Spending Money - Part Deux

[Athlétique.Canadien]

BOb won't commit to unloading depth until (if) Sundin is signed. Maybe BOb will sign Demitra. Who knows what's going to happen? Dandenault would most likely be moved for a later pick to help a team like LA get to the cap floor. Moving Dandenault before we acquire more players is definitely not Gainey's style. He'll hold on all depth before he recruits I believe. We lost the versatility in Streit but Dandy can still fill the role of a D playing forward.

[Ecurb]

A couple of points here:

1. If Sundin is signed, Chipchura doesn't make the team. Scratch him off the list. I'd also drop Stewart, he's included on my total.

2. If Sundin is signed, Dandy is going. This has been said many times as well.

3. The RFA's shouldn't require a lot. O'Byrne should accept his qualifying offer, which is $590 000 + 10%, so $649 000. Gorges and Halak I can't see getting much more than $1m each. Then the 7th d-man should be around $750 000. So yes, I do expect us to come in under $4m for all 4 players.

So that means we should be able to comfortably sign Sundin at $7m per. $7.5m gets tighter, but could be doable. $8m does seem to require an additional player getting moved.

I think your right, if we do sign Sundin, Chipchura will start the year in Hamilton. He just needs

to play.

And I agree with everything else you wrote.

I really want us to sign Sundin, but Fedorov does intrigue me as maybe a plan B.

I had thought the trade route should be plan B, but Washington is running out of

cap space, Nylander should be back. Maybe Fedorov doesn't fit for them.

Four things I like about Fedorov. He's a fine shutdown 3rd line C capable of 40-50

points. He's probably only going to want a short term contract. He can play D and

makes Dandenault completely obsolete. He won't cost Sundin money, maybe half,

and lets us make another move if need be.

[Fanpuck33]

The RFA's shouldn't require a lot. O'Byrne should accept his qualifying offer, which is $590 000 + 10%, so $649 000. Gorges and Halak I can't see getting much more than $1m each.

Why would O'Byrne settle for his qualifying offer? He's going to be a starter this season and he's knows it. He'll be looking for closer to a million bucks. Gorges should get about a million, since he has more experience. Halak believes he can be a starter and will want younger starter money, not young backup money. Gainey himself has said he wants Halak to challenge Price for the starting job. That surely drives up Halak's demands. But even with those numbers, I will say for the millionth time that we'll have no room left under the cap for emergency callups if Sundin signs for 8 million. Even dropping Begin doesn't help, because Chipchura would then get his lineup spot, and he isn't much cheaper.

[MFT77]

I'd have to say that O'byrne does not really have much bargaining power and will pretty much have to settle with what BG offers. His spot looks to be alongside Hamrlik, but is by no means guaranteed. If he wants to play hardball, then BG can look at Brisebois for about 700,000 or so. Halak should get a little more, but again the young guys in this system do not have alot of bargaining power, unless they are a major impact player that a team wants to sign long-term.

[JAB]

Gorges should get the most money out of our RFAs based on his 2 years of full time nhl experience...i see him making between 1 - 1.5 milllion. Obyrne and halak should come very cheap since they both have had less than 1 year in the league. I expect halak to make between 750,000 - 1 mil and obyrne should make close to his qualifying offer.

Im pretty sure chipchura's salary is already added to the cap (nhlscap.com) therefore by replacing one of our 4th liners with chipchura we save cap space.

[saskhab]

Why would O'Byrne settle for his qualifying offer? He's going to be a starter this season and he's knows it. He'll be looking for closer to a million bucks. Gorges should get about a million, since he has more experience. Halak believes he can be a starter and will want younger starter money, not young backup money. Gainey himself has said he wants Halak to challenge Price for the starting job. That surely drives up Halak's demands. But even with those numbers, I will say for the millionth time that we'll have no room left under the cap for emergency callups if Sundin signs for 8 million. Even dropping Begin doesn't help, because Chipchura would then get his lineup spot, and he isn't much cheaper.

He might even take less in salary to get a one way contract, like how Plekanec took a 2 year deal at the league minimum coming out of the lockout, just so he got a one way deal. Guys with less than half a season in the NHL and are RFA's don't have a lot of bargaining power. O'Byrne didn't even have a regular spot in the lineup in the playoffs.

O'Byrne, by accepting his qualifying offer, would set himself up for a bigger raise next season if he played pretty much every game.

If Lapierre makes $575,000 next year, than O'Byrne should have no problem making $649,000.

[Fanpuck33]

He might even take less in salary to get a one way contract, like how Plekanec took a 2 year deal at the league minimum coming out of the lockout, just so he got a one way deal. Guys with less than half a season in the NHL and are RFA's don't have a lot of bargaining power. O'Byrne didn't even have a regular spot in the lineup in the playoffs.

