will probably rewarded Norris trophy number 6.

You missed the entire point and are just arguing for the sake of it here. I know you understood what I was trying to say, there was really no reason for all this. I named three of their oldest players who still had some value to the team. Chelios is still a big part of that team, by the way. Not a superstar anymore, but they might not be the unstoppable team they are now without his guidance and leadership.

Everybody has fallen once again for the siren song of Kovalev's ability. You are acting as though Kovalev didn't just

sandbag the season in 2006-07. The guy is just as capable of dropping a lemon next year as he does of dropping 90 points.

I was a fan of his even after 06-07 so I'm not falling into any trap. I know perfectly well what the "risk" of hanging onto our best player is - but it seems pretty small in comparison to the risk of trading him. The idea that he might have a bad season isn't enough to trade him. After all, Marleau is also coming off a bad season, so he is just as prone to a meltdown, that is, if he wouldn't already be considered a reclamation project.

It's trading an unpredictable player at his highest value for an unpredictable player at his lowest value.

Cucumber never suggested dealing him for nothing, he suggested many times that an Alex Tanguay/Marleau deal is something that he would look at.

I'm aware. In my post, I specifically mentioned Marleau, I assumed you were reading it.

I wouldn't deal Kovy unless it was the right player or proper package, but trading Mr. Inconsistent at his highest point in 7 years is far from

a terrible idea. And it far from sandbags a Stanley Cup run in the next couple of years.

Kovalev's enigmatic personality and inconsistent performances will never leave my mind. If the success of your franchise depends on him

you are essentially screwed.

Yes, if there is an absolutely incredible deal on the table, go for it. But I would say the same thing for literally any player in the league. My point is that I can't see any realistic offer helping our team out in any way and that includes players like Tanguay and Marleau.

No one can guarantee that Kovalev will repeat his 84 points but we can't just write him off as a bust before the season (let alone the offseason) even begins. Let's remember that right now, chances are that he has a good year next year. Another bad year would be the "unlucky" scenario, it isn't the most likely thing to happen. It is also a contract year for him, he may have a chip on his shoulder for being ignored by the Russian team and he is coming off a great season. These are all good reasons to think the risk is minimal this year.

I don't think the success of our franchise depends on him. But if it did, we wouldn't be screwed, we would just be taking a bit of a risk. Is relying on Marleau any less of a risk? He's starting to get a bad playoff reputation - not that I believe in such garbage -so he isn't any more of a sure thing.

Basically, I'm saying the same thing as saskhab - trading your best player (or the guy who's currently our most valuable player) is never a good idea to begin with, but trading him without a reason is the worst. I see that your reason is that you're scared he'll phone in the 08-09 season but what other alternative is there?

Do you really think Marleau would not only be a safer option than Kovalev, but also give us a better chance at a Cup run? I just don't think so. Besides, I've said it plenty of times, our biggest need isn't at C. As a matter of fact, trading Kovalev, letting Ryder walk and bringing in Marleau would leave us looking very shallow on the RW.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, Marleau has this advantage on Kovy: he's hugely-talented help in a position where we've long needed help (centre); and he's significantly younger - hardly an insignificant consideration. His dip last year is widely attributable to a conflict with Ron Wilson, which is why he might have been available in the first place. Tanguay would, I think need to be part of a package, although I'm not 100% convinced of that, because he's more versatile than Kovy and also younger. In any case, it's kind of futile to argue over hypotheticals like that. My point was certainly not that we dump Kovelev. I don't understand why some people think of trades in terms of 'getting rid of' player X or Y; I hate that 'addition by subtraction' BS. No, my point was that we should sniff around to see if we can't make a lateral move to get a comparable player back - i.e., an upper-echelon, more-or-less star-calibre player - who might be younger and perhaps less erratic. In other words, Wamsley has understood my position perfectly and taken the time to articulate it better than I have done myself.

As for why other GMs would make a deal like that: it has to do with specific situations. That's why I mentioned Marleau and Tanguay; not because I've got a hard-on for these guys in particular but because both players are elite talents who seem to have fallen in their coaches' or managements' bad books. You won't get Marleau for a Michael Ryder, but when you dangle Kovalev the equation probably changes quite a bit.

Edited May 16, 2008 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[MFT77]

After reading all this 'trade Kovalev' stuff i've got to weigh in that he was the Habs best player this year. Why think about getting rid of him unless the offer is for a top talent. Tanguay, definitely not. Marleau, not really.

Kovalev proved his worth and played as hard as anyone on the Habs. Sometimes he tries moves that don't work but he was one of the main reason for the great Habs offense and their strong PP. Think about getting rid of the dead weight, the likes of Begin, Smolinski, Kostopolous, Bouillon, Breezer, Dandy. Wouldn't be upset if not of them are back. Some might question this but they are no better than 4th liners and 6th or 7th d-man. They all bring something to the table that could be easily replaced.

I like to see the Habs with all of their young talent growing with some of the Vets. But i don't want a bunch of 3rd liners and 4th liners that people would rather have than the better players.

Keep Kovy and maybe resign him for a few more years if he wants.