The Chipchura Case

[Easy Ryder]

It's all about development of the player and there is no sign of major improvement in

his case.

Maxwell can very well be a solid third centre next year on a base of three good offensive lines.

If he develops into it.

Chip is for now a depth player with some pro experience.

I would not be surprise, at the trade deadline to see him being move in a package to bring some

experience back up for the playoff.

[ShortHanded]

Well, he's been sent down now to Hamilton so we definitely have our answer. My hope is that he get to play LOTS of minutes in hamilton with good players in both Offensive and defensive roles, not only in a minor capacity. Can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned that Don Lever seems to use Chips only in a defensive role. If we all agree that his projected spot on the habs eventually involves offense, then he needs to play in many different situations. I, for one, hope he isn't packaged off in a trade, and gets another chance either sometime this year, or, as Saskhab pointed out, next year when we lose some of our big guys to UFA status...

[CerebusClone]

If he's such a competitor he should prove it and be dominant in the AHL the same way Laps was. That means showing up and performing every game, not just the big ones.

Actually Chipchura produced pretty much just as much as Lapierre during his first two seasons with the Bulldogs:

Lapierre:

2005-06: 36 points in 73 games

2006-07: 24 points in 37 games

Chipchura:

2006-07: 39 points in 80 games

2007-08: 21 points in 39 games

There is only a very slight advantage statistically for Lapierre, hardly the equivalent of one really good game during the season, however Lapierre was used in a more offensive role with the Bulldogs while Chipchura has been typecast as a defensive shutdowncenter even in Hamilton, playing mostly with grinders such as Stortini, Baines, and Stewart.

Personally I think Chipchura has done enough to deserve a regular spot on the forth line, and he's outplayed during the camp everyone who has played on the forth line so far this season. Actually, both Lapierre and Chipchura deserve to play, Kostopoulos is proving once again to be a great asset, Laraque fills a specific need, so that only leaves one between Dandeneault and Begin to be a reserve player while the other one is waived, sent down, or traded. Unfortuantely, I doubt the organization will do this to a beloved francophone player on the 100th anniversary, so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

Too bad for Chipchura that the free agency / waiver rules are not more strict for unwanted/undesired prospects. After two full profesional seasons, especially after completing their junior careers, young "undesired" players such as Kyle Chipchura, Rob Schremp, Al Montoya ... should get the opportunity to offer their services elsewhere if they're still not given a chance...

[Zowpeb]

Personally I think Chipchura has done enough to deserve a regular spot on the forth line, and he's outplayed during the camp everyone who has played on the forth line so far this season. Actually, both Lapierre and Chipchura deserve to play, Kostopoulos is proving once again to be a great asset, Laraque fills a specific need, so that only leaves one between Dandeneault and Begin to be a reserve player while the other one is waived, sent down, or traded. Unfortuantely, I doubt the organization will do this to a beloved francophone player on the 100th anniversary, so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

Too bad for Chipchura that the free agency / waiver rules are not more strict for unwanted/undesired prospects. After two full profesional seasons, especially after completing their junior careers, young "undesired" players such as Kyle Chipchura, Rob Schremp, Al Montoya ... should get the opportunity to offer their services elsewhere if they're still not given a chance...

I wouldn't say it's politics but simply that you wouldn't want a young player with Chipchura's ability to rot as a reserve and with less then 12 minutes per game for the entire year.

They really need to give him a chance to play long minutes in Hamilton, and to continue to work on his offense and face-offs.

He's a virtual lock as a regular habs and if his face-offs got up to par he could end up being a quality 2nd line C...I still believe he could become a 55 point type with solid 2 way play and good enough leadership to possibly get an A on his jersey.

[Habsfan]

so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

It's not a question of Politics, it'S a question of his speed and his face-off skills. He will need to improve both of them to make it in the NHL!

[MAK]

Unfortuantely, I doubt the organization will do this to a beloved francophone player on the 100th anniversary, so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

Too bad for Chipchura that the free agency / waiver rules are not more strict for unwanted/undesired prospects. After two full profesional seasons, especially after completing their junior careers, young "undesired" players such as Kyle Chipchura, Rob Schremp, Al Montoya ... should get the opportunity to offer their services elsewhere if they're still not given a chance...

HERE WE GO AGAIN !!

did you forget last year already ?? who was sent down and who stayed ?? Do you REALLY think that Carbonneau and Gainey makes their choices.

It's not a matter of politics( while some media would love for it to be) its a matter of Chipichura being the only player who doesn't have to go through waivers in order to be sent down...will he finish his season in montreal?? YES. it's just a matter of having dead weight like Bégin and Dandenault to carry around. if they're sent down, will you cry foul like you do with Chipchura ??

didn't you like Lapierre against Boston ?? however he will have to show me more consistency

while it's hard on the Kid, I feel great knowing that such quality kids are pushing to be in the NHL but can't because the Regulars are just that better.

