Commandant Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I like the deal a lot, as we've all said, the Habs need a legit goalie prospect and Tokarski gives them that. I'd give him a shot at the backup role next season. In the meantime, I'd still also draft a goalie cause a newly drafted guy is still 3/4 years away from developping into a backup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I like the deal a lot, as we've all said, the Habs need a legit goalie prospect and Tokarski gives them that. I'd give him a shot at the backup role next season. In the meantime, I'd still also draft a goalie cause a newly drafted guy is still 3/4 years away from developping into a backup If I remember correctly, Montreal has three second round picks. If one isn't used for a trade, you can definitely use one on a goaltender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Goalie is pretty deep in this draft with Fucale, Spencer Martin, Comrie, and Jarry in the CHL. Then you have the US NTDP guys and the Euros. You can probably get a decent goalie prospect to develop with your third round pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadmaxim Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) In response to the Thibault questions. History may not be terribly kind to him, but I always liked him, & thought the overall "failure" his Montreal stint is considered is more the organizations fault. And no, I've not forgotten the playoff implosions. The best numbers during a season won't save someone who plays that badly in the postseason. But overall,... When he came over from Colorado, he was what, 20? The numbers he put up that season were excellent, outstanding, really, considering where he was traded to, & who he was replacing under outrageous media attention. W/ The Habs, 23-13- 2.83- .913 in 40 games. Losing record in the playoffs, yes, Best performance? Nope. But considering age, situation, etc....not the absolute worst, & certainly still bright hope for the future. Next season, the only season he played 60 + games, like a legit everyday guy plays? If I'm not mistaken, the organization dumps the veteran backup, Jablonski, who was clearly the #2 goalie. Bring up Theodore, a challenge to the future #1 spot, & did Tremblay not procede with "playing the hot hand" thing? I recall him pitting the 2 against each other for starts by who he thought was playing best? If I'm remembering incorrectly, please correct me. So now, instead of standing behind a kid in his early 20's. replacing Roy in the hockey media capital of the world after an excellent first season, take away his clear #1 status, cut the vet backup, & pit him against another young, 20 something local kid for playing time? Again, if I'm mistaken correct me, but did Tremblay also, several times, not name a starter until gameday? All things considered, Theodore put up the same basic numbers Jablonski did, but numbers don't tell the whole story. The damage the organization did to Jocelyn, the mishandling of him, is my issue. Theo wasn't ready, & Thibault just got piled on more by his own team, while the media now had even more to run with. The quotes from anonymous teammates in the press about goaltending being the issue w/ the team, I'm sure, were devastating. And,totally overblown. His won lost record was 22-21-11. Not sexy. However, consider this. Through the Tremblay/media circus going on around him. He faced the 9th most shots in the league. I believe at one point, MTL was giving up 35 shots per game on average. Among the goalies who were top 10 in shots faced, he was 5th in Save %, & 7th in GAA. Of course, the playoff implosion marred all this. Rightfully so. Again, no regular season numbers trump playoff meltdowns of this magnitude. And the writing was likely n the wall beginning here, But again, I'm talking overall. Next season, new coach, bring in Andy Moog to mentor...Rollie Melanson too. Small playoff sample, but still same results. I'm not saying he would've been another Roy...not by a long shot. And Theo was wonderful for a long time, so he was, in fact, the future of the team in nets. And I'm not letting Jocelyn off the hook. He had a legit shot w/ the Hawks after, & turned out to be a very good, but not star, everyday goalie. His career numbers are nothing to be ashamed of at all, regular season, anyway. I just can't help that think the goalie situation was mishandled so badly in 96-97, that it had to affect him, & all the unnecessary garbage piled on played a part in that meltdown. Edited February 17, 2013 by tadmaxim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 In response to the Thibault questions. History may not be terribly kind to him, but I always liked him, & thought the "failure" his Montreal stint is considered is more the organizations fault. When he came over from Colorado, he was what, 20? The numbers he put up that season were excellent, outstanding, really, considering where he was traded to, & who he was replacing under outrageous media attention. W/ The Habs, 23-13- 2.83- .913 in 40 games. Next season, the only season he played 60 + games, like a legit everyday guy plays? If I'm not mistaken, the organization dumps the veteran backup, Jablonski, who was clearly the #2 goalie. Bring up Theodore, a challenge to the future #1 spot, & did Tremblay not procede with "playing the hot hand" thing? I recall him pitting the 2 against each other for starts by who he thought was playing best? If I'm remembering incorrectly, please correct me. So now, instead of standing behind a kid in his early 20's. replacing Roy in the hockey media capital of the world after an excellent first season, take away his clear #1 status, cut the vet backup, & pit him against another young, 20 something local kid for playing time? Again, if I'm mistaken correct me, but did Tremblay also, several times, not name a starter until gameday? All things considered, Theodore put up the same basic numbers Jablonski did, but numbers don't tell the whole story. The damage the organization did to