O'Byrne, by accepting his qualifying offer, would set himself up for a bigger raise next season if he played pretty much every game.

If Lapierre makes $575,000 next year, than O'Byrne should have no problem making $649,000.

Plekanec and O'Bryne aren't comparable. Coming out of the lockout, Plekanec had played two NHL games and we not a lock to make the lineup. O'Byrne has half a season under his belt and is a lock to make the team next year, assuming we don't bring in two D-men, highly unlikely. The team can't really use a one-way contract guarantee to convince him to take less money. I'm not saying O'Byrne has tons of bargaining power, just that it would be reasonable for him to ask 800,000 for a couple seasons.

Lapierre actually is making 688,000 the next two years, and despite him having more experience, I think he had less bargaining power. He was demoted before the season when he thought he had his job locked down. I think that easily was used to convince him to sign very cheap. I think that kinda humbled him.

I obviously could be wrong here, I just don't think Ryan should/will sign for the minimum he can get.

Gorges should get the most money out of our RFAs based on his 2 years of full time nhl experience...i see him making between 1 - 1.5 milllion. Obyrne and halak should come very cheap since they both have had less than 1 year in the league. I expect halak to make between 750,000 - 1 mil and obyrne should make close to his qualifying offer.

I really think Halak will sign for well over a million, at least 1.25 million. He believes he can be a number 1 goalie and Gainey would seem to agree. He has said in the past that he wants Halak to challenge Price for the starting job. That statement will be good for keeping Price's ego down, but it could hurt him contract-wise. Halak will surely ask for more money than a mere backup. Just a strong feeling I have.

[dlbalr]

Lapierre actually is making 688,000 the next two years, and despite him having more experience, I think he had less bargaining power. He was demoted before the season when he thought he had his job locked down. I think that easily was used to convince him to sign very cheap. I think that kinda humbled him.

He actually makes $575,000 this year (if you're basing it off my file, there is a separate column for cap hit and actual salary.) I too think O'Byrne won't be getting much more than his QO since he will get a 1-way deal. Halak over a mil is definitely realistic, given his demands and the playing opportunities overseas, where his agent said a while back if I remember correctly that he could very well go to.

[Fanpuck33]

He actually makes $575,000 this year (if you're basing it off my file, there is a separate column for cap hit and actual salary.)\

Salary is pretty meaningless, cap hit is all that really matters. I really don't understand the point of backending and frontending contracts if it doesn't affect the cap hit.

[Seb]

Salary is pretty meaningless, cap hit is all that really matters. I really don't understand the point of backending and frontending contracts if it doesn't affect the cap hit.

Front end loading a contract allows the player to cash in sooner, and allows the team the flexibility to buy the player out cheaper (should they need to) after a few seasons.

[lazy26]

I really think Halak will sign for well over a million, at least 1.25 million. He believes he can be a number 1 goalie and Gainey would seem to agree. He has said in the past that he wants Halak to challenge Price for the starting job. That statement will be good for keeping Price's ego down, but it could hurt him contract-wise. Halak will surely ask for more money than a mere backup. Just a strong feeling I have.

I agree that Halak will probably ask for more than a backup's salary, but he really doesn't have much leverage. Belief that you are a starting goalie doesn't usually translate to cash. I can't see how someone who has only appeared in 22 NHL games (only 6 last year) would command more than $1 million. Maybe $750,000 base salary with bonuses (which do count against the cap). But I would think the clause would be in games played, and I doubt he would achieve that.

I hope your strong feeling is wrong.

[Fanpuck33]

I agree that Halak will probably ask for more than a backup's salary, but he really doesn't have much leverage. Belief that you are a starting goalie doesn't usually translate to cash. I can't see how someone who has only appeared in 22 NHL games (only 6 last year) would command more than $1 million. Maybe $750,000 base salary with bonuses (which do count against the cap). But I would think the clause would be in games played, and I doubt he would achieve that.

I hope your strong feeling is wrong.

That's why I think Gainey's statement will hurt his cause at the negotiating table. Saying you expect a guy to compete for the starting job implies you believe he's good enough to start for a team that just finished 1st in the East. I know if I were Halak I would use that endorsement to demand more money. Well, not really. If I were in his position, I'd be perfectly happy to sign for 750k to be the backup.

[saskhab]

Salary is pretty meaningless, cap hit is all that really matters. I really don't understand the point of backending and frontending contracts if it doesn't affect the cap hit.