[Mont Royale]

Personally I think Chipchura has done enough to deserve a regular spot on the forth line, and he's outplayed during the camp everyone who has played on the forth line so far this season. Actually, both Lapierre and Chipchura deserve to play, Kostopoulos is proving once again to be a great asset, Laraque fills a specific need, so that only leaves one between Dandeneault and Begin to be a reserve player while the other one is waived, sent down, or traded. Unfortuantely, I doubt the organization will do this to a beloved francophone player on the 100th anniversary, so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

I don't believe the politics angle - the cards were stacked against him from the beginning. Chipchura has a 2 way contract, and his main adversaries for a spot on the team do not. Hence, he would have to not just outplay them, but do so convincingly enough for the Habs to keep him and dump someone else. From what I saw and read, it's arguable that he outplayed any of them, and if he did, it wasn't by any wide margin. Sad for him, but he'll get another shot next year. An organization shouldn't quickly dispose of established players unless the improvement is substantial, as there would be consequences to Montreal's ability to attract veterans.

[saskhab]

Personally I think Chipchura has done enough to deserve a regular spot on the forth line, and he's outplayed during the camp everyone who has played on the forth line so far this season. Actually, both Lapierre and Chipchura deserve to play, Kostopoulos is proving once again to be a great asset, Laraque fills a specific need, so that only leaves one between Dandeneault and Begin to be a reserve player while the other one is waived, sent down, or traded. Unfortuantely, I doubt the organization will do this to a beloved francophone player on the 100th anniversary, so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

Too bad for Chipchura that the free agency / waiver rules are not more strict for unwanted/undesired prospects. After two full profesional seasons, especially after completing their junior careers, young "undesired" players such as Kyle Chipchura, Rob Schremp, Al Montoya ... should get the opportunity to offer their services elsewhere if they're still not given a chance...

Are you serious? First off, Al Montoya is not very desired by anybody at all, why you bring him up is beyond me. He got traded for Marcel Hossa and Freddy Sjostrom, and was outplayed by Josh Tordjman in Phoenix's system last year.

Putting Kyle Chipchura in the AHL allows us to keep, and use the following players if injuries should occur:

Steve Bégin, Mathieu Dandenault, Tom Kostopolous, Max Lapierre, and Kyle Chipchura. The scenarios you are suggesting means the Habs would lose Begin, Dandenault, or Chipchura. Don't you realize that having all 3 makes us a better team than having only 2 of them?

Kyle Chiphcura is signed to a 3 year, two-way contract. He's under the same rules that Begin, Chipchura, Dandenault, Kostopolous, and Lapierre had when they came up. He's not losing $900,000 this year because he's from Vermillion. He's not making that money because he's not as good of a player as guys like Sergei Kostitsyn, Carey Price or Guillaume Latendresse, who are still up in Montreal on their entry level deals. Certainly, being from Quebec didn't help Lapierre last year when he got sent down to Hamilton to start the year after finishing in Montreal. Finishing in Montreal for 2 straight years earned Lapierre a one way contract and a spot in this year's starting lineup.

Detroit kept Jiri Hudler in the AHL for all 3 full seasons of his entry level contract. It's not because he was undesired, it's because it served their organization best. They started this year by putting Darren Helm in the AHL despite him being a regular on last year's Stanley Cup winners. Why? Having him play nearly 20 minutes a night at his age in the AHL, plus the money savings of putting him in the AHL helps them ice a better team overall. When Zetterberg got hurt before last night's game, they called Helm up, knowing he wasn't a green rookie and that they could trust him a lot more than lesser callups. Chipchura is our version of that. He's played in the NHL, is still young, and gives us an option that the team can trust in a pinch.

Next year, when Chipchura has to clear waivers to go to the AHL, is when the decision has to be made. Likely 3 of the guys you mention there (Begin, Kostopolous, Dandenault) won't be around, as well as guys like Lang, and maybe one of Tanguay, Koivu, Kovalev, or Higgins. Bob has decided to put off Chipchura for one year.

And don't feel too sorry for Chips... for staying in the NHL six days as a spare, he earned himself over $27,000.

[KoZed]

Actually Chipchura produced pretty much just as much as Lapierre during his first two seasons with the Bulldogs:

Lapierre:

2005-06: 36 points in 73 games

2006-07: 24 points in 37 games

Chipchura:

2006-07: 39 points in 80 games

2007-08: 21 points in 39 games

There is only a very slight advantage statistically for Lapierre, hardly the equivalent of one really good game during the season, however Lapierre was used in a more offensive role with the Bulldogs while Chipchura has been typecast as a defensive shutdowncenter even in Hamilton, playing mostly with grinders such as Stortini, Baines, and Stewart.