Jocelyn, the mishandling of him, is my issue. Theo wasn't ready, & Thibault just got piled on more by his own team, while the media now had even more to run with. The quotes from anonymous teammates in the press about goaltending being the issue w/ the team, I'm sure, were devastating. And,totally overblown. His won lost record was 22-21-11. Not sexy. However, consider this. Through the Tremblay/media circus going on around him. He faced the 9th most shots in the league. I believe at one point, MTL was giving up 35 shots per game on average. Among the goalies who were top 10 in shots faced, he was 5th in Save %, & 7th in GAA. Next season, new coach, bring in Andy Moog, & as far as I'm concerned, the air was out of Jocelyn by then. He got screwed, plain & simple. His short tenure w/ the Habs was one of, if not the most, ridiculous, amateurish, clown show periods in team history with the goalie situation. I'm not saying he would've been another Roy...not by a long shot. And Theo was wonderful for a long time, so he was, in fact, the future of the team in nets. And I'm not letting Jocelyn off the hook entirely. He had a legit shot w/ the Hawks, & turned out to be a very good, but not star, everyday goalie. His career numbers are nothing to be ashamed of at all But he got SCREWED w/ the Habs.. Nice analysis of one of the most inept periods in Habs' history. Houle was bad, but Mario Tremblay was even worse - a completely unqualified idiot behind the bench, with cataclysmic, franchise-shattering consequences for the organization. Ironically, after years in Minny actually learning the job at Lemaire's knee, he would probably be a decent coach now. But Thibault was ultimately not a particularly good goalie. Stats aren't everything, but a career save % of .904 seems fairly representative of his game. He was average. I remember when he came up with the Nordiques, all the French commentators - drooling over francophone talent like they always do - were saying he was the next big thing; but watching him play I was totally unimpressed. His overall career gives no reason to change my initial impression. And I always suspected that the reason Houle accepted him back in the Roy trade had to do, not with careful analysis from expert scouts, but from mindlessly swallowing this received French-media consensus on Thibault's supposed potential excellence. That's what happens when your GM is unqualified. You're totally right, though, that Thibault got the shaft from the Habs. But even if he hadn't, I doubt he would have been anything more than a transitional goalie before Theodore took over, sort of a 1990s version of Richard Sevigny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I think the other reason the habs were high on him was that Serge Savard had tried to deal Roy to the Avs a year earlier, but talks broke down when Savard wanted thibault and nolen, but the Avs were only willing to move Fiset. Looking back it seems ridiculous that we went from Nolen to rucincky and kovelenko. The Avs had already moved Nolen for Ozelinsh, but anything less than goes forsberg or Kamensky back was dumb. If trading Roy wasn't bad enough, WE ended up throwing in Keane. As you've said, houle was inept, but tremblay was an idiot! He should have to return his cup rings for what he did to this franchise!!! Nice analysis of one of the most inept periods in Habs' history. Houle was bad, but Mario Tremblay was even worse - a completely unqualified idiot behind the bench, with cataclysmic, franchise-shattering consequences for the organization. Ironically, after years in Minny actually learning the job at Lemaire's knee, he would probably be a decent coach now. But Thibault was ultimately not a particularly good goalie. Stats aren't everything, but a career save % of .904 seems fairly representative of his game. He was average. I remember when he came up with the Nordiques, all the French commentators - drooling over francophone talent like they always do - were saying he was the next big thing; but watching him play I was totally unimpressed. His overall career gives no reason to change my initial impression. And I always suspected that the reason Houle accepted him back in the Roy trade had to do, not with careful analysis from expert scouts, but from mindlessly swallowing this received French-media consensus on Thibault's supposed potential excellence. That's what happens when your GM is unqualified. You're totally right, though, that Thibault got the shaft from the Habs. But even if he hadn't, I doubt he would have been anything more than a transitional goalie before Theodore took over, sort of a 1990s version of Richard Sevigny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I think the other reason the habs were high on him was that Serge Savard had tried to deal Roy to the Avs a year earlier, but talks broke down when Savard wanted thibault and nolen, but the Avs were only willing to move Fiset. Looking back it seems ridiculous that we went from Nolen to rucincky and kovelenko. The Avs had already moved Nolen for Ozelinsh, but anything less than goes forsberg or Kamensky back was dumb. If trading Roy wasn't bad enough, WE ended up throwing in Keane. As you've said, houle was inept, but tremblay was an idiot! He should have to return his cup rings for what he did to this franchise!!! Ha ha, don't remind me of Houle's infamous 'throw ins.' Keane...Conroy...Tucker...the mind reels. But Keane in particular, it's as though the Avs were doing us a favour in taking Roy off our hands Roy for Nolan and Thibault wouldn't have been a great trade either, but at least we'd get a major power forward back!