Except for the player, salary is what matters and cap hit is pretty meaningless. So yes, Lapierre does care that he takes home $575,000 next year. He also knows he'll be getting a raise in 2009-10, and that means his qualifying offer in 2010 will be significantly higher than what it would be if he were making the average of the two salaries each year (which is what the cap hit is).

General rule: Younger players on short term contracts like back-loaded contracts. It means they earn more money every year, and that at the end of the contract, they will have a higher qualifying offer as a minimum starting off point for negotiations. Older players on long term contracts like front-loaded contracts. It means that they get a lot of the money right away, and when they are older, if they have injury problems or other issues and have to consider retirement, they are walking away from a lot less money than they would have had their contract been spread evenly throughout the duration of the deal. Also, teams like frontloaded contracts for these players as the buyout value gets less and less with each year, so that if the player diminishes in production significantly as they get older, the cap hit is less.

O'Byrne, like Lapierre, started the season in the minors. Both got called up at the same time if I remember correctly. Lapierre finished the season a regular in the playoffs. O'Byrne has only played half a season in the NHL. Lapierre has finished the past 2 years as a NHL player.

[lazy26]

That's why I think Gainey's statement will hurt his cause at the negotiating table. Saying you expect a guy to compete for the starting job implies you believe he's good enough to start for a team that just finished 1st in the East. I know if I were Halak I would use that endorsement to demand more money. Well, not really. If I were in his position, I'd be perfectly happy to sign for 750k to be the backup.

lol. I'd sign for 10% of that!

Damn professional athletes, with their marketable talents!

[Wamsley01]

Except for the player, salary is what matters and cap hit is pretty meaningless. So yes, Lapierre does care that he takes home $575,000 next year. He also knows he'll be getting a raise in 2009-10, and that means his qualifying offer in 2010 will be significantly higher than what it would be if he were making the average of the two salaries each year (which is what the cap hit is).

General rule: Younger players on short term contracts like back-loaded contracts. It means they earn more money every year, and that at the end of the contract, they will have a higher qualifying offer as a minimum starting off point for negotiations. Older players on long term contracts like front-loaded contracts. It means that they get a lot of the money right away, and when they are older, if they have injury problems or other issues and have to consider retirement, they are walking away from a lot less money than they would have had their contract been spread evenly throughout the duration of the deal. Also, teams like frontloaded contracts for these players as the buyout value gets less and less with each year, so that if the player diminishes in production significantly as they get older, the cap hit is less.

O'Byrne, like Lapierre, started the season in the minors. Both got called up at the same time if I remember correctly. Lapierre finished the season a regular in the playoffs. O'Byrne has only played half a season in the NHL. Lapierre has finished the past 2 years as a NHL player.

Man Sask, you know your contract shit. I am with you, what you are saying is totally logical

[habs rule]

some of these teams cap numbers are mind boggling. the rumour is that the ducks have signed brendon morrison and yet they have only 300k in cap room and haven't signed all their rfa's yet. WTF? Calgary is 1.5 mill over the cap. WTF? how are they going to be able to get under the cap and have 23 players. On the othe hand L. A. needs to spend somewhere around 12-14 million to reach the floor. Maybe they should be looking to sign Sundin BLDS and wait lets tell jagr it ain't over yet come to L.A..

[lazy26]

some of these teams cap numbers are mind boggling. the rumour is that the ducks have signed brendon morrison and yet they have only 300k in cap room and haven't signed all their rfa's yet. WTF? Calgary is 1.5 mill over the cap. WTF? how are they going to be able to get under the cap and have 23 players. On the othe hand L. A. needs to spend somewhere around 12-14 million to reach the floor. Maybe they should be looking to sign Sundin BLDS and wait lets tell jagr it ain't over yet come to L.A..

Unsubstantiated, of course, but rumour is that Khabibulin will take his $6.75 million contract to LA. And if the Ducks can ship out Schneider as rumoured, then they'll make it under the cap. Not sure what Calgary can do, but I'd assume they'd look at getting rid of Aucoin.

[Fanpuck33]

Except for the player, salary is what matters and cap hit is pretty meaningless . . . Also, teams like frontloaded contracts for these players as the buyout value gets less and less with each year, so that if the player diminishes in production significantly as they get older, the cap hit is less.

I was just pointing out his cap hit was higher than his salary this season, so for figuring cap room, we should look at that instead.

And about frontloaded contracts, I've always wondered how it affects trades. If a guy signs for, say, 6-6-3-3 and is traded before the third year, what is his cap hit on the new team? The average of the whole contract or the average of the rest of the contract?

[simonus]

I was just pointing out his cap hit was higher than his salary this season, so for figuring cap room, we should look at that instead.