Funny. I remember you telling me stats didnt matter when you were putting down Latendresse. But now you're using stats to try to hype up Chips.

But you conveniently didnt even chose the same seasons.

05-06 is irrelevant. 06-07: Laps was playing at a point-per-game level before getting called up to Montreal because of injuries. He was dominant then. He got sent back down in late-December -- despite having something like 3 goals and a couple of assist in a handful of games -- because he was the only player on the roster who had a 2-way contract. Same story last season. Laps had 14 pts in 17 games and was dominant before getting called up again. From then on he never looked back and the Habs gave him an NHL contract.

Chips never looked dominant like that except for the AHL 07 playoffs, which weighted in heavily in the Habs decision to keep up for the started of the season last year. But after getting sent down the AHL because his game was falling apart in the big leagues, Chips almost went into hiding. Most of his 21 pts came in the month of February. Before and after that, he was slumping big time. Go on the AHL site and chek his game-by-game stats from the past season.

Personally I think Chipchura has done enough to deserve a regular spot on the forth line, and he's outplayed during the camp everyone who has played on the forth line so far this season. Actually, both Lapierre and Chipchura deserve to play, Kostopoulos is proving once again to be a great asset, Laraque fills a specific need, so that only leaves one between Dandeneault and Begin to be a reserve player while the other one is waived, sent down, or traded. Unfortuantely, I doubt the organization will do this to a beloved francophone player on the 100th anniversary, so Chipchura will lose another year and 900K because of politics.

And there is where you show your real bias. Reverse linguistic racism, textbook case of projection.

I guess for every quack who wants the Habs to be filled with nothing but francophones, there's a CerebusClone who think francophone players are inherently inferior to anglophone players and the only way they get to play in the NHL is because Gainey & Carbo are playing politics. Because that's exactly what you're implying here.

I suggest you re-evaluate your line of thinking.

[CerebusClone]

Are you serious? First off, Al Montoya is not very desired by anybody at all, why you bring him up is beyond me. He got traded for Marcel Hossa and Freddy Sjostrom, and was outplayed by Josh Tordjman in Phoenix's system last year.

Putting Kyle Chipchura in the AHL allows us to keep, and use the following players if injuries should occur:

Steve Bégin, Mathieu Dandenault, Tom Kostopolous, Max Lapierre, and Kyle Chipchura. The scenarios you are suggesting means the Habs would lose Begin, Dandenault, or Chipchura. Don't you realize that having all 3 makes us a better team than having only 2 of them?

Kyle Chiphcura is signed to a 3 year, two-way contract. He's under the same rules that Begin, Chipchura, Dandenault, Kostopolous, and Lapierre had when they came up. He's not losing $900,000 this year because he's from Vermillion. He's not making that money because he's not as good of a player as guys like Sergei Kostitsyn, Carey Price or Guillaume Latendresse, who are still up in Montreal on their entry level deals. Certainly, being from Quebec didn't help Lapierre last year when he got sent down to Hamilton to start the year after finishing in Montreal. Finishing in Montreal for 2 straight years earned Lapierre a one way contract and a spot in this year's starting lineup.

Detroit kept Jiri Hudler in the AHL for all 3 full seasons of his entry level contract. It's not because he was undesired, it's because it served their organization best. They started this year by putting Darren Helm in the AHL despite him being a regular on last year's Stanley Cup winners. Why? Having him play nearly 20 minutes a night at his age in the AHL, plus the money savings of putting him in the AHL helps them ice a better team overall. When Zetterberg got hurt before last night's game, they called Helm up, knowing he wasn't a green rookie and that they could trust him a lot more than lesser callups. Chipchura is our version of that. He's played in the NHL, is still young, and gives us an option that the team can trust in a pinch.

Next year, when Chipchura has to clear waivers to go to the AHL, is when the decision has to be made. Likely 3 of the guys you mention there (Begin, Kostopolous, Dandenault) won't be around, as well as guys like Lang, and maybe one of Tanguay, Koivu, Kovalev, or Higgins. Bob has decided to put off Chipchura for one year.

And don't feel too sorry for Chips... for staying in the NHL six days as a spare, he earned himself over $27,000.

I didn't say that Montoya is the hottest player not in the NHL, however he could most likely get his shot in the NHL with another team. All I said is that I woudn't be against a rule change so that players like Montoya, Chipchura, Schremp ... don't get stuck in the minors for so long, whatever the reason is (great depth, the team doesn't believe or like a certain player, too many contracts awarded to marginal players, etc). Clearly it wouldn't benefit teams, but that's not the point, it has more to with avoiding ruining careers like we may have with Yann Denis.