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Ha ha, don't remind me of Houle's infamous 'throw ins.' Keane...Conroy...Tucker...the mind reels. But Keane in particular, it's as though the Avs were doing us a favour in taking Roy off our hands Roy for Nolan and Thibault wouldn't have been a great trade either, but at least we'd get a major power forward back!! I agree. I was in university when I heard the habs traded roy to the Avs. I asked him who we got back, Forsburg, Sakic, Kamensky??? I was speechless when i heard the actual return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I agree. I was in university when I heard the habs traded roy to the Avs. I asked him who we got back, Forsburg, Sakic, Kamensky??? I was speechless when i heard the actual return. You just brought back memories! I was in the Multi-Mag store on deMaisonneuve and Guy (across from Concordia) flipping through magazines when I heard about the trade over the radio that was playing in the background. Never gonna forget the scene of them stepping off the private jet in Denver..surreal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I agree. I was in university when I heard the habs traded roy to the Avs. I asked him who we got back, Forsburg, Sakic, Kamensky??? I was speechless when i heard the actual return. What's funny is how the trade was defended. It's the same thing still being said today. The "potential" was more important than a guy who proved himself. Rucinsky was 23, had some size and was projected to be a top six forward (which he was on the Canadiens). Kovalenko was a smallish power forward who everyone thought was going to become the perfect goalie screen. He did score 30 for Edmonton after we traded him but nothing else. Thibault was only 20 years old when we traded for him. 10th Overall pick. What better to get in return for Roy? Diamond prospect French Canadian goalie! As a kid I believed all of the articles about Roy being washed up at 30 years old. When you then find out that he was going to be traded by the Canadiens in the summer of 1993 had we not won the Cup, it gives you some better perspective on how Montreal eats their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadmaxim Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I think the other reason the habs were high on him was that Serge Savard had tried to deal Roy to the Avs a year earlier, but talks broke down when Savard wanted thibault and nolen, but the Avs were only willing to move Fiset. Looking back it seems ridiculous that we went from Nolen to rucincky and kovelenko. The Avs had already moved Nolen for Ozelinsh, but anything less than goes forsberg or Kamensky back was dumb. If trading Roy wasn't bad enough, WE ended up throwing in Keane. As you've said, houle was inept, but tremblay was an idiot! He should have to return his cup rings for what he did to this franchise!!! I've often wondered about that proposed Savard deal, & why Savard wanted Fiset instead of Thibault. I've never heard or read about him wanting Thibault instead, along w/ Nolan. Do you recall where you came across that info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I've often wondered about that proposed Savard deal, & why Savard wanted Fiset instead of Thibault. I've never heard or read about him wanting Thibault instead, along w/ Nolan. Do you recall where you came across that info? It was reported by Andre Savard himself. They had a deal for Nolan, Fiset and a pick and Andre Savard was fired by Ronald Corey before they could file it with the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 It was reported by Andre Savard himself. They had a deal for Nolan, Fiset and a pick and Andre Savard was fired by Ronald Corey before they could file it with the NHL. Correct. While I thought that was too small of a return, it was a hell of a lot better than we ended up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebo64 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Tremblay,for a rookies coach w/o other coaching experience when he was placed on the hot seat, did he not have a winning record? I do not have the stats but I thought I read he had a winning record, not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Tremblay,for a rookies coach w/o other coaching experience when he was placed on the hot seat, did he not have a winning record? I do not have the stats but I thought I read he had a winning record, not sure. The Canadiens made the playoffs in the two seasons he coached so yes, he had a winning record. The problem was that Montreal had one of the best top sixes in the NHL in those seasons and Tremblay had no idea how to use them properly. That team should have been scoring 300 goals a season but wasn't. It wasn't just Roy he ran out but Brashear as well. To be fair to Tremblay, he had a terrible D and Thibault was merely average. That said, the forward corps on the Canadiens was excellent. The 1995-1996 team with Roy could have gone places in the 96 post-season with a decent coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 The Canadiens made the playoffs in the two seasons he coached so yes, he had a winning record. The problem was that Montreal had one of the best top sixes in the NHL in those seasons and Tremblay had no idea how to use them properly. That team should have been scoring 300 goals a season but wasn't. It wasn't just Roy he ran out but Brashear as well. To be fair to Tremblay, he had a terrible D and Thibault was merely average. That said, the forward corps on the Canadiens was excellent. The 1995-1996 team with Roy could have gone places in the 96 post-season with a decent coach. Yeah, Serge Savard left behind a team with a TON of front-line talent, some good prospects in the pipeline, and an all-time great goalie. The D was a work in progress, admittedly, but we had plenty of assets to move in order to correct that. It took a while for the Dumbass Duo (Houle and Tremblay) to utterly dismantle what they inherited. As for Tremblay's 'winning record,' this was the coaching genius who saw fit to drive Roy out of town. What more proof of incompetence do you need. His teams (kinda like Carbo's) also had zero defensive structure. That wasn't just about the players on D. It was about the coach not having the faintest idea what the hell he was doing. Couldn't have been easy on the Separatist Blueberry either. I remember at one point his wife publicly