And about frontloaded contracts, I've always wondered how it affects trades. If a guy signs for, say, 6-6-3-3 and is traded before the third year, what is his cap hit on the new team? The average of the whole contract or the average of the rest of the contract?

average of the whole, as I understand.

As far as frontloading, there are 3 reasons to do so:

1) While a team the the Canadiens is limited by the cap and would gladly pay more in many seasons, many teams have real budgets that are lower than the cap. If the habs frontload a contract, when they look to move an aging player in the later years of the K, it is as if they sent money along with the player (insofar that team B is getting a $5mil AAV player for $3 mil). For a team with cap space but a limited operating budget, this is very worthwhile.

2) As others have noted, actual salary affects the buyout costs for a contract.

3) Speculating. A team might play with when it pays a contract as a way of speculating on inflation (like dollar strength), its own finances, or the overall market. Imagine you are a low operating budget team, have cap space and want to sign a top tier player. Let's say that the going AAV is $6mil for such a player. So you structure the 3 year contract $4, $4, $10. You take your run at the playoffs in years 1 and 2 and then sell the last year of the contract to the Rangers. The Rangers don't care that they essentially subsidized the first two years of the contract, they care about the cap hit. It is basically the opposite of what the Habs do in scenario 1. Let us say that you see that you have upcoming UFAs or 3rd (now 2nd I guess) contract RFAs. Maybe you front-load the current contracts so that you have operating budget space to pay the new contracts in the upcoming year. Maybe you backload a K because you think your team's revenues will go up or that there will be general inflation.

[saskhab]

Yeah, those frontloaded deals can get interesting with trades. For example, look at Bryan McCabe's contract. He was making over $7m the past couple of years, but his cap hit was somewhere around $5.7m. That means in the last two years he's earing around $4m or so. A team like Columbus, or Atlanta or something, that won't ever have cap issues (they won't spend to the limit) might take on his contract at that salary. They aren't spending $5.7m on him, they're spending $4m on him. Their cap hit is still well below the maximum... they might be inclined to add a player like that if he fits on their budget.

And actually, trading for a player like that could move a team's cap hit is above the minimum amount allowed, but in reality, they're spending less than that minimum that season.

But yeah, the following teams look to be over the cap and need to make some roster moves:

Philly (again)

Anaheim (again)

Chicago

Calgary

Boston is close to the cap, and they have Wideman going to arbitration which might put them over or at least make it very tight. San Jose only has $5.2m to sign Clowe, Ehrhoff, and Goc. The Devils don't have a ton of play space, but have a full team in place.

[Fanpuck33]

Well, I guess I look like a fool now. Never in a million years did I think Halak would sign for that low.

Let's take another look at this whole Sundin thing now. Let's say we get O'Byrne and Gorges for a combined 1.6 million, 700k for O'Byrne and 900k for Gorges. That brings our cap hit to 49.7 million. Assuming we can trade Dandy for a pick and replace him with a million dollar player, the number is down to 49 million. Signing Sundin would likely send Chipchura back to Hamilton to be replaced in the pressbox by a less promising player who won't be hurt as much by not player. That'll save approximately 300k, bringing the number to 48.7 million. All of a sudden they technically have room for an 8 million dollar offer. Still, I don't see Gainey offering any more than 7 million at this point, as he wouldn't be able to bring up emergency callups in cases where a player isn't injured long enough to qualify for cap relief. It would also make any deadline moves very difficult. However, I've been just about proven wrong about 8 million not even being an option.

[saskhab]

Wow... Bob's the man on that Halak deal. $775,000 cap hit for 2 years? I'll take that.

[dlbalr]

Updated contract figure based on players assumed to be locks for the roster:

$47,150,834, leaving $9,549,166 remaining below the 57 million ceiling.

[JAB]

Updated contract figure based on players assumed to be locks for the roster:

$47,150,834, leaving $9,549,166 remaining below the 57 million ceiling.

according to nhlscap.com and nhlnumbers.com the habs are 8.6 million under the cap. did you subtract chipchura's salary? if you did then your number makes sense

[dlbalr]

according to nhlscap.com and nhlnumbers.com the habs are 8.6 million under the cap. did you subtract chipchura's salary? if you did then your number makes sense

Bingo, if the Habs sign a C, Chipchura is no longer a lock to make the roster, so I leave him off when assessing cap space. Interestingly enough, the number you say there and my number less Chipchura don't equal the same thing. Last I saw, the NHLSCAP.com one (which now goes to Hockeybuzz) had an error regarding Lapierre, considering the other one generally copies the other, I imagine that makes up the rest of the difference.