If the Canadiens prefer to keep several veterans around for safety, it's their right... however a guy like Chipchura shouldn't have the pay the price forever... the Canadiens have had since 2004 and 2 full pro years to get him Chipchura and Stewart into their lineup, and if they feel they're still not good enough, then they should be able to offer their services elsewhere. If we just look at last season, it's not normal that players like Denis, Locke, and Milroy were still only RFAs, and if they had no rotten in the minors so long (again I'm not saying they deserved to play in Montreal), other teams may (or not) have been interested ig they had clered waivers a year before. However, after a while, most players will lose their motivation (which affects their production) and also become labeled as career minor-leaguers (which scares away a lot of teams whyen they finally go trhough waivers).

I simply think it would be fair to both players and teams if a player become waiver eligible after 2 professional years (with a minimum age of 22 for players who make the jump at 18/19) and that the age for Group VI free agency was reduced to 24 or even 23. That way, an aging prospect like Chipchura could get his real shot in Montreal instead of being the easy target because of his contract or otherwise he could get a chance to play with another team before a becomes a suspect or career minor-leaguer.

ps. When I said "politics", I didn't mean the crap about being a francophone or not... sending down a good young player because of his 2-way contract is part of it in my opinion.

[Habitforming]

Well, since he didn't play in a single regular season game he has no "case" and should be on the farm.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Habitforming

[CerebusClone]

Funny. I remember you telling me stats didnt matter when you were putting down Latendresse. But now you're using stats to try to hype up Chips.

But you conveniently didnt even chose the same seasons.

05-06 is irrelevant. 06-07: Laps was playing at a point-per-game level before getting called up to Montreal because of injuries. He was dominant then. He got sent back down in late-December -- despite having something like 3 goals and a couple of assist in a handful of games -- because he was the only player on the roster who had a 2-way contract. Same story last season. Laps had 14 pts in 17 games and was dominant before getting called up again. From then on he never looked back and the Habs gave him an NHL contract.

Chips never looked dominant like that except for the AHL 07 playoffs, which weighted in heavily in the Habs decision to keep up for the started of the season last year. But after getting sent down the AHL because his game was falling apart in the big leagues, Chips almost went into hiding. Most of his 21 pts came in the month of February. Before and after that, he was slumping big time. Go on the AHL site and chek his game-by-game stats from the past season.

When did I put down Latendresse? When I mentionned how great a player I think he can become, and that I thought he needed and deserved to play with Saku Koivu and Alex Tanguay this season? All I said is that I felt that he had not improved as much I how would have liked - or as much as I think he would have if he had finished his junior career - and that despite his 16 goals and hits totals on paper, he was still too much of a non-factor on the ice. And it's not like I'm the only one thinking that... I've heard even highly respected analysts such as Dany Dube and Pierre McGuire mention pretty much the same thing on CKAC/Team990.

And there is where you show your real bias. Reverse linguistic racism, textbook case of projection.

I guess for every quack who wants the Habs to be filled with nothing but francophones, there's a CerebusClone who think francophone players are inherently inferior to anglophone players and the only way they get to play in the NHL is because Gainey & Carbo are playing politics. Because that's exactly what you're implying here.

I suggest you re-evaluate your line of thinking.

When the hell did I mention that anglophones are inferior to francophones? When I mean "politics" is partly because of contracts, that Gainey may prefer keeping Dandeneault instead of admiting his mistake (like he did with Samsonov), and yes in part I think there is a chance that Bob Gainey wants to avoid making Dandeneault look bad, a veteran francophone who's been with the team for over three years, by waiving him or sending him down to the minors, especially on such a symbolic season.

And it's not just about Chipchura, I mentioned I thought it was unfair for Steve Bégin to be a healthy scratch last game against Boston while Dandeneault remained in the lineup. It has nothing to do with the fact that he's a francophone, but simply about the fact that there's very little reason to explain why Mathieu Dandeneault is still with the Canadiens today considering his high salary, and that he's not good enough neither as a defenseman nor as a forward. I'm just tired of seing his useless bum in the lineup, sometimes even on the Koivu line while even a guy like Perezhogin who was working hard in an unfamilar defensive role couldn't get that opportunity.

By the way both my parents are francophones, and I was raised in French at home...

[saskhab]

I don't think much is accomplished by bumping up the waiver eligibility by one year. If we waive Chipchura next year, I assume someone might give him a chance. Edmonton is carrying a 3rd goalie right now (Jeff Desluariers) for fear of losing him on waivers. They think he's a NHL goalie, but they don't think he's better than Dwayne Roloson right now, since they're dressing Roloson ahead of him. I can't comment on the Oilers w/r/t Schremp, they do appear to not be too interested in him long term. That sucks for Schremp, but he can always look to the example of a different player on the Oilers if he needs motivation... Fernando Pisani. He was drafted by the Oilers in 1996 and didn't play a NHL game until midway through the 2002-03 season. Now he's a core player making millions of bucks on a long term deal.