claiming that his job was destroying his health. There were rumours of him puking from the stress. Somehow I never felt the slightest pity for that piece of sh*t of a coach. I did feel a twinge of pity for Reggie Houle during the 100th year celebration when he expressed anxiety that the fans would boo him when he went on the ice. Houle was ultimately even more of a franchise-destroying clown than Mario, but at least he came off as a decent fellow rather than an egomaniac trying futilely to bully guys like Brashear and Roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Had Roy stayed and Montreal never traded for Recchi, Montreal would have probably contended for the Cup again in 1995-1996. That was the year Florida went to the Cup finals against Colorado when inexplicably beating Pittsburgh in a seven game series. Adding Bure and Koivu was a lot like us adding Galchenyuk and Gallagher this season. The other problem with Tremblay is he LOVED his goons/enforcers. Stevenson, Odelein, Murray and Brashear with three of four playing pretty much every game. His reliance on them was what lead to Craig Conroy being underused and eventually tossed as a throw in for the Turgeon to St. Louis trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadmaxim Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I wonder if when Dustin was traded, he looked at some of the sites to see what fans were saying, & could've stumbled upon this conversation. Poor kid, seeing there were 2 pages, then wondering why the hell more than half of it was about Jocelyn Thibault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I wonder if when Dustin was traded, he looked at some of the sites to see what fans were saying, & could've stumbled upon this conversation. Poor kid, seeing there were 2 pages, then wondering why the hell more than half of it was about Jocelyn Thibault. Well, we've been known to provide unique commentary from time to time, it would just make his visit here more memorable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well, we've been known to provide unique commentary from time to time, it would just make his visit here more memorable... I'm just happy he scared Robert Mayer to Switzerland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I'm just happy he scared Robert Mayer to Switzerland He didn't, that deal had been unofficially agreed upon prior to the trade happening. Biel's goalie (Reto Berra) wants to come to the NHL next season, they've been looking for a replacement for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have to say, I'm a little confused by this conversation. Why in the world are we talking about acquiring another younger back up? Budaj is getting the job done, and you know that with Budaj as the back up, there will NEVER be a goalie controversy. Budaj knows he's the back-up and that's the end of that. If you bring up a younger back-up who still has hopes of becoming a number 1, then you're creating a recipe for a disaster. What if Carey has a couple of bad games? Bang! Goalie controversy! Haven't we had enough goalie controversies with this team? Carey is gonna be our number 1 for the next decade. There's absolutely no need for the habs to waste a draft pick on a goalie right now. We can look into that 5 years from now when Carey will be 30 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bostonhabs Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have to say, I'm a little confused by this conversation. Why in the world are we talking about acquiring another younger back up? Budaj is getting the job done, and you know that with Budaj as the back up, there will NEVER be a goalie controversy. Budaj knows he's the back-up and that's the end of that. If you bring up a younger back-up who still has hopes of becoming a number 1, then you're creating a recipe for a disaster. What if Carey has a couple of bad games? Bang! Goalie controversy! Haven't we had enough goalie controversies with this team? Carey is gonna be our number 1 for the next decade. There's absolutely no need for the habs to waste a draft pick on a goalie right now. We can look into that 5 years from now when Carey will be 30 years old. See i find it funny most people don't want a goalie controversies but they like it when young players challenge vets for spots. To me i think it is great to have players push others regardless of who it is. It makes players give their all or be moved down in the order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bostonhabs Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 See i find it funny most people don't want a goalie controversies but they like it when young players challenge vets for spots. To me i think it is great to have players push others regardless of who it is. It makes players give their all or be moved down in the order. If they make the playoffs and price get hurt how far are we going? there is quite a few other teams that have two very good goalies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Carey is gonna be our number 1 for the next decade. There's absolutely no need for the habs to waste a draft pick on a goalie right now. We can look into that 5 years from now when Carey will be 30 years old. It takes longer for a drafted goalie to reach the NHL than a drafted skater though. Draft one this year in say the 2nd or 3rd round and he probably won't be NHL ready until Price is 30 or 31 and at the end of his present contract. It's also normal for any young goalie to apprentice as an NHL backup for a year or two as well. So if the Habs were to draft a good goalie in June, he likely wouldn't be ready to contend for a starting role for a good 6-8 years. It'd be worth drafting a goalie now I'd say (heck, there's no guarantee whoever they take would pan out either), they've gotta get something in the pipeline with Mayer leaving and Delmas (barring a great 2013-14 season) likely gone next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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