I don't know why we're feeling sorry for 22 year olds not making the NHL after two years in the AHL. It's about honouring contracts to players... contracts to Begin, Dandenault, and Kostopolous that they earned. And contracts to Chipchura which he was under no delusion that he was guaranteed any of that NHL money. Again, Chipchura made out pretty good here... because of injuries, he stayed with the team for practices as a "just in case" scenario. He practiced for 6 days once the NHL season started, and with a salary of $860,000 for this year he made over $27,000 in less than a week. Plus, as of right now, he is considered the team's first callup when injuries hit. If he goes down to the AHL and sulks, he won't be the first callup, but he's ahead of the other guys in Hamilton right now and with hard work, will maintain that designation.

Chipchura might be a better forward than about 100-150 forwards currently in the NHL right now (if each team carries 14, there are 420 forwards in the NHL). He might even be marginally better than 5 or so forwards on our current team. But if you're on a rookie contract, you had better be worth it to keep around. We had Guillaume up the past couple of years and maybe it was the right call, maybe not. That was a judgement call by management and the early results this year look good at least. Being better than 150 forwards in the NHL makes you a 3rd line player. I think that's where Chips has to be in order to feel wronged, and really, I don't think he is better than 150 forwards currently in the NHL. And obviously, since those 420 guys are distributed unevenly in terms of talent, that makes it harder to make the case for him in Montreal.

I just don't see a problem with this. He shouldn't feel discouraged... he's played 37 games with the Habs in two years. He's in line to likely play a few at some point this year. And if he plays well and works hard, he'll likely cement a full-time spot in 2009-10 with all the potential openings up front. He needs to take this in stride and I'm personally not worried that he hasn't made it to the show at this point. It's completely in his hands, and he has the potential to improve his situation. He's a first round pick, they tend to get a lot of opportunities to stick, even beyond their first NHL team.

[CerebusClone]

I just don't see a problem with this. He shouldn't feel discouraged... he's played 37 games with the Habs in two years. He's in line to likely play a few at some point this year. And if he plays well and works hard, he'll likely cement a full-time spot in 2009-10 with all the potential openings up front. He needs to take this in stride and I'm personally not worried that he hasn't made it to the show at this point. It's completely in his hands, and he has the potential to improve his situation. He's a first round pick, they tend to get a lot of opportunities to stick, even beyond their first NHL team.

Actually it isn't really, which is wthat I find too bad in his situation. He had to come to camp knowing he had no chance of earning neither a roster spot nor even a reserve player spot, regardless of how he played because he's on a two-way contract while the others aren't; it has nothing to do with the way he played or didn't play.

I just feel that after 2 full seasons, if the Canadiens can't get him in the lineup, a player like Chipchura should somehow have the opportunity to play elsewhere (obviously factors such as long-term injuries should be considered). Unfortunately for him, unlike a guy like Grabovski, Chipchura will accept whatever the team tells him, won't request a trade, and won't make threaten the team to leave for Russia. So he's stuck, and what's worse is that he'll probably once again won't be challenged by Don Lever, and will be back into his defensive-only shutdown role (but that's another issue).

After all, teams only have 2 years to decide whether they want to sign a junior player or not, this is a similar situation. If after two years a player is not getting opoortunities, perhaps he should have the right to leave, especially since the league imposes a 3-year entry level contract. Or, to give another example, perhaps a player should have to honor those 3 years, but become unresticted if he played less than 45-50 games in the NHL (although maybe IR days in the NHLshould also count).

Anyways... it doens't matter and doesn't affect me... I just think it sucks for a guy to be unable to play in the NHL althouhg he's healthy and good enough... I gave Yann Danis as an example because I think he was good enough, but after a while the lack of opportunities made him lose the motivation required to play at such a high level, which affected his play; he went from great... to good... to just average... even perhaps being the best goalie at camp (I think that was 2 years ago) was a useless attempt to stay in the NHL (there's nothing more he could have done).

Edited October 17, 2008 by CerebusClone

[BCHabnut]

I believe that it hurts the league in the long run to have great young players who cannot play because the team they play on is deep for their position. Shremp is an imediate example that I think of. However, If someone in the league wanted them, they could always trade for him. It would be nice to see these guys play on a weaker team that could use the talent. Pisani should have been in the league years ago, and I'm sure Detroit has players in the system that could have been 1st or 2nd liners on a weak team. Instead they dilute the team with people who should be in the AHL. I don't know what the solution is, but it sucks for the guys waiting in the wings.

I guess teh cream rises to the crop and if they are really that good, they will be traded. I guarentee if Patch performs in the AHL, teams will ask for him in trades if he doesn't get brought up next year.

[KoZed]

I've heard even highly respected analysts such as Dany Dube and Pierre McGuire

. Wow... there's 5 words that should never be in the same sentence.

When the hell did I mention that anglophones are inferior to francophones? When I mean "politics" is partly because of contracts, that Gainey may prefer keeping Dandeneault instead of admiting his mistake (like he did with Samsonov), and yes in part I think there is a chance that Bob Gainey wants to avoid making Dandeneault look bad, a veteran francophone who's been with the team for over three years, by waiving him or sending him down to the minors, especially on such a symbolic season.

You really can't see it, can you?

Right now, Dandy is still more useful than Chipchura. Last time I checked, Chips couldnt play RW or D. So saying that Dandy is only there because of his status as a francophone -- rather than giving him credit for what he has over Chipchura on a purely hockey level -- is either shear bad faith or bias. Do you understand what I'm saying? Chips is not as good as you think he is, and Dandeneault is better than you think he is. But you can't see it, so you have to find some explanation as to why Dandy is in the NHL and Chips in the AHL, and all you can come up with is some linguistic issue.

Really? That's the best you can come up with? So in a symbolic year -- where the pressure to win the Cup is probably 100 times greater than all the seasons from 95 to 07 put together -- you think Gainey & Carbo care more about some PR calculation than they care about putting the absolute best lineup they can on the ice?

Really?

And it's not just about Chipchura, I mentioned I thought it was unfair for Steve Bégin to be a healthy scratch last game against Boston while Dandeneault remained in the lineup. It has nothing to do with the fact that he's a francophone, but simply about the fact that there's very little reason to explain why Mathieu Dandeneault is still with the Canadiens today considering his high salary, and that he's not good enough neither as a defenseman nor as a forward. I'm just tired of seing his useless bum in the lineup, sometimes even on the Koivu line while even a guy like Perezhogin who was working hard in an unfamilar defensive role couldn't get that opportunity.

Then why did you revert to the completely absurd idea that Dandeneault "is only there because he's a beloved francophone" (and lumping Begin with him too) while trying to find excuses for Chipchura not being able to crack the regular roster?

Be honest and just say you personnaly dont like Dandeneault or Begin and you love Chipchura more. That's way better than encouraging people who believe in some sort of pro-francophone discrimination conspiracy theory to explain why they beloved Canadian/American/European idol can't crack the roster.

[saskhab]

Cerebus is entitled to believe that Chipchura is a better player than others on the team. People within the Habs' brass could very well think the same way. I'll use the Detroit example again with Darren Helm... Detroit thought he was good enough to play in last year's playoffs but not good enough to start 2008-09 with the team. Convenience of being sent down DOES play a role for sure. I'm sure Detroit guys think Helm is better than vets like Kirk Maltby and Tomas Kopecky, but he doesn't make a big enough difference to jettison any of those guys. Chipchura is in that situation with us. Even if he is better than Dandenault, it's not enough to rid ourselves of a player who still helps us in a different manor. Next year, when for purely financial reasons we can't keep the current 23 man roster together, Chipchura is in line to be the first guy promoted.

[CerebusClone]

You really can't see it, can you?

Right now, Dandy is still more useful than Chipchura. Last time I checked, Chips couldnt play RW or D. So saying that Dandy is only there because of his status as a francophone -- rather than giving him credit for what he has over Chipchura on a purely hockey level -- is either shear bad faith or bias. Do you understand what I'm saying? Chips is not as good as you think he is, and Dandeneault is better than you think he is. But you can't see it, so you have to find some explanation as to why Dandy is in the NHL and Chips in the AHL, and all you can come up with is some linguistic issue.

Be honest and just say you personnaly dont like Dandeneault and Begin and you love Chipchura more. Stop trying to find circumvultated pro-francophone discrimination conspiracy theories to explain why your tastes doesnt match reality.

Oops... I forgot that your opinions are the truth... so we'll just leave it at because there really is no point.

And just to clarify something on a end note, I didn’t actually mean to put Begin and Dandeneault together, I mentioned that I think that Chipchura and Lapierre deserve to play regularly, that Kostopoulos is currently playing great and deserves to stay, that Laraque fills a specific need, and so that in my opinion that only left Begin and Dandeneault for one role as a reserve player; what I guess I omitted to add is that I also think that Begin is a great asset on the penalty kill, and deserves to stay because of the good job he’s done for us over the last few years, so obviously I think Dandeneault is the odd-man out.

[BTH]

I think it has more to do with respect for Dandenault. Three offseasons ago, he turned down a bigger offer to come play with us. For two straight years he played the entire season, usually on D, sometimes playing as a forward when we needed him there. Then last year, he lost his spot on D and became a permanent forward on the fourth line. For the first couple of months, he was one of the heroes of the team. Later in the season, he cooled down, was benched for a couple of games and started to complain to Carbonneau/the media. He found his way back into the line-up and was used i nthe playoffs over younger players.

This year is the last year on his contract and it's pretty much understood that he won't be back next year. He's also lost his spot on both defence and at forward so he serves no real purpose to the team other than being an abnormally fast 4th liner. But - Gainey remembers 3 years ago, when Dandenault took less money to sign a contract with the Canadiens. With that contract, Dandy's promising he's going to play his best hockey for us and Gainey's promising he's going to give him that chance. I don't think after 2 seasons of being a dependable defenceman and then a third of being a hardworking veteran, Gainey wants to show him any disrespect. They're giving him every opportunity to succeed.

We're probably better off with Chipchura. But is Chipchura better off with us? If his only options are being a core player for the Bulldogs and taking Mathieu Dandenault's 12/13th forward role on the Habs, I think he's better off on the farm.

[ShortHanded]

Cerebus is entitled to believe that Chipchura is a better player than others on the team. People within the Habs' brass could very well think the same way. I'll use the Detroit example again with Darren Helm... Detroit thought he was good enough to play in last year's playoffs but not good enough to start 2008-09 with the team. Convenience of being sent down DOES play a role for sure. I'm sure Detroit guys think Helm is better than vets like Kirk Maltby and Tomas Kopecky, but he doesn't make a big enough difference to jettison any of those guys. Chipchura is in that situation with us. Even if he is better than Dandenault, it's not enough to rid ourselves of a player who still helps us in a different manor. Next year, when for purely financial reasons we can't keep the current 23 man roster together, Chipchura is in line to be the first guy promoted.

All good points saskhab...the only thing is that I suspect next year, Patches will be here before chips, but I also figure there'll be room for both of them...

I think it has more to do with respect for Dandenault. Three offseasons ago, he turned down a bigger offer to come play with us. For two straight years he played the entire season, usually on D, sometimes playing as a forward when we needed him there. Then last year, he lost his spot on D and became a permanent forward on the fourth line. For the first couple of months, he was one of the heroes of the team. Later in the season, he cooled down, was benched for a couple of games and started to complain to Carbonneau/the media. He found his way back into the line-up and was used i nthe playoffs over younger players.

This year is the last year on his contract and it's pretty much understood that he won't be back next year. He's also lost his spot on both defence and at forward so he serves no real purpose to the team other than being an abnormally fast 4th liner. But - Gainey remembers 3 years ago, when Dandenault took less money to sign a contract with the Canadiens. With that contract, Dandy's promising he's going to play his best hockey for us and Gainey's promising he's going to give him that chance. I don't think after 2 seasons of being a dependable defenceman and then a third of being a hardworking veteran, Gainey wants to show him any disrespect. They're giving him every opportunity to succeed.

We're probably better off with Chipchura. But is Chipchura better off with us? If his only options are being a core player for the Bulldogs and taking Mathieu Dandenault's 12/13th forward role on the Habs, I think he's better off on the farm.

I think I pretty much agree with everything you said here BTH... I'm bummed out because I just downright like Chips and am annoyed with Dandy... but I can see the position Gainey's in, and it's not so bad for Chips. there is a light at the end of the tunnel, either injuries/trades this year or a really really good chance to make the big club next year....

[BTH]

I don't really see an opportunity for Chips this season. Even if Dandenault gets traded, he'd still be the 13th forward and it wouldn't be worth keeping him around when he could be playing key minutes in Hamilton.

With all the expiring contracts next year, he should be able to grab a spot, especially with Lang opening up a spot for another centre. If Chipchura misses the team next season, then we'll have passed him by and we'll have missed out on a prospect that could have been a lot more.

[Wamsley01]

I don't understand how the Canadiens could be responsible for ruining Yann Danis' career? Lost motivation?

What is Tim Thomas' excuse? Martin St. Louis? Why did they continue to be motivated? I am sure they

had a hell of a lot more things happen to them then having their management leave them in the minors til

they were 22, or force you to play out your contract and outperform 3 other goalies.

Danis was not better than Huet, Price or Halak. Why the hell would he look at the Canadiens for fault?

Play your ######ing ass off and prove them wrong. As far as I am concerned he should take your perceived

slight and use it as motivation to show the Canadiens they made a mistake.

Why in hell should an organization who invests years of scouting, drafts a player, invests in that player

allow him walk because he has not proven beyond a doubt he is a pro at 22? A player can walk wherever the

hell he wants after 7 years or 27 years of age and now you want to give them even more power.

Chips is not being screwed here. It is the way it is. If he doesn't like it, raise the level of your game

or demand a trade. Otherwise, tough shit.

And, the French/English thing is getting old

Edited October 17, 2008 by Wamsley01

[HABBER-oooooKNOWS]

I don't understand how the Canadiens could be responsible for ruining Yann Danis' career? Lost motivation?

What is Tim Thomas' excuse? Martin St. Louis? Why did they continue to be motivated? I am sure they

had a hell of a lot more things happen to them then having their management leave them in the minors til

they were 22, or force you to play out your contract and outperform 3 other goalies.

Danis was not better than Huet, Price or Halak. Why the hell would he look at the Canadiens for fault?

Play your ######ing ass off and prove them wrong. As far as I am concerned he should take your perceived

slight and use it as motivation to show the Canadiens they made a mistake.

Why in hell should an organization who invests years of scouting, drafts a player, invests in that player

allow him walk because he has not proven beyond a doubt he is a pro at 22? A player can walk wherever the

hell he wants after 7 years or 27 years of age and now you want to give them even more power.

Chips is not being screwed here. It is the way it is. If he doesn't like it, raise the level of your game

or demand a trade. Otherwise, tough shit.

And, the French/English thing is getting old

Not to mention Carbo and Gainey have a way better angle on this whole thing. These are hard decisions for everyone. I really don't understand the whole "CHIPCHURA CASE" softies around here. Knowing they would be the first ones Shlting on his head if he was to stay and play poorly or loose one too many game deciding face-offs.

In so many posts I see you people end your comments with "In Gainey we Trust" Well? What's the problem? The situation will resolve itself in due time and I'm sure Chips has a better grip on what he needs to do then any of you guys. Kudos to Laps for stepping up. It's that inner competition we have that will bring the best out of all our players. Feeling sorry for Chips on these boards like many of you do is what's getting old. The french/english thing will never go away well not until Texas and Quebec are their own countries, but I guess that's a whole different can of worms.

Chips will figure it out....... In Gainey we trust? Maybe? :puke:

[CerebusClone]

And, the French/English thing is getting old

All I said is that Dandeneault was a beloved forth liner, I didn't even say (or meant) that it was by Gainey himself. I'm sure he couldn't care any less, but I'm also sure some people would look down on this, and Gainey is no doubt aware of that. This combined with his contract, and what BTH mentioned about not wanting to get rid of a player who accepted to come here when no one else did are no doubt factors in the fact that Dandeneault is still here today. This is what I call politics.

And why did I mention he's a beloved francophone, simply because he has so many people defending him even though he's an overpaid veteran who hasn't delivered what was expected of him... players such as Dackell, Samsonov, Bonk, Sundstrom, Garth Murray or even future Hall-of-Famers like Gilmour and Linden have been heavily criticized for much less... I'm quite sure that most (not all) of the people who defend Dandeneault so much wouldn't if he were just some marginal Russian player who got a long-term nearly 2-million a year contract. Because of this, I do believe it's a lot easier for Bob Gainey to waive or sent down a player like Downey and Murray than a player like Dandeneault.

I might be wrong, but I don't think it's far fetched.. just like people in Quebec can be tougher on higher-end francophone players, they are also more tolerant towards marginal francophone players who work hard (ex. Murray was a useless bum, but Begin was the hearth and soul of the Canadiens). And it's just a personal observation, certainly nothing racist.

Anyways...

[Wamsley01]

All I said is that Dandeneault was a beloved forth liner, I didn't even say (or meant) that it was by Gainey himself. I'm sure he couldn't care any less, but I'm also sure some people would look down on this, and Gainey is no doubt aware of that. This combined with his contract, and what BTH mentioned about not wanting to get rid of a player who accepted to come here when no one else did are no doubt factors in the fact that Dandeneault is still here today. This is what I call politics.

And why did I mention he's a beloved francophone, simply because he has so many people defending him even though he's an overpaid veteran who hasn't delivered what was expected of him... players such as Dackell, Samsonov, Bonk, Sundstrom, Garth Murray or even future Hall-of-Famers like Gilmour and Linden have been heavily criticized for much less... I'm quite sure that most (not all) of the people who defend Dandeneault so much wouldn't if he were just some marginal Russian player who got a long-term nearly 2-million a year contract. Because of this, I do believe it's a lot easier for Bob Gainey to waive or sent down a player like Downey and Murray than a player like Dandeneault.

I might be wrong, but I don't think it's far fetched.. just like people in Quebec can be tougher on higher-end francophone players, they are also more tolerant towards marginal francophone players who work hard (ex. Murray was a useless bum, but Begin was the hearth and soul of the Canadiens). And it's just a personal observation, certainly nothing racist.

Anyways...

Not aimed at you or accusing you of being biased. I just hate listening to it on either side.

Lats made the team because he is french, Koivu is underappreciated because he isn't, etc etc.

It is